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Catalonia independence bid


The Caspian Hare

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The cabinet that makes up the executive branch of Catalonia's government has unanimously endorsed a decree calling for an Oct. 1 "binding self-determination referendum" on the region's independence from Spain.

Catalan regional President Carles Puigdemont was the last official to sign the document late Wednesday. The decree authorizes the formation of an electoral board to make preparations for the vote.

The referendum clashes with the Spanish Constitution, which only gives national authorities the right to call such vote. But Catalonia's pro-independence lawmakers approved a bill earlier Wednesday that is meant to provide a legal justification for the independence vote.

A central government official told The Associated Press that Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy has urged the country's State Council to review the bill.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/latest-catalan-lawmakers-debate-independence-vote-49646927

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i can't see how independence movements such as Catalonia's can be indefinitely contained. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

crikey, it sounds like a new Spanish Civil War .. 

 

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 Spanish police storm Catalan government buildings to stop independence referendum.

As MishTalk's Mike Shedlock details, the Catalan president described the raids as a “co-ordinated police assault” and a “de facto state of emergency”.

 
 

Spanish national police have stormed ministries and buildings belonging to Catalonia’s regional government to put a stop to the region’s independence referendum.

 

In the early hours of the morning armed officers arrived at various Catalan ministries, including the economy department, foreign affairs department, and social affairs department, Spanish media reports.

 

At least twelve Catalan officials are said to have been arrested, including the chief aide to Catalonia’s deputy prime minister, Josep Maria Jové. The arrests come as the mayors of Catalan towns who back the referendum were yesterday questioned by state prosecutors.

 

Pro-independence crowds have formed outside the regional ministries in support of the provincial government and in protest against the raids and searches.

 

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-20/let-catalonia-decide

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Perhaps Ms. May ought to be grateful the EU seems thoroughly liberal compared with the Spanish govt. Although she may be making notes for next time the Scots get restless ... 

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On ‎08‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 0:32 PM, Captain Risky said:

i can't see how independence movements such as Catalonia's can be indefinitely contained. 

Freedom is a bad thing when those advocating more of it dont contemplate human nature including peoples desire for power. What happens is those who want power but dont have it push for more and more decentralisation to get it. And then grab it by creating a break away state when the opportunity arises.

It broke the US off Britain, India, African colonies, then finally Australia and New Zealand. Now Scottish politicians are at it too. And across Europe with the Basques, Catalonians, Alsace-Lorraine, Bavaria, Flanders, and many more. Of course the people are seduced by those who want to fragment their countries for their own personal power with fake promises of better representation. And they frequently fall for the Machiavellian ploy which never gets them what they want.

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This is quite extraordinary! And it says something about the blinkeredness of Britain and America that no one seems to be taking any notice of it, considering that this would seem to be very relevant for the question of countries wishing to break away from heavy-handed authoritarian regimes.

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The Civil Guard also staged raids on key administrative buildings in Barcelona. The sight of balaclava-clad officers of the Civil Guard, one of the most potent symbols of the not-yet-forgotten Franco dictatorship, crossing the threshold of the seats of Catalonia’s (very limited) power and arresting local officials, was too much for the local population to bear.

Within minutes almost all of the buildings were surrounded by crowds of flag-draped pro-independence protesters. The focal point of the day’s demonstrations was the Economic Council of Catalonia, whose second-in-command and technical coordinator of the referendum, Josep Maria Jové, was among those detained. He has now been charged with sedition and could face between 10-15 years in prison. Before that, he faces fines of €12,000 a day.

The confiscation of ballots and other vital voting paraphernalia and the detention of key members of the referendum’s organizing committee, together with today’s decision by the Spanish Finance Ministry to completely block the regional government’s accounts

 

Unintended Consequences & Ugly Repercussions: It's Getting Worse In Catalonia

Edited by Manfred von Dreidecker
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On 2017-9-22 at 3:06 PM, RabidMongoose said:

Freedom is a bad thing when those advocating more of it dont contemplate human nature including peoples desire for power. What happens is those who want power but dont have it push for more and more decentralisation to get it. And then grab it by creating a break away state when the opportunity arises.

It broke the US off Britain, India, African colonies, then finally Australia and New Zealand. Now Scottish politicians are at it too. And across Europe with the Basques, Catalonians, Alsace-Lorraine, Bavaria, Flanders, and many more. Of course the people are seduced by those who want to fragment their countries for their own personal power with fake promises of better representation. And they frequently fall for the Machiavellian ploy which never gets them what they want.

There are no Scottish politicians that I can think of who want Scotland to be a sovereign, independent, self-governing state.

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1 hour ago, Black Monk said:

There are no Scottish politicians that I can think of who want Scotland to be a sovereign, independent, self-governing state.

Denial, I like it lol

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Is it just me, or is the entire geopolitical map of the world on the verge of breaking apart?

Nobody seems happy with anything these days...

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1 hour ago, LV-426 said:

Is it just me, or is the entire geopolitical map of the world on the verge of breaking apart?

Nobody seems happy with anything these days...

It could happen too for the USA and Canada. Imagine 12 new North American nation sometime in the 21st century: 1. The Republics of Texas, 2. Alaska, 3. Hawaii, 4. Cascadia (the Pacific Northwest+British Columbia), 5. Central Canada, 6. New Confederacy of the South, 7. California, 8. Florida, 9. Newfoundland, 10. Atlantic Canada, and the most famous separatist movements: 11. Vermont and 12. Quebec. Nation-states form by similar neighbors, but the neighbors can be different and sometimes want to break away. It's like the Netherlands and Belgium (northern half): both Dutch, but different regionalism (The Flemish people), churches (Protestant Netherlands, Catholic Belgium) and kingdoms, plus there's the related Frisians.  

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5 hours ago, LV-426 said:

Is it just me, or is the entire geopolitical map of the world on the verge of breaking apart?

Nobody seems happy with anything these days...

8Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, as well as famines. These are the beginning of birth pains

The Greek for nation was "ethnos".  I think the divisiveness we are seeing is just another aspect of prophetic fulfillment.  We seem to be on our way into a breakdown of common sense, order and clear thinking.  With the weapons we have at hand today, this is a VERY troubling trend.

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5 hours ago, LV-426 said:

Is it just me, or is the entire geopolitical map of the world on the verge of breaking apart?

Nobody seems happy with anything these days...

It might have the potential to be a very good thing, since the majority of nation states in Europe and the New World are unnatural and purely artificial constructions designed to consolidate power in the ruling elite, and are much more likely to be able to exert their power through consolidation of military power. Germany was never a threat to anywhere else (Prussia fought purely defensive wars against Napoleon) before Otto Von brought all the states together into one super-state. If say, the U.S. was to split up as speculated, would there still be one ruling party with the ambition to exert its influence everywhere in the world? the ruling clique that remained in the D.C. - New York East Coast axis might well do, but the military power - the air bases, production facilities, the missile bases and nuclear production facilities - would be scattered across several now independent states. And I doubt that the Republic of Texas would want to cooperate with the power-crazed ambitions of the Washington ruling elite if there was nothing in it for them. Although the Free and Socialist Republic of California would be only too happy to help the Democratic elite, of course. 

 

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On 2017-9-22 at 3:06 PM, RabidMongoose said:

Freedom is a bad thing when those advocating more of it dont contemplate human nature including peoples desire for power. What happens is those who want power but dont have it push for more and more decentralisation to get it. And then grab it by creating a break away state when the opportunity arises.

It broke the US off Britain, India, African colonies, then finally Australia and New Zealand. Now Scottish politicians are at it too. And across Europe with the Basques, Catalonians, Alsace-Lorraine, Bavaria, Flanders, and many more. Of course the people are seduced by those who want to fragment their countries for their own personal power with fake promises of better representation. And they frequently fall for the Machiavellian ploy which never gets them what they want.

Brexit anyone?

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borders are not static - never have been. Many today are the result of action and reactions within the last 150 years are so, Many are 'artifically' created by some 'interested power' without due consdieration of the people. Borders will continually change - it is just the way of things.

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3 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

borders are not static - never have been. Many today are the result of action and reactions within the last 150 years are so, Many are 'artifically' created by some 'interested power' without due consdieration of the people. Borders will continually change - it is just the way of things.

look at Iraq and Syria; both created as recently as the aftermath of WWI in their current form, largely devised by Britain and France. 

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In one sense it is quite sad that Cataluña feels  to the need to break away (yet it is disputable whether it is a majority of voters) but, as a province that suffered terrible humiliations and privations under Franco then I fully understand where this desire to hold a referendum comes from. This will be the first time that the electorate will be asked whether to remain a province within Greater Spain, or to carve out a place in the world freed from the seemingly ensless interference from Madrid.

Having spent more than a decade living both in Madrid and Alicante my experience is that Cataluña is largely treated as a cash-cow to support profligate spending by La Moncloa on grandiose vanity projects that have done nothing to promote employment. Barcelona has used what financial powers it has to create a strong vibrant industrial base as is now overtaking Madrid as the IT and Aerospace hub of Southern Europe. Add to that the fact that there are many, many Madrileños that supported Franco's crackdown on Cataluña and the present government is well littered with Franco era supporters, who refuse to allow the search for mass graves from that era to be properly funded and exposed. Add to that Franco's body still remains in a State of Grace within the Basilica  at the Valle de los Caídos (Valley of the Fallen) that was meant to commemorate those who died during the Civil War. Franco is the ONLY person buried inside the Basilica, and he never died during the Civil War. Hundreds of thousands of Francoists attend a special ceremony held every year at the Basilica for Franco. This remains a continuing "slap in the face" for those regions who suffered during and after the Civil War.

Should there be an independence referendum? Absolutely I would argue, because even if it falls then at least La Moncloa who realise that it needs to reconcile itself with the demands of the Regional Autonomous Regions 

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17 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

Denial, I like it lol

It's actually true.

Name me a Scottish politician or party that wants an independent, sovereign, self-governing Scotland.

Edited by Black Monk
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57 minutes ago, Black Monk said:

It's actually true.

Name me a Scottish politician or party that wants an independent, sovereign, self-governing Scotland.

Are you for real? Have you been living in a cave for the last five years? Why do you think we had a referendum on Scottish Independence? Have you really never heard of the SNP?

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1 hour ago, Black Monk said:

It's actually true.

Name me a Scottish politician or party that wants an independent, sovereign, self-governing Scotland.

Umm... Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish National Party ? (the one currently in power in the devolved parliament).

 

As for Catelonia; according to an article on Radio 4, only about 50% of Catelonians want independence. However, even people opposed to independence are planning on voting "pro" in the upcoming referendum (if the Federal government permits it to go ahead), purely to protest the action of the Federal Government in arresting their political representatives.

Edited by RoofGardener
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17 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Are you for real? Have you been living in a cave for the last five years? Why do you think we had a referendum on Scottish Independence? Have you really never heard of the SNP?

And you think the SNP want an independent, sovereign, self-governing Scotland, do you?

I think you're the one who's been living in a cave.

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8 minutes ago, Black Monk said:

And you think the SNP want an independent, sovereign, self-governing Scotland, do you?

I think you're the one who's been living in a cave.

Hmm.... here is the headline from the SNP website, under its "Our Vision" page. 

Quote

Our Vision

The SNP is committed to making Scotland the nation we know it can be. Our vision is of a prosperous country where everyone gets the chance to fulfil their potential. We want a fair society where no-one is left behind. And our vision is of Scotland as an independent country - equal to the very best.

https://www.snp.org/our_vision

That seems fairly clear ? 

 

Edited by RoofGardener
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3 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmm.... here is the headline from the SNP website, under its "Our Vision" page. 

 

 

Their vision of Scotland ISN'T one of an independent Scotland. Far from it. They do NOT want a sovereign, independent, Scotland. They are talking guff, as usual. It's no wonder they lost lots of seats in the General Election. The Scottish "Nationalist" Party are not Scottish nationalists.

Edited by Black Monk
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2 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Truly ? On what do you base that premis, Black Monk ? 

 

Well, the Scottish "National" Party want Scotland to leave the UK but stay in the EU. Therefore, they want just want merely to swap rule from London for rule from Brussels and Strasbourg. Therefore, they do not want an independent, sovereign, self-governing Scotland and are not true Scottish nationalists. True Scottish nationalists are those who want Scotland out of both the United Kingdom AND the European Union.

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