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rodentraiser

Why is it spirituality vs skepticism?

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On 22/09/2017 at 11:39 AM, jmccr8 said:

It is closer to 500,000 yrs and several hominid lines that have had the ability to speak I will look for links when I get on my computer as I am using my phone now and can't access the from here.

If you  read  my post carefully you would see that i explained that about 70000 years ago humans experienced a genetic evolution which allowed them to speak and think with far greater complexity than other primates and their own ancestors  

Again this is the difference between human language and animal communication.

 In other words humans only developed human type language skills and associated sophistication of mental language  approx 70000 years ago. This is an average.  Some evidences suggest 100000 and some as recent as 50000 .

Many linguists argue that human language only evolved as late as 10000 years ago 

A recent study conducted by Quentin D. Atkinson, a biologist at the University of Auckland in New Zealand, suggests two very important findings: language originated only once, and the specific place of origin may be southwestern Africa.

Atkinson’s findings challenge a long-held belief by linguistics that the origin of spoken language only dates back some 10,000 years. Atkinson hints that if African populations began their dispersal from Africa to Asia and Europe 60,000 years ago, perhaps the spoken language had to exist around that time and, as Atkinson hints at, may have been the catalyst for their dispersion and subsequent migration.

http://www.dictionary.com/e/origin/

Modern language was only made possible when the human larynx descended into its present positiona bout 10000 years ago 

The third important adaptation was the descent of the larynx, 100,000 years ago, which greatly increased the phonological range of vocalisations that could be made. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14662184

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8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

If you  read  my post carefully you would see that i explained that about 70000 years ago humans experienced a genetic evolution which allowed them to speak and think with far greater complexity than other primates and their own ancestors  

Again this is the difference between human language and animal communication.

 In other words humans only developed human type language skills and associated sophistication of mental language  approx 70000 years ago. This is an average.  Some evidences suggest 100000 and some as recent as 50000 .

Many linguists argue that human language only evolved as late as 10000 years ago 

A recent study conducted by Quentin D. Atkinson, a biologist at the University of Auckland in New Zealand, suggests two very important findings: language originated only once, and the specific place of origin may be southwestern Africa.

Atkinson’s findings challenge a long-held belief by linguistics that the origin of spoken language only dates back some 10,000 years. Atkinson hints that if African populations began their dispersal from Africa to Asia and Europe 60,000 years ago, perhaps the spoken language had to exist around that time and, as Atkinson hints at, may have been the catalyst for their dispersion and subsequent migration.

http://www.dictionary.com/e/origin/

Modern language was only made possible when the human larynx descended into its present positiona bout 10000 years ago 

The third important adaptation was the descent of the larynx, 100,000 years ago, which greatly increased the phonological range of vocalisations that could be made. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14662184

Seems a little contradictory no?

 

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9 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

If you  read  my post carefully you would see that i explained that about 70000 years ago humans experienced a genetic evolution which allowed them to speak and think with far greater complexity than other primates and their own ancestors  

Again this is the difference between human language and animal communication.

 In other words humans only developed human type language skills and associated sophistication of mental language  approx 70000 years ago. This is an average.  Some evidences suggest 100000 and some as recent as 50000 .

Many linguists argue that human language only evolved as late as 10000 years ago 

A recent study conducted by Quentin D. Atkinson, a biologist at the University of Auckland in New Zealand, suggests two very important findings: language originated only once, and the specific place of origin may be southwestern Africa.

Atkinson’s findings challenge a long-held belief by linguistics that the origin of spoken language only dates back some 10,000 years. Atkinson hints that if African populations began their dispersal from Africa to Asia and Europe 60,000 years ago, perhaps the spoken language had to exist around that time and, as Atkinson hints at, may have been the catalyst for their dispersion and subsequent migration.

http://www.dictionary.com/e/origin/

Modern language was only made possible when the human larynx descended into its present positiona bout 10000 years ago 

The third important adaptation was the descent of the larynx, 100,000 years ago, which greatly increased the phonological range of vocalisations that could be made. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14662184

I will make further comment later when I can actually get to sit down at my computer. Unfortunately at present am using my phones when here and cannot respond as I would prefer to.

jmccr8

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Posted (edited)

The only genetic evolution humans made towards speaking is that their larnyx moved so they could make sounds beyond what sounds an animal makes. That doesn't in any sense mean that just because they can talk more that they are unique.

I was trying to find the recent article on what researcher discovered about whales. They found out that whales actually have sounds for certain words. In other words, they're using certain sounds to mean certain things in one word sentences and they can do more:

THEIR SONGS ARE INCREDIBLY COMPLEX …

Humpback songs aren’t just showy. They have their own grammar, and their songs are hierarchical, like sentences. In human language, this means that the meaning of sentences depends on the clauses within them and the words within them. In 2006, mathematical analysis found that humpbacks use phrases, too. And they remix their tunes, too, tweaking them and changing them over time, often combining new and old melodies. Humpback songs have even been visualized as sheet music.

 

You simply can't say people are the only living things on earth with a higher consciousness because they have an oral language. The only difference between a whale's language and English is you can't understand it but if you use that excuse, now you're saying that any human on earth who speaks a language you don't understand doesn't have a higher consciousness. And we know that's not correct.

My question to you, Mr. Walker, is why do you think the only forms of language have to be oral?

 

Edited by rodentraiser
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On 9/22/2017 at 10:21 PM, Mr Walker said:

If you  read  my post carefully you would see that i explained that about 70000 years ago humans experienced a genetic evolution which allowed them to speak and think with far greater complexity than other primates and their own ancestors  

Again this is the difference between human language and animal communication.

 In other words humans only developed human type language skills and associated sophistication of mental language  approx 70000 years ago. This is an average.  Some evidences suggest 100000 and some as recent as 50000 .

Many linguists argue that human language only evolved as late as 10000 years ago 

A recent study conducted by Quentin D. Atkinson, a biologist at the University of Auckland in New Zealand, suggests two very important findings: language originated only once, and the specific place of origin may be southwestern Africa.

Atkinson’s findings challenge a long-held belief by linguistics that the origin of spoken language only dates back some 10,000 years. Atkinson hints that if African populations began their dispersal from Africa to Asia and Europe 60,000 years ago, perhaps the spoken language had to exist around that time and, as Atkinson hints at, may have been the catalyst for their dispersion and subsequent migration.

http://www.dictionary.com/e/origin/

Modern language was only made possible when the human larynx descended into its present positiona bout 10000 years ago 

The third important adaptation was the descent of the larynx, 100,000 years ago, which greatly increased the phonological range of vocalisations that could be made. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14662184

Okay I have had some time to look for links in my files that relate to speech and archaic hominids.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/neanderthal-language-speech-modern-humans_n_3574556

https://phys.org/news/2013-07-neanderthals-speech-language-modern-humans.html#inlRlv

https://phys.org/news/2013-12-hyoid-bone-analysis-hypothesis-complex.html#nRlv

This last link discusses the manufacture of a heat treated compound used to affix spearheads and one can read the transcripts in the link provided if you chose not to watch the video.In order to carry the procedure of manufacture the ability to speak would be necessary to communicate to others the process.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/decoding-neanderthals.html

 the time period that you have given falls short of what is known and accepted in the scientific community.

jmccr8

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Okay I have had some time to look for links in my files that relate to speech and archaic hominids.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/neanderthal-language-speech-modern-humans_n_3574556

https://phys.org/news/2013-07-neanderthals-speech-language-modern-humans.html#inlRlv

https://phys.org/news/2013-12-hyoid-bone-analysis-hypothesis-complex.html#nRlv

This last link discusses the manufacture of a heat treated compound used to affix spearheads and one can read the transcripts in the link provided if you chose not to watch the video.In order to carry the procedure of manufacture the ability to speak would be necessary to communicate to others the process.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/decoding-neanderthals.html

 the time period that you have given falls short of what is known and accepted in the scientific community.

jmccr8

Maybe I mislead you.

i consider neandertals To BE humans  Many of us still have neandertal genes  in us  There is a lot of argument abut neadertal speech  based on physiology of their body  and how it impacts on the abilty to make sophisticated sounds.

 Personally i think neandertals did speak and were capable of abstract thought although the evidences are borderline . Some experts argue that they only wore whole animals skins and did not have the abilty to sew or make clothing. others give them more credit.     However this still only dates us back to between 50 and 100 thousand years ago

 Theories about earlier language development are inconclusive, and have little actual evidence for them.   There  are two problems,  both connected to physiology, again,  which suggest that earlier primates, like  modern apes, might have been able to communicate-using signs and simple words, but did not have a language, or the abilty to speak in a linguistic form , and think in abstract and theoretical /conceptual forms.

Only the evolution of evidences like; paintings, fertility figures, burial customs of respect, and ceremonies, indicates a linguistic abilty capable of conceptual and abstract thought.

None of these appear earlier than 100000 years ago, and most much later than that.   

earliest undisputed human burial with spiritual significance -100000 years (and interestingly some of the earliest spiritual burials using grave goods and posturing of the deceased in family groups came from neandertals)

earliest evidences of ceremonial, ritualised and religious behaviours.- 40-50000 years (the earliest recorded burial of a shaman was 30000 years ago)  

earliest cave paintings -40000 years 

earliest fertility figurine and al o the earliest example of figurative art) -35000 years.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Posted (edited)

No you didn't mislead me unless of course you intended to, our previous dicussions in older threads you maintained a very different position. When I have more time I will repost some of our previous discussions in support of the apparent difference that you have just stated here.

You did read the transcript in the last link didn't you. The process involved in that glue making process required some very specific criteria, the type of wood used to attain and maintain the required temperature, the leaves used etc. The process was not simple and required complex thinking to create so that meant an understanding of many factors and elements of nature and materials and would also require a language to teach others the process as it WAS NOT a simple process.

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Maybe I mislead you.

i consider neandertals To BE humans  Many of us still have neandertal genes  in us  There is a lot of argument abut neadertal speech  based on physiology of their body  and how it impacts on the abilty to make sophisticated sounds.

 Personally i think neandertals did speak and were capable of abstract thought although the evidences are borderline . Some experts argue that they only wore whole animals skins and did not have the abilty to sew or make clothing. others give them more credit.     However this still only dates us back to between 50 and 100 thousand years ago

 Theories about earlier language development are inconclusive, and have little actual evidence for them.   There  are two problems,  both connected to physiology, again,  which suggest that earlier primates, like  modern apes, might have been able to communicate-using signs and simple words, but did not have a language, or the abilty to speak in a linguistic form , and think in abstract and theoretical /conceptual forms.

Only the evolution of evidences like; paintings, fertility figures, burial customs of respect, and ceremonies, indicates a linguistic abilty capable of conceptual and abstract thought.

None of these appear earlier than 100000 years ago, and most much later than that.   

earliest undisputed human burial with spiritual significance -100000 years (and interestingly some of the earliest spiritual burials using grave goods and posturing of the deceased in family groups came from neandertals)

earliest evidences of ceremonial, ritualised and religious behaviours.- 40-50000 years (the earliest recorded burial of a shaman was 30000 years ago)  

earliest cave paintings -40000 years 

earliest fertility figurine and al o the earliest example of figurative art) -35000 years.

No one is suggesting that they needrd a language that is as complex as our language today which is far more complex than languages spoken even a 1000 years ago. The one article states that parts of Neandertal language(words) had been carried over into and may still exist in present languages which inndicates a certain amount of inter action. On of my more abstract musings is if some myth/legend and or religious concept wete also adapted/incorperated into ours.

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
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Posted (edited)

21 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

No you didn't mislead me unless of course you intended to, our previous dicussions in older threads you maintained a very different position. When I have more time I will repost some of our previous discussions in support of the apparent difference that you have just stated here.

You did read the transcript in the last link didn't you. The process involved in that glue making process required some very specific criteria, the type of wood used to attain and maintain the required temperature, the leaves used etc. The process was not simple and required complex thinking to create so that meant an understanding of many factors and elements of nature and materials and would also require a language to teach others the process as it WAS NOT a simple process.

No one is suggesting that they needrd a language that is as complex as our language today which is far more complex than languages spoken even a 1000 years ago. The one article states that parts of Neandertal language(words) had been carried over into and may still exist in present languages which inndicates a certain amount of inter action. On of my more abstract musings is if some myth/legend and or religious concept wete also adapted/incorperated into ours.

jmccr8

The last link says "video will not work in your area" However if it talks about the neandertals mentioned in the writing above the video then this is still only 60000 years ago

Ok i read through the transcript and found the bit you are talking about. Interesting, but too many unknowns involved. for it to really indicate language ability.

 IF everything was as suggested, it still would not actually prove language skills, although it would tend to suggest a more  sophisticated thought process than is generally credited to neandertals.

 Many anthropologists do not believe that even modern neandertals (less than 100000 years ) used sophisticated tools such as needles or fishhooks etc  

I am open to read and discover more about this because i have always felt that neandertals have had a bad press compared with cro magnon people The difficulty remains in the physiology of the bone structure which many experts believe would prevent them from speaking  the range of sounds needed for language  On the other hand the y had a hyoid bone which should have made speech possible.  I suspect that as speech spread after about 100000 years ago some neandertals also learned to speak  While it is not impossible for widespread mating to occur without communication (Heck apparently some women reckon this still occurs today ) :) it seems much more likely that   neandertals and cro magnon peoples could actually communicate with each other  quite effectively, to allow mixed families of the two groups 

One thing that concerns me is the suggested age of the resin (250000 years ) This is actually  well before the time of neandertals which is generally accepted to range from 130000 years ago to about 30000 years ago although this is not definitive.

 if you include what are sometimes called proto neandertals, you can push the time frame back far enough however . 

Edited by Mr Walker

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9 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The last link says "video will not work in your area" However if it talks about the neandertals mentioned in the writing above the video then this is still only 60000 years ago

Ok i read through the transcript and found the bit you are talking about. Interesting, but too many unknowns involved. for it to really indicate language ability.

 IF everything was as suggested, it still would not actually prove language skills, although it would tend to suggest a more  sophisticated thought process than is generally credited to neandertals.

 Many anthropologists do not believe that even modern neandertals (less than 100000 years ) used sophisticated tools such as needles or fishhooks etc  

I am open to read and discover more about this because i have always felt that neandertals have had a bad press compared with cro magnon people The difficulty remains in the physiology of the bone structure which many experts believe would prevent them from speaking  the range of sounds needed for language  On the other hand the y had a hyoid bone which should have made speech possible.  I suspect that as speech spread after about 100000 years ago some neandertals also learned to speak  While it is not impossible for widespread mating to occur without communication (Heck apparently some women reckon this still occurs today ) :) it seems much more likely that   neandertals and cro magnon peoples could actually communicate with each other  quite effectively, to allow mixed families of the two groups 

One thing that concerns me is the suggested age of the resin (250000 years ) This is actually  well before the time of neandertals which is generally accepted to range from 130000 years ago to about 30000 years ago although this is not definitive.

 if you include what are sometimes called proto neandertals, you can push the time frame back far enough however . 

I don't have a lot of time right now but will post several links about Neandertals that you can read over I have a lot more but don't have time right now to look through them all. What you will see is just how similar they were to us and I do have links that I will later give you to show that they taught Hss certain skills that enabled them to advance.

http://www.academia.edu/1934588/Neanderthals_2.0_Evidence_for_expanded_social_networks_ethnic_diversity_and_encultured_landscapes_in_the_Late_Middle_Palaeolithic

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100111154914.htm

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/400-000-year-old-human-dna-adds-new-tangle-our-2D11690925

http://sjohn30.tripod.com/id2.html

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24031-first-bone-tools-suggest-neanderthals-taught-us-skills#.Ugw6V5ITFmc

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/ancient-dna-and-neanderthals/neanderthal-mitochondrial-and-nuclear-dna

 Now I have an old thread called "Decoding Neanderthals" that is 13 pages of mostly links where you may find it easier than me posting links in this thread for rebuttal with you and then this thread can return to it's regular programming.

jmccr8

 

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I think the regular programming on this thread ran out. LOL

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