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Guyver

Did Jesus Ever Actually Exist?

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I mean, I guess that pretty much sums up the question.  

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Probably not. At least in the way most people think.

There were likely many dudes named Jesus. There certainly are now. 

Now...does it really matter if there was no historical Jesus? Not that much. It could even be a divinely inspired story. Something that resonates so much with humanity that it keeps being retold over and over again through different cultures. 

If people get nothing out of it but the Golden Rule, then that's worthwhile. 

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Just now, XenoFish said:

In my personal opinion. The golden rule is all you need and nothing more.

Jesus is just another vehicle for that message, imo. One of many. 

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Technically.....his name would have been Yeshua ben Josef....though.....right?

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Posted (edited)

1 minute ago, Guyver said:

Technically.....his name would have been Yeshua ben Josef....though.....right?

If ya wanna split hairs. I was kinda frying bigger fish here.

Edited by ChaosRose
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1 minute ago, ChaosRose said:

Jesus is just another vehicle for that message, imo. One of many. 

Something that I can agree with. If you discard the bible as being a literal truth and take it as being a book of stories, then you realize each of those stories teaches different lessons. About perseverance, trust, hope, etc. The story of the good Samaritan is about being kind to strangers. Job deals with perseverance when all is lost. 

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1 minute ago, ChaosRose said:

I was kinda frying bigger fish here.

IT BURNS!!!!!!!

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6 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

Probably not. At least in the way most people think.

There were likely many dudes named Jesus. There certainly are now. 

Now...does it really matter if there was no historical Jesus? Not that much. It could even be a divinely inspired story. Something that resonates so much with humanity that it keeps being retold over and over again through different cultures. 

If people get nothing out of it but the Golden Rule, then that's worthwhile. 

I suppose that's right.  Treat others the way that you would like to be treated.  I mean, it's pretty good.  

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Just now, Guyver said:

I suppose that's right.  Treat others the way that you would like to be treated.  I mean, it's pretty good.  

Be awesome to each other. 

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Posted (edited)

Well, we have enough evidence of New Testament events from sources external to the Bible that historians generally agree- he was definitely a real person who lived from around 4 BC to A.D. 29 or so.

But yeah, the message matters.

Edited by Kickaha
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Just now, ChaosRose said:

Be awesome to each other. 

Even if other aholes are not always awesome to you!

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T8I86.gif

The sum of all religion at there most basic foundation is the golden rule. Do unto others as you'd have done to you. A simple rule to live by. 

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1 minute ago, Kickaha said:

Well, we have enough evidence of New Testament events from sources external to the Bible that historians generally agree- he was definitely a real person who lived from around 4 BC to A.D. 29 or so.

I thought the earliest known source was the Muratorian Fragment, and that goes back to around 170 AD.  Or am I missing something?  

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1 minute ago, Kickaha said:

Well, we have enough evidence of New Testament events from sources external to the Bible that historians generally agree- he was definitely a real person who lived from around 4 BC to A.D. 29 or so.

Historians do generally agree...without much evidence. And because it's taboo to actually question it too much. 

The bits they do have are very questionable. 

Ultimately, I think in grasping at straws to cling to a literal, historical Jesus...a lot of people miss the message. Which is be awesome to each other. 

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3 minutes ago, Kickaha said:

Well, we have enough evidence of New Testament events from sources external to the Bible that historians generally agree- he was definitely a real person who lived from around 4 BC to A.D. 29 or so.

Even if he was a real persons. It more like he gave a cliff notes version of Judaism. Probably with a few additions due to mixing of cultures. Not a miracle man.

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2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

T8I86.gif

The sum of all religion at there most basic foundation is the golden rule. Do unto others as you'd have done to you. A simple rule to live by. 

Excellent...that, too. :)

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Josephus being probably the most likely source of any accurate information doesn't really say jack about jesus.  Isn't that right?  I mean, I've got his complete works, and I've read sections (The Jewish Wars) a couple of times.....but oh.....I'd rather get punched in the throat than spend 50 hours of study on that work.  It's just so tedious.   

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1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

In my personal opinion. The golden rule is all you need and nothing more.

I could agree with this if I didn't think there was a plan and a future for humanity beyond this current time and place/dimension.  Oddly enough it is science that helps to bolster that belief.  With all that we seem on the cusp of understanding and possibly achieving, I find it hard to imagine that we'd be allowed to destroy it and ourselves because of our inherently flawed nature.  IOW, I believe we are not a random accident on the way to annihilation.

 

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4 minutes ago, and then said:

I could agree with this if I didn't think there was a plan and a future for humanity beyond this current time and place/dimension.  Oddly enough it is science that helps to bolster that belief.  With all that we seem on the cusp of understanding and possibly achieving, I find it hard to imagine that we'd be allowed to destroy it and ourselves because of our inherently flawed nature.  IOW, I believe we are not a random accident on the way to annihilation.

 

We could be. And it's also possible there's some universal consciousness we're all a part of and we return to.

One thing I'm certain of is that we don't need dogma to be decent to each other. 

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2 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

We could be. And it's also possible there's some universal consciousness we're all a part of and we return to.

One thing I'm certain of is that we don't need dogma to be decent to each other. 

I agree completely.  Religion has done more to separate people from each other than most things.  It CAN motivate the worst atrocities of all but that isn't the Creator's fault (IMO). I think the people who can't get to the place of trusting or believing in God are mostly influenced by their perceptions of the seeming randomness and futility of life here.  Inexplicable pain and suffering of people, especially children, that they feel are unjust and that a benevolent God could never allow.  The problem with that is that for His creation to truly be capable of free will, the chaos that follows must be allowed.  IF we are eternal creatures, the suffering is brief and the lessons, forever.  I went through my own personal hell as a kid/teen.  It made me a caring man.

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1 minute ago, and then said:

I agree completely.  Religion has done more to separate people from each other than most things.  It CAN motivate the worst atrocities of all but that isn't the Creator's fault (IMO). I think the people who can't get to the place of trusting or believing in God are mostly influenced by their perceptions of the seeming randomness and futility of life here.  Inexplicable pain and suffering of people, especially children, that they feel are unjust and that a benevolent God could never allow.  The problem with that is that for His creation to truly be capable of free will, the chaos that follows must be allowed.  IF we are eternal creatures, the suffering is brief and the lessons, forever.  I went through my own personal hell as a kid/teen.  It made me a caring man.

It could also be they're turned way off by a lot of the stuff they find in religious texts that are just human ideas. 

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Posted (edited)

If you think in terms of the spiritual and eternal, it would make sense that the physical and material wouldn't really be very important.

Edited by ChaosRose
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Posted (edited)

10 minutes ago, and then said:

I agree completely.(1)Religion has done more to separate people from each other than most things.  It CAN motivate the worst atrocities of all but that isn't the Creator's fault (IMO). (2)I think the people who can't get to the place of trusting or believing in God are mostly influenced by their perceptions of the seeming randomness and futility of life here.  Inexplicable pain and suffering of people, especially children, that they feel are unjust and that a benevolent God could never allow.  The problem with that is that for His creation to truly be capable of free will, the chaos that follows must be allowed.  IF we are eternal creatures, the suffering is brief and the lessons, forever.  (3)I went through my own personal hell as a kid/teen.  It made me a caring man.

1)I agree. Religion has divided and destroyed a lot. Even now extreme beliefs create pain and suffering all over the world. It's a terrible thing and it's also what motivates many of us to stay away from it.

2)Well. I found no personal subjective evidence for any type of God having any influence within my life. I figure that my brain just isn't wired to believe like a lot of people are. Maybe it's a pro or a con of evolution. Life is a random chaotic and in many regards futile.

3)This does happen to a lot of people, just as the same events can make them cruel and heartless. So it's a hit or miss thing.

Edited by XenoFish
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Didn't take much to flip that sucker off topic.  

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