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OverSword

Is this the truth about Abrahamic religions?

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I'd say so. The Abrahamic religions are quite nihilistic and destructive. Probably the harshest in judgment as well. 

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Wow. He sure wiped up the floor with that guy. 

Fish in a barrel. I almost feel sorry for him. 

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Posted (edited)

Just look into that guy's eyes for a moment. You see the hate just seething in them? He's probably sitting there thinking how he would have liked to choke Hitchens out. 

Edited by ChaosRose
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What did he expect? What's the point in listening to opinions you already discount? A religious person should put such erudite drivel on ignore, but fate has already taken care of the issue.

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The guy asking the question really looks like the stereotypical american south christian. He's only missing a pickup truck and a confederate flag :rofl:

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Posted (edited)

Yes it is true, but it goes back to before 'Abrahamic' times and back to where the 'Abrahamics' got a lot of their religious input from .  In  Zoroastrianism there is a concept or 'Para-diz'.  originally it talks about a good king that developed a good system of governance, it was set up in a land that sounds good as well; clean water, pastures, mountains, sheltered valleys, etc.  Reading between the lines of scripture ( Avestas) it appears climate change disrupted the environment ( and some political problems with neighbours ), they moved the centre of their society further to the west, and then further west, until in historical times it ended up in modern day Turkey and then Iran.

Para-diz  was also known as 'Airyanem Vaeja ', the first nation mentioned in the Avesta  and the 'homeland' .  It is supposed by some to have been in the Pamir Mountain range.

This also gave rise to ideas about Shamballa  (to the people east of there ; the Tibetans    .... and it is interesting to note that people to the west of Pamirs  say wise men and knowledge came from the east, yet Tibetans say  they came from the west .

The idea passed on into Euro tradition as  'Shangri la ' .

It also passed on, in a different way to the religions that came out of it , ie. the 'Abrahamic religions'   .   It is a perversion based on the  this original concept, and another similar original concept  based on Zoroastrian  ' Fravashi' and 'Khvaranenah'  The aspect of the fravashi maintains, sustains and helps creation progressively move or evolve towards 'vahishtem anghuim and frasho-kereti, an ultimate and ideal future existence related to khvarenah in  ....  

  • The khvarenah is the archetype of the person one can grow to if allowed to grow to the limit of her or his capacity in grace, that is, in keeping with the fravashi.
  • The khvarenah is also a person's higher calling - their meaning in life.
  • Every human being is endowed with natural talents that can be harnessed and developed to achieve one's highest potential, one's latent destiny in life, or one's higher calling. Alternatively, through choice, these talents can be employed to achieve base ambitions.
  • A spenta mainyu - a brilliant, positive, constructive, and beneficent spirit - allows a person to perceive their higher calling.
  • An angra mainyu - a gloomy, negative, destructive, and harmful spirit - leaves a person vulnerable to base ambitions.
  • A spenta mainyu enables a person to choose asha, the path of goodness, and pursue her or his calling without expectation of reward.
  • The khvarenah is specific to a person and is different for each person.

The idea is  ( to put it in modern 'Thelemic' terms )  when each person finds and fulfils  their real inner purpose and true expression, they have an inner contentment and satisfaction with life. The more individuals live this way, the better the society is.  When the maximum individuals are doing it, its a great society, a new hope and vision.

So its a return to the 'great past', on  one hand, and a hope for future development to come, on the other.  But along the way it got polluted by greed, power, control , politics, jealousy, retribution .... all that 'other stuff'     ' normal'  people seem preoccupied with  ( angra mainyu ) .

Edited by back to earth
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First of all, not all Abrahamic religions are alike.  It’s like trying to compare softball to baseball.  In essence, there are obvious similarities but vastly different mindsets are involved.  The same thing here.  Islam is separate from Judeo-Christian.

 

Hitchens is inaccurate.  Much of what he says is basically the Muslim mindset.  It is this religion that actively seeks the end of the world.  That this life has no value.  A Christian will believe that this life is just as important as the next.  This life is used to prepare for the next.  Yes, there are those few Christians that actively seek the end of the world but that is not the basis of Christianity.  In Islam, Allah knows who is going to Hell or Paradise but will never make that choice for us.  In Christianity, GOD knows who is going to Hell or Heaven, but it is ultimately up to us in the decision we make.  You might think this is really subtle but it is reflective on the difference of mindset.  Definitely enough to confuse an atheist (or antitheist).  But if he thinks that these religions are evil because they are destructive then he must consider the laws of thermodynamics evil as well.  The universe will eventually come to an end.  Because of that, do we try to destroy the Earth?

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Kinda hard to care about this life when you're spending it getting brownie point for heaven. 

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2 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

First of all, not all Abrahamic religions are alike.  It’s like trying to compare softball to baseball.  In essence, there are obvious similarities but vastly different mindsets are involved.  The same thing here.  Islam is separate from Judeo-Christian.

Of course religions are different .... or we would not have .....  ummmm ... different religions  :rolleyes:   

But a religion evolves from and is built upon the ones that preceeded it, that is, or should be ,      very obvious .

2 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

 

Hitchens is inaccurate.  Much of what he says is basically the Muslim mindset.  It is this religion that actively seeks the end of the world.  That this life has no value.  A Christian will believe that this life is just as important as the next.  This life is used to prepare for the next.  Yes, there are those few Christians that actively seek the end of the world but that is not the basis of Christianity.  In Islam, Allah knows who is going to Hell or Paradise but will never make that choice for us.  In Christianity, GOD knows who is going to Hell or Heaven, but it is ultimately up to us in the decision we make.  You might think this is really subtle but it is reflective on the difference of mindset.  Definitely enough to confuse an atheist (or antitheist).  But if he thinks that these religions are evil because they are destructive then he must consider the laws of thermodynamics evil as well.  The universe will eventually come to an end.  Because of that, do we try to destroy the Earth?

 

I think you missed the point.   Christianity is a death cult , a religion of 'the aeon of the dying God' .... if anything Christianity is the modern ultimate death cult ... just look at their major icon , it is a tortured and dying man .... not a resurrected man .

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2 hours ago, back to earth said:

Of course religions are different .... or we would not have .....  ummmm ... different religions  :rolleyes:   

But a religion evolves from and is built upon the ones that preceeded it, that is, or should be ,      very obvious .

 

I think you missed the point.   Christianity is a death cult , a religion of 'the aeon of the dying God' .... if anything Christianity is the modern ultimate death cult ... just look at their major icon , it is a tortured and dying man .... not a resurrected man .

Hmmm, interesting point. 

 

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Its the old death cult that started with agriculture .... Osiris etc .  The death and rebirth of the Sun .    Everything seems based on it .     Its also a 'male energy' and full of 'Gods' . Before that, religions seemed based on life and birth and the 'female energy ' .

But now, there is a new energy .  Now we know the Sun does not die / set  .... travel through the underworld ... and be reborn at dawn  ( with a retinue of expensive priests to 'make it happen'  ;) ) ,  that  schemata  was also applied to the human 'soul' and death .

But now we know the dynamics of  day and night and the Earth's rotation and the dynamics of the Solar system and stars ( the Sun)  .....   and more about  plant genetics, seeds and hybrids.

Yet, I know of only one teaching that takes these modern dynamics  and the psychological interplay of the old story and dynamics ( still relevant' in our heads ' ) into account and puts it up for consideration / meditation  . .

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6 hours ago, back to earth said:

Of course religions are different .... or we would not have .....  ummmm ... different religions  :rolleyes:  

I don’t think that is the point of “Abrahamic” religion.  I think the usage is more about being somewhat cookie cutter.  In this case, they are not the same.  “Abrahamic” is a poor descriptor.  Abraham was just a common progenitor.

 

But a religion evolves from and is built upon the ones that preceeded it, that is, or should be ,      very obvious .

Quite right.  In the first 11 chapters of Genesis, there was just one language, one religion.  Actually, faith was knowledge.  Then at the Tower of Babel, Man was divided by language and hence religion.  There is evidence of religion going back to 40,000bce, if not the original faith then perhaps first generation??  After that, Ancient Egyptian, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, and Judaism made up the second generation.  Christianity was a direct offshoot of Judaism, and with Islam and Buddhism was third generation.  But Islam claims to be the original.  By evolution of religions, this isn’t true.

 

I think you missed the point.   Christianity is a death cult , a religion of 'the aeon of the dying God' .... if anything Christianity is the modern ultimate death cult ... just look at their major icon , it is a tortured and dying man .... not a resurrected man .

Christianity is not a death cult but quite the opposite.  Christianity is the victory over death.  Don’t be confused between Church dogma and faith.  These are two separate things.  But the crucifix represents life.  Many religions records deaths of gods usually through battle, but how many sacrifice themselves for Man?  That is an expression of love, not death.

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57 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

I don’t think that is the point of “Abrahamic” religion.  I think the usage is more about being somewhat cookie cutter.  In this case, they are not the same.  “Abrahamic” is a poor descriptor.  Abraham was just a common progenitor.

 

The point of it ?    Its a descriptive title . Yes, Abraham was, supposedly, the  originator,  hence the name 'Abrahamic religion'  .

 

57 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Quite right.  In the first 11 chapters of Genesis, there was just one language, one religion.  Actually, faith was knowledge.  Then at the Tower of Babel, Man was divided by language and hence religion.  There is evidence of religion going back to 40,000bce, if not the original faith then perhaps first generation??  After that, Ancient Egyptian, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, and Judaism made up the second generation.  Christianity was a direct offshoot of Judaism, and with Islam and Buddhism was third generation.  But Islam claims to be the original.  By evolution of religions, this isn’t true.

 

They are all 'true' and original if one ascribes to progressive revelation. The problem is they all say the progressive revelation ended with  ' their '  prophet  .

 

57 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Christianity is not a death cult but quite the opposite.  Christianity is the victory over death.  Don’t be confused between Church dogma and faith.  These are two separate things.  But the crucifix represents life.  Many religions records deaths of gods usually through battle, but how many sacrifice themselves for Man?  That is an expression of love, not death.

Nope, sorry, a dying man on a cross or just a cross by itself represents death .  

Image result for simple grave

 

 

even an X  cross     '   xxx    '    .

  .    

 

Unless you drink

Image result for XXXX beer

and then its a slow death .

 

Most sacrifices were done 'for man'   , the 'nation', the tribe, the group,  a good harvest, etc .   Many are supposed to have gone willingly, to help others (and have immortal glory ' :)  )

Sacrificial ritual slaying  is an old throw back to the religion  before the Avestan  /  Vedic   split  .....   but I don't think they sacrificed people, let alone their own sons , it was mostly horses and cattle.

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On 8/22/2017 at 8:13 PM, back to earth said:

Yes it is true, but it goes back to before 'Abrahamic' times and back to where the 'Abrahamics' got a lot of their religious input from .  In  Zoroastrianism there is a concept or 'Para-diz'.  originally it talks about a good king that developed a good system of governance, it was set up in a land that sounds good as well; clean water, pastures, mountains, sheltered valleys, etc.  Reading between the lines of scripture ( Avestas) it appears climate change disrupted the environment ( and some political problems with neighbours ), they moved the centre of their society further to the west, and then further west, until in historical times it ended up in modern day Turkey and then Iran.

Para-diz  was also known as 'Airyanem Vaeja ', the first nation mentioned in the Avesta  and the 'homeland' .  It is supposed by some to have been in the Pamir Mountain range.

This also gave rise to ideas about Shamballa  (to the people east of there ; the Tibetans    .... and it is interesting to note that people to the west of Pamirs  say wise men and knowledge came from the east, yet Tibetans say  they came from the west .

The idea passed on into Euro tradition as  'Shangri la ' .

It also passed on, in a different way to the religions that came out of it , ie. the 'Abrahamic religions'   .   It is a perversion based on the  this original concept, and another similar original concept  based on Zoroastrian  ' Fravashi' and 'Khvaranenah'  The aspect of the fravashi maintains, sustains and helps creation progressively move or evolve towards 'vahishtem anghuim and frasho-kereti, an ultimate and ideal future existence related to khvarenah in  ....  

  • The khvarenah is the archetype of the person one can grow to if allowed to grow to the limit of her or his capacity in grace, that is, in keeping with the fravashi.
  • The khvarenah is also a person's higher calling - their meaning in life.
  • Every human being is endowed with natural talents that can be harnessed and developed to achieve one's highest potential, one's latent destiny in life, or one's higher calling. Alternatively, through choice, these talents can be employed to achieve base ambitions.
  • A spenta mainyu - a brilliant, positive, constructive, and beneficent spirit - allows a person to perceive their higher calling.
  • An angra mainyu - a gloomy, negative, destructive, and harmful spirit - leaves a person vulnerable to base ambitions.
  • A spenta mainyu enables a person to choose asha, the path of goodness, and pursue her or his calling without expectation of reward.
  • The khvarenah is specific to a person and is different for each person.

The idea is  ( to put it in modern 'Thelemic' terms )  when each person finds and fulfils  their real inner purpose and true expression, they have an inner contentment and satisfaction with life. The more individuals live this way, the better the society is.  When the maximum individuals are doing it, its a great society, a new hope and vision.

So its a return to the 'great past', on  one hand, and a hope for future development to come, on the other.  But along the way it got polluted by greed, power, control , politics, jealousy, retribution .... all that 'other stuff'     ' normal'  people seem preoccupied with  ( angra mainyu ) .

And to achieve ratush?

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Eh ?

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7 hours ago, back to earth said:

Its the old death cult that started with agriculture .... Osiris etc

Is this where the wheat symbol originally came from? You'd think I know this by now haha.

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Off on a tangent, read up last night

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Interesting reply.  I’m not sure if you didn’t read everything (not a whole lot to pay attention to in two posts) or you don’t comprehend some basic concepts?  Maybe my baseball analogy threw you a curve?  :)  I guess it doesn’t matter??

 

6 hours ago, back to earth said:

The point of it ?    Its a descriptive title . Yes, Abraham was, supposedly, the  originator,  hence the name 'Abrahamic religion'  .

Yes, it is a *descriptive* title but it is misleading.  The only thing that Islam and Christianity share as far as scripture/history goes is basically the first 25 chapters of Genesis (and not exactly the same).  There are nearly 1200 chapters in the Bible.  I don’t have a statistical breakdown of the common text in the 114 Surahs of the Quran but I would imagine that it is even less.  From this alone, they are more different than alike.  This is without saying anything about the disbelief in Islam of the Homoousion of Jesus.

 

They are all 'true' and original if one ascribes to progressive revelation. The problem is they all say the progressive revelation ended with  ' their '  prophet  .

That’s incorrect.  It is true for Islam.  For Judaism, they are still waiting for another (final?) prophet and in Christianity, anyone can be a prophet.  Although, many will be false.

 

Nope, sorry, a dying man on a cross or just a cross by itself represents death .  

This too is incorrect.  Jesus is not just a dying man on a cross.  You don’t understand the importance of that symbolism.  Now I must admit that I think that the Catholic Church made a poor choice in symbols just for the reason you have just shown.  The Church is certainly big on pushing a guilt trip with the idea that Jesus suffered for us, but the empty cross is perhaps more profound because it represents the empty tomb or the victory over death.  Yes, we have a dying man on a cross but from that cocoon, we get the Risen Savior.

Most sacrifices were done 'for man'   , the 'nation', the tribe, the group,  a good harvest, etc .   Many are supposed to have gone willingly, to help others (and have immortal glory '   )

Most sacrifices were of mortal Man to please their god.  Islam doesn’t believe in sacrifices so they can never understand Redemption and Salvation.  Judaism only partook in animal sacrifices.  But in Christianity, the blood sacrifice of GOD for the Redemption and Salvation of creation is something new.  Gods do not stoop to that level, except for one.  This sends a very important message.  One of life.

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12 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Buddhism was third generation

Buddhism is over 2.5 thousand years old, it's much older than both Islam and Christianity.

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19 minutes ago, Podo said:

Buddhism is over 2.5 thousand years old, it's much older than both Islam and Christianity.

It’s not an exact science and would make for an interesting OP of a new thread.  Yes, Buddhism is about 500 years older than Christianity.  In fact Buddha has been considered a Christ-like figure.  But because Buddhism had developed from within a Hindu framework, I consider it the generation after Hinduism.  I see no issue with a generation spanning a thousand years or more.  I am certainly open to other timelines and hierarchy.

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The absurdity of this thread is amazing.

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2 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

It’s not an exact science and would make for an interesting OP of a new thread.  Yes, Buddhism is about 500 years older than Christianity.  In fact Buddha has been considered a Christ-like figure.  But because Buddhism had developed from within a Hindu framework, I consider it the generation after Hinduism.  I see no issue with a generation spanning a thousand years or more.  I am certainly open to other timelines and hierarchy.

The Buddha is not thought of by all as Christ like. 

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Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

I am saying not every Buddhist thinks he was Christ like. I am one of them. 

Is that gonna work for you? 

Edited by Sherapy
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