Russia probes kick into high gear

[ExpandMyMind]

Has anyone ever considered that Trump may have been under surveillance by the authorities for quite some time before he was elected? We know he was being investigated and he obviously had someone tell him that he was being monitored. Remember his claims about the Obama wire-tap? We also know that US intelligence warned the Israelis that he was compromised - before he gave extremely highly classified material about Israel to the Russians, and probably the Iranians and Hezbollah as a result - why would they have done so, if they didn't know something substantial?

It's entirely possible that intelligence services already have evidence of crimes being committed - possibly not legally admissible - and that is the main reasons for the investigations. Even Ryan and McConnell think he's in Putin's pocket.

Of course, this is just an unsubstantiated theory, but elements of it do seem to make sense.

[ian hacktorp]

26 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

It's entirely possible that intelligence services already have evidence of crimes being committed - possibly not legally admissible - and that is the main reasons for the investigations.

It's also entirely possible...even likely...that whatever 'evidence' the FBI thinks they have was also obtained illegally.  If it turns out their surveillance of Trump was green-lighted by a FISA warrant which was justified by the now-known-to-be-fraudulent Steele Dossier, there are a whole lotta FBI/CIA people and Clinton/DNC folks and Obama administration (DOJ) lackeys who are going to be looking at serious charges and many years in prison.

This, in fact, looks to be how the whole thing is shaping up.

[ExpandMyMind]

22 minutes ago, hacktorp said:

 If it turns out their surveillance of Trump was green-lighted by a FISA warrant which was justified by the now-known-to-be-fraudulent Steele Dossier,

The bold is not known to be true and the the Dossier would be the sort of evidence that could justify further investigation and warrants, if any of its claims had been independently verified. It was intelligence gathered by a reputable British ex-intelligence officer. I don't think the dossier itself has ever been considered or could ever be considered as evidence, though.

The Obama administration, DNC and Clinton? They have no oversight over FBI investigations and have no legal authority to order the surveillance of US citizens, as far as I'm aware. And Clinton was a private citizen, why was she even mentioned? That's just wild conspiracy theory stuff.

I was thinking more along the lines of the NSA picking up something through one of their dodgy programs and passing the intelligence on to others (or maybe through CIA operations following Russians or something). This was what I was referring to when I suggested 'possibly not legal'. These seem far more likely than other alternatives, especially the silly deep state conspiracy theories.

Edited December 11, 2017 by ExpandMyMind

[ian hacktorp]

29 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

It was intelligence gathered by a reputable British ex-intelligence officer.

I give you credit for hanging in there, but the Steele Dossier has been debunked for some time and new information hasn't helped as the trail of payments for it apparently implicates many of those I mentioned above, including Peter Strzok.  Worse still is the growing belief that this clearly phony document was used to gain a surveillance warrant against a political rival.  Heavy stuff, in other words.  Obstruction of Justice charges may well be the least of their worries.

And I know you hope we all forget about Hillary, but if any of the folks I mentioned above find themselves in deep legal jeopardy, as I suspect they will, it will be THEY who remember Hillary's name and her prominent role in all this.

Folks with names like Comey, Podesta, Yates, Lynch, Mueller(!), Holder, WJClinton, Brennan, Clapper...

Edited December 11, 2017 by hacktorp

[ExpandMyMind]

1 minute ago, hacktorp said:

I give you credit for hanging in there, but the Steele Dossier has been debunked for some time and new information hasn't helped as the trail of payments for it apparently implicates many of those I mentioned above.  Worse still is the growing belief that that phony document was used to gain a surveillance warrant against a political rival.  Heavy stuff, in other words.  Obstruction of Justice charges may well be the least of their worries.

You can't say that with any authority, since you're not the one investigating its contents.

Also, it was never meant to be considered as evidence. It is and always has been a base to investigate claims made within it to try to find out if it is verifiable and then find evidence of a crime. That's where the evidence, if there is any, will come from.

3 minutes ago, hacktorp said:

And I know you hope we all forget about Hillary

Why don't you just impeach her already and get it over with? Seriously, the GOP controls congress, just get it over with. It'd pass no problem.

How could anyone possibly forget about her, when her name is invoked any time Trump defenders need a dose of whattaboutism to try to change the subject.

I don't give a crap about Hillary. I think her and her husband destroyed left-wing politics in the US, not to mention the black community - and economy too thanks to the destruction of the Glass Steagall Act.

 

[ian hacktorp]

22 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Why don't you just impeach her already and get it over with?

The more I think about this, the more I like it.  Lord knows it would be bigger than the Superbowl for the mass media.

But I don't know if the MSM would turn on their 'girl' like that...  Nah, of course they would!

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, Tiggs said:

Not everyone shares that worldview, apparently.

That "worldview" got beaten out of a lot of us over the last 8 years.  It had a lot to do with the IRS being weaponized, American citizens, even congress critters, being illegally surveilled and the apparatus of the CIA and FBI being used for political purposes against the opposition party.  Nothing but innuendo will attend Mueller's final report - whenever he deigns to share it.  The Trump haters will call for his Impeachment, his supporters will deny there's any THERE, there and the media/progressive syndicate will continue banging the drum.  The problem with the drum-banging is that people are tuning it out more every day.  

[ExpandMyMind]

2 minutes ago, hacktorp said:

The more I think about this, the more I like it.  Lord knows it would be bigger than the Superbowl for the mass media.

But I don't know if the MSM would turn on their 'girl' like that...  Nah, of course they would!

The same "her" MSN that barely even reported policy in the run up to the election, instead opting to fill the airwaves with the email scandal or Trump?

Your story doesn't really check out when you consider that their unbiased reporting (by that I mean not ignoring the story as Fox does when it's inconvenient) was a significant part of the reason she lost the election. If what you claim were true, it would barely have been reported.

This can also be applied to Comey's actions right before the election, to tear apart accusations of his bias. 

[bee]

3 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

before he gave extremely highly classified material about Israel to the Russians,

come on now - don't get carried away with this - I think you are referring to the time that Trump shared some information
about Israeli based intelligence that laptops were planning to be used in Islamic terror attacks -  would you have preferred 
that a plane full of Russian civilians were blown up ? 

you are (deliberately?) perpetuating the myth that Trump committed some great  illegal act of betrayal -

but this is what's happening all the time now - perception management, muddying the waters and negative spin -
 

[bee]

3 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Has anyone ever considered that Trump may have been under surveillance by the authorities for quite some time before he was elected? We know he was being investigated and he obviously had someone tell him that he was being monitored. Remember his claims about the Obama wire-tap? We also know that US intelligence warned the Israelis that he was compromised - before he gave extremely highly classified material about Israel to the Russians, and probably the Iranians and Hezbollah as a result - why would they have done so, if they didn't know something substantial?

It's entirely possible that intelligence services already have evidence of crimes being committed - possibly not legally admissible - and that is the main reasons for the investigations. Even Ryan and McConnell think he's in Putin's pocket.

Of course, this is just an unsubstantiated theory, but elements of it do seem to make sense.

 

re bolded --- err yes probably for a couple of decades or at least since the time he showed an interest in running for president -

that's probably where the leaked *ussy edited clip from 10 years ago came from - a leak from a recorded private conversation -

they must have been sitting on that one for many years - and really if that's the worst they could come up with we can conclude
that they have nothing on the POTUS of any significance - nothing that gets in the way of him being President - 

hence the attraction to twist everything and drown it in negative spin -- because that's all they have -

 

[bee]

12 hours ago, .ZZ. said:

The moment reality became apparent at Javits.

 

 

something just hit me in the gut when I looked at those  two naive young women - 
and that was ..... that I would rather see a picture of them like this -
than with their brains blown out and splattered against a wall or a leg hanging off - rather see them crying for a political
loss than the death of a family member or even their whole family - 

Clinton let it be known that she would have supported a '''no fly zone''' in Syria when Russia went in to work with
 Assad and the Syrian army to oust the Al Qaeda affiliated groups and Islamic State who were running amok and
taking over the country - 

 It's anyone's guess what that could have lead to -  but it could have lead to serious and escalating military conflict 
with Russia - it's like that's what Clinton and her Globalist backers wanted - to destabilize Russia  and bring
about Regime change there - and at the same time to remove the Assad Regime and give the green light to a Sunni (Saudi)
lead Islamic State - ?

those two young women look so innocent and gullible - and have no idea what their support of Hillary Clinton might
have lead to -- 

sorry bit of topic - just felt the need to say that 

 

Edited December 11, 2017 by bee

[bee]

7 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Personally, I think people are being conditioned for the firing of Mueller by Trump. 

 

I don't think Trump will fire Mueller - he's too sussed to do that and knows what it would lead to --

ie. never ending accusations of getting rid of him because he was uncovering the mythical ''''collusion'''

in this thread earlier it's been said (Merc if I remember right)  that Mueller could WANT to be fired
and is pushing for it in a way -- so he can get out of leading a failed 'mission' and hurt Trump at the same time -

I speculated that Mueller might use Health Issues to step down and save face -- but Anchor Steam thought
that Mueller is enjoying his '''work''' and will keep at the lucrative job for years if he can --

 

[Space Commander Travis]

"Russians are the source of all your problems, and the benevolent Democratic party will protect you from them. Don’t like the president? Blame Russia. Worried about healthcare in America? Russia. Don’t like an opposing viewpoint? It’s Russian propaganda. Worried about the DNC weighing the scales for Hillary and openly declaring that it has no obligation to provide real party primaries? Hey, look! Look over there! It’s Russia!" 

https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/us-anti-russia-sentiment-is-built-on-racism-xenophobia-homophobia-and-demagoguery-b1ebef57ddb6

This sums up the stupidity of the whole waste-of-time non-scandal nicely.

[Space Commander Travis]

I suppose the two, I think it is, people who are so doggedly sticking to the whole idiotic conspiracy storyline are aware that they are quite simply cheering on hatred and xenophobia at the potential risk to world peace? But hey, anything's worth it to get rid of the Monster isn't it.  

Edited December 11, 2017 by Manfred von Dreidecker

[Why not]

8 hours ago, RAyMO said:

But this is exactly why we are having these debates - either to stop the investigation - in case there is evidence to be uncovered; or to create grounds for deniability based on the bias of the investigators.

Its like pointing out the referee is a city supporter before a local derby. Get your excuse for defeat in early.

Your referee analogy would be great if the referee was not cheering on one team over the other.

Come on man, has the Trump Derangement syndrome blinded you that badly? Or is it that you just don't care as long as they just "get Trump"?

[Space Commander Travis]

19 minutes ago, bee said:

speculated that Mueller might use Health Issues to step down and save face -- but Anchor Steam thought
that Mueller is enjoying his '''work''' and will keep at the lucrative job for years if he can --

Oh yes, now had anyone, even those who were au fait with the American political industry, heard of him before he became the relentless crusader for Justice and Truth and Stuff? Now he's got (or he deludes himself into thinking) that he was the fate of Presidents in his hand! he could bring down entire Governments! And no doubt gets paid very generously for it.  Of course he loves it.

[bee]

1 hour ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

"Russians are the source of all your problems, and the benevolent Democratic party will protect you from them. Don’t like the president? Blame Russia. Worried about healthcare in America? Russia. Don’t like an opposing viewpoint? It’s Russian propaganda. Worried about the DNC weighing the scales for Hillary and openly declaring that it has no obligation to provide real party primaries? Hey, look! Look over there! It’s Russia!" 

https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/us-anti-russia-sentiment-is-built-on-racism-xenophobia-homophobia-and-demagoguery-b1ebef57ddb6

This sums up the stupidity of the whole waste-of-time non-scandal nicely.

this extract illustrates how insane and dangerous the whole thing has become -- the bit about Russians being '''genetically driven''' etc

Quote

James Clapper, former head of the “17 intelligence agencies” purported to have confirmed Russia’s attempt to interfere in the US election (a thoroughly debunked lie, by the way) has gone on record since his resignation making downright Klansman-like assertions about Russians being “genetically driven” toward nefarious behavior and subversion. This is not merely xenophobia; a position on a group’s genetic disposition toward subversion is not in any way different than saying that Jews are “genetically driven” to cheat or that black people are “genetically driven” to steal. This is outright racism, and it is coming from one of the primary intelligence architects behind the current Russiagate hysteria.

 

Edited December 11, 2017 by bee

[Space Commander Travis]

I know,any rational person would conclude that he was utterly mad. 

[Farmer77]

 

5 hours ago, and then said:

It had a lot to do with the IRS being weaponized

Yeah not so much. 

IRS unfairly targeted liberal groups, too, Treasury Department watchdog finds

Quote

A federal watchdog has identified as many as 146 cases in which the Internal Revenue Service may have targeted liberal-leaning groups for extra scrutiny based on their names or political leanings, a finding that could undermine claims that conservatives were unfairly targeted under President Barack Obama.

 

 

[Farmer77]

4 hours ago, bee said:

come on now - don't get carried away with this - I think you are referring to the time that Trump shared some information
about Israeli based intelligence that laptops were planning to be used in Islamic terror attacks -  would you have preferred 
that a plane full of Russian civilians were blown up ? 

you are (deliberately?) perpetuating the myth that Trump committed some great  illegal act of betrayal -

but this is what's happening all the time now - perception management, muddying the waters and negative spin -
 

Trump gave information which A. he had no right to give. B. very possibly burned an Israeli asset risking lives and C. caused our allies to question whether it was safe to share intelligence with us. 

There is no need to muddy the waters, Trump himself crapped in them. 

[Farmer77]

2 hours ago, Why not said:

Your referee analogy would be great if the referee was not cheering on one team over the other.

Come on man, has the Trump Derangement syndrome blinded you that badly? Or is it that you just don't care as long as they just "get Trump"?

Prove that the "referee" is cheering on one side. Actually more to the point I would request that you ask the same of the media which has you so convinced of this. Prove it. 

If you are willing to ignore and disparage one of the branches of government over political ideology you should at least be able to prove your accusation. 

I don't mean innuendo , I don't mean guilt by association , I mean actual proof of a bias which functionally impacts the investigation. 

If you cant then you're truly willing to sacrifice nation for party. 

[Farmer77]

This is an interesting piece I don't think ive seen discussed here :

 

DOJ: Releasing James Comey memos would 'impair' Russia probe

 

Quote

WASHINGTON – There may be more the public doesn't know about former FBI Director James Comey's private conversations with President Trump. 

That's the strong suggestion from the Justice Department, as it argues against releasing the memos Comey wrote about his conversations with Trump to media organizations. In court filings on Wednesday, the department hinted that the documents include information that was not part of the ex-FBI chief's public testimony before a Senate panel earlier this year. 

Several media organizations, including USA TODAY's parent company Gannett, are suing the government for release of the documents, including Trump's alleged requests for Comey's personal "loyalty" and to drop his investigation into former national security adviser Michael Flynn.

Yet Justice is arguing that disclosure of the communications "might prematurely reveal... the nature, scope, direction and focus of its investigations" involving Russia's interference in the 2016 election. 

 

[+joc]

3 hours ago, bee said:

 

I don't think Trump will fire Mueller - he's too sussed to do that and knows what it would lead to --

ie. never ending accusations of getting rid of him because he was uncovering the mythical ''''collusion'''

in this thread earlier it's been said (Merc if I remember right)  that Mueller could WANT to be fired
and is pushing for it in a way -- so he can get out of leading a failed 'mission' and hurt Trump at the same time -

I speculated that Mueller might use Health Issues to step down and save face -- but Anchor Steam thought
that Mueller is enjoying his '''work''' and will keep at the lucrative job for years if he can --

 

It just occurred to me...this whole Thing....could this be a Good Cop/Bad Cop play production between Mueller and Trump?

Nah....

Trump is playing the Media like a violin...and Mueller...digging, digging, digging...knowing the whole time, there is nothing at the end of the dig.  So what is he digging for?   And why is Sessions not even involved...oh, because he recused himself...right, as a result of questioning by none other than the defamed SNL star?  None of it really makes any sense.  

I

[Farmer77]

7 minutes ago, joc said:

It just occurred to me...this whole Thing....could this be a Good Cop/Bad Cop play production between Mueller and Trump?

Nah....

Trump is playing the Media like a violin...and Mueller...digging, digging, digging...knowing the whole time, there is nothing at the end of the dig.  So what is he digging for?   And why is Sessions not even involved...oh, because he recused himself...right, as a result of questioning by none other than the defamed SNL star?  None of it really makes any sense.  

I

While the investigation as is makes perfect sense to me, the conspiracy theory you floated about good cop/bad cop has been put forward before. I think it was Rush Limbaugh who I read saying it but I'm not 100% sure. Anyways his theory was that Trump interviewing Mueller for the FBI directorship was a cover for them planning this investigation as a trap for Hillary. 

 

[Lilly]

The Comey 'memos' make me want to laugh. So, Comey talks with then meets with Trump then writes some little 'memos' to himself. These little 'memos' just *happen* to support his rendition of what was said. Wow, now there's some rock solid proof for ya (<extreme sarcasm). Does anyone even remotely think Comey would write himself anything that would incriminate himself...or even make himself look bad?

If this is the type of evidence the Mueller investigation is digging up...as my kids would say, "totally lame".