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The Russian Hare

Kurds ready to 'pay any price' for freedom

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The Kurdish Regional Government (KRG) President Massoud Barzani said on Friday that Iraq’s Kurds were ready “to pay any price for freedom”, rejecting pressure to call off the referendum on independence planned for Monday in northern Iraq.

Adressing a rally in support of the vote in Erbil, the seat of the KRG, Barzani reacted to a United Nations Security Council statement that expressed on Thursday concern over the potential destabilising impact of the vote on Iraq.

Neighbouring countries and Western powers fear the vote could break up the country and stir broader regional ethnic and sectarian conflict. Turkey is holding army border exercises to underline its concerns Iraqi Kurdish separatism could feed insurrection on its soil.

Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yildirim said on live television on Friday the vote posed a threat to national security and Ankara “will do what is necessary” to protect itself. He did not elaborate.

 

 

http://www.france24.com/en/20170922-kurds-ready-pay-price-independence-vote-nears

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This could trigger a civil war in Iraq and or Turkey.  The Kurds of northern Iraq have been the U.S. ONLY steadfast ally in the region.  I support their independence.  I'd make them an offer for help if they allowed us to build the same magnitude of bases in that region that we now have in Turkey.  You know, those bases we're about to be booted out of by Erdog?

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http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/iraq/for-iraq-s-long-suffering-kurds-independence-beckons-1.2094466

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Assuming the vote passes, Kurdish officials say, it will set in motion a formal breakaway process, including negotiations with the Iraqi government and a diplomatic push to win the support of regional powers.

We have been mistreated throughout history,” said Masrour Barzani, the chancellor of the Kurdistan Region Security Council and the son of the region’s president, Massoud Barzani, who is leading the drive for sovereignty. “We as a nation have every right to self-determination.”

He added, “We believe it is the right time” to seek independence.

 

 

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Voting began in northern Iraq on Monday in an independence referendum organised by Kurdish authorities, ignoring pressure from Baghdad, threats from neighbouring Turkey and Iran, and international warnings it may ignite yet more regional conflict.

The vote, expected to deliver a comfortable “yes” for independence, is not binding. However, it is designed to give Massoud Barzani, who heads the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG), a mandate to negotiate the secession of the oil producing region with Baghdad and neighbouring states.

 

 

 

http://www.france24.com/en/20170925-iraq-defying-baghdad-iraqi-kurds-vote-kurdistan-independence-referendum

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On 9/22/2017 at 11:33 PM, and then said:

This could trigger a civil war in Iraq and or Turkey.  The Kurds of northern Iraq have been the U.S. ONLY steadfast ally in the region.  I support their independence.  I'd make them an offer for help if they allowed us to build the same magnitude of bases in that region that we now have in Turkey.  You know, those bases we're about to be booted out of by Erdog?

Well, suppose there WAS civil war ? Would it matter ?

Iraq was invented by the British back in the 1920's.... it didn't exist before. If it fragments and ceases to exist as a result of Kurdish Independence, will anyone mourn ?

As for Turkey.. well.. that's a different kettle of fish altogether. They have modern training and equipment.... I'm not sure that the Kurdish Pegmara - being basically light infantry - could resist turkish heavy armour and air-strikes ?

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International laws are violated for long time now. What i do not understand is how the Kurds are so naive here... America can't afford another Israel like ally in the region.

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Posted (edited)

43 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

International laws are violated for long time now. What i do not understand is how the Kurds are so naive here... America can't afford another Israel like ally in the region.

What, another dynamic, civilized, egalitarian, democratic secular ally ? Why wouldn't they want another such ally in the region ? Surely they'd be keen on the idea ? :P

Wether the Kurds would FORM such a society is another matter entirely :)

Edited by RoofGardener

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4 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

What, another dynamic, civilized, egalitarian, democratic secular ally ?

That is very romantic ;) 

4 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Wether the Kurds would FORM such a society is another matter entirely :)

Yeah, trully another matter and by itself that is very broad issue ( whole concept of making new state in the region ) and highly unlikely by my opinion because many countries have problems with security and Kurds could not survive in new state there because they could not provide full security to it's people, not logistically nor with experience with security and intelligence agencies. If we add up that Turkey, Iraq, Iran and most likely Syria too wont support them then it is easy to realize that they will be in a lot of problems.

Mainly why i mention the USA here is that with full USA support they could survive first few years and then they might be able to provide for their people by themselves.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

.......

Mainly why i mention the USA here is that with full USA support they could survive first few years and then they might be able to provide for their people by themselves.

Hmm.... you make a fair point, based on our current knowledge. 

But then... well... you where the first to raise the comparison with Israel. Let us not forget... in 1948.. nobody expected them to survive the initial attack by the seven Arab armies. 

I have NO idea what will happen. But... from the comfort of my Armchair... lets us not forget that Armchair Generals have been wrong before. :D

Also.. the only thing I think we CAN immediately agree on, is that the situation will be .... uncertain. 

Which is an EXCELLENT opportunity to use that emote 'wot I nicked. 

smileys-afraid-494036.gif.a5425de344267fc4aa26f0542df5d866.gif

Edited by RoofGardener

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10 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, suppose there WAS civil war ? Would it matter ?

Iraq was invented by the British back in the 1920's.... it didn't exist before. If it fragments and ceases to exist as a result of Kurdish Independence, will anyone mourn ?

As for Turkey.. well.. that's a different kettle of fish altogether. They have modern training and equipment.... I'm not sure that the Kurdish Pegmara - being basically light infantry - could resist turkish heavy armour and air-strikes ?

I fully support the Kurds' right to independence.  I would give them intel and weapons to fight that armor if I were in charge here but, alas, Trump doesn't agree.  As to training, the Peshmerga ("those who face death") have accomplished a tremendous amount of death-dealing with only small arms and some air-cover.  My guess is that if they vote yes on the referendum, they will be willing to fight an insurgency INSIDE Turkey, Iraq and Iran if those leaders decide to kill the new country in its crib.

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On 22/09/2017 at 11:33 PM, and then said:

This could trigger a civil war in Iraq and or Turkey.  The Kurds of northern Iraq have been the U.S. ONLY steadfast ally in the region.  I support their independence.  I'd make them an offer for help if they allowed us to build the same magnitude of bases in that region that we now have in Turkey.  You know, those bases we're about to be booted out of by Erdog?

The Kurds where stead fast in their determination to fight ISIS because they kept one eye on the prize, that prize was future independence backed by the US, after their efforts fighting along side Western forces we'll naturally agree like you just have to back their independence claim but before were to hasty lets look at the long term consequences. we don't want it coming back and biting us on the ass.

 

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26 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

The Kurds where stead fast in their determination to fight ISIS because they kept one eye on the prize, that prize was future independence backed by the US, after their efforts fighting along side Western forces we'll naturally agree like you just have to back their independence claim but before were to hasty lets look at the long term consequences. we don't want it coming back and biting us on the ass.

 

Their bid for independence will surely cause some chaos but the fact is that they are the ONLY Muslim entity in Iraq that has been a consistent ally of the U.S.  Even while we were still bogged down and taking casualties, they were friends and had put together a relatively safe, prosperous enclave up north.  I'd say they've earned the right to fight for their independence.  As for things coming back and biting us down the road, what's new?  We (U.S.) are genuinely going to be in need of a LOT of land in a friendly neighborhood to rebuild a system of bases to replace Incirlik.  It's just a matter of time before Turkey shows us the door.

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1 minute ago, and then said:

Their bid for independence will surely cause some chaos but the fact is that they are the ONLY Muslim entity in Iraq that has been a consistent ally of the U.S.  Even while we were still bogged down and taking casualties, they were friends and had put together a relatively safe, prosperous enclave up north.  I'd say they've earned the right to fight for their independence.  As for things coming back and biting us down the road, what's new?  We (U.S.) are genuinely going to be in need of a LOT of land in a friendly neighborhood to rebuild a system of bases to replace Incirlik.  It's just a matter of time before Turkey shows us the door.

I wouldn't get involved. they've fought on our side, thank them for their efforts, but lets not forget they were fighting first and foremost for themselves, it was just convenient to ally themselves with Western Forces - but if we back their independence it could lead to a struggle where the loss of (Kurdish) life will number in the thousands all for a hopeless struggle that they will never be achieved. Turkey is a regional power, they wont allow the Kurds to declare independence and if the Kurds gained territorial independence in Northern Iraq, how long before they pushed for territorial gains. which would involve, Turkey, Iran. Iraq.

learn the lessons of History, use the Arab tribal mentality to your advantage and then move on. don't linger in a foriegn land 10,000 miles from home. its not the USA's place, a lesson that should be well learnt by now. Iraq, Iran, Syria. Libya.

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IRBIL, Iraq (AP) — Iraq's Kurds voted overwhelmingly in favor of independence from Iraq, but faced being left stranded after Baghdad ordered international flights to halt service to Kurdish airports starting Friday. Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi ruled out the use of force, but vowed to take other measures to keep his country from breaking apart as the standoff looked set to worsen.

https://apnews.com/574d3426b1544fdb86363631d2072f02/92-percent-of-Iraqi-Kurds-voted-in-favor-of-independence

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ANOTHER thing for us to avoid getting tangled up with. 

 

This joke was told to me back in the 90s by an Iraqi fellow, it shows how the Kurds are seen by the Iraqi; 

{note; I don't even like it, but it is here to show what's up over there}

 

"So this Kurd comes down out of the hills and drives into Baghdad, and he sees a traffic light. He has never seen one before in his life, so he pulls over to the side and asks this fellow walking down the sidawalk what it is.

The Arab; "Huh? You never... where are you from, anyway?"

The Kurd; "I'm a Kurd!"

The Arab is thinking Ah, finally, my chance! and says; "Okay, so when it's green that means the Arabs can go. When it turns red, that means its time for the Kurds to go on through."

The Kurd says "Thank you!" and drives on. He stops and the Green light, and just sits there. All kinds of people are honking behind him, but he doesn't care (he's a Kurd, after all). When the light turns Red, he hits the Gas. There is a Cop standing right there and he jumps out, waving his club and bellows at the driver "What the hell do you think you are doing?!?"

He sticks his head out the window, smiles, and says "I'm a Kurd!"

The Cop just shakes his head, steps back and says "Oh... well, be my guest." and waves him through. 

 

:rolleyes:

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On 9/25/2017 at 7:36 AM, RoofGardener said:

Well, suppose there WAS civil war ? Would it matter ?

Iraq was invented by the British back in the 1920's.... it didn't exist before. If it fragments and ceases to exist as a result of Kurdish Independence, will anyone mourn ?

As for Turkey.. well.. that's a different kettle of fish altogether. They have modern training and equipment.... I'm not sure that the Kurdish Pegmara - being basically light infantry - could resist turkish heavy armour and air-strikes ?

It's unusual to read of anyone from the UK that remember truth about past history. I seldom see it here.

The Ottoman Empire, which included the provinces of Baghdad, Basra and Mosul, entered World War I on the side of the Central Powers (Germany and Austria-Hungary), and immediately became a target for British imperial ambitions.[1] Soon after substantial Anglo-Indian army was raised, which landed in Basra in November 1914. The local defending forces soon fled, and the British decided to push on towards Baghdad. However the Turkish Ottoman forces proved more resilient than expected and the Anglo-Indian force surrendered in April 1916. New British forces eventually arrived in Basra in greater numbers, and by March 1917 were able to capture Baghdad.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq–United_Kingdom_relations

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On 9/28/2017 at 0:16 AM, AnchorSteam said:

ANOTHER thing for us to avoid getting tangled up with. 

 

This joke was told to me back in the 90s by an Iraqi fellow, it shows how the Kurds are seen by the Iraqi; 

{note; I don't even like it, but it is here to show what's up over there}

 

"So this Kurd comes down out of the hills and drives into Baghdad, and he sees a traffic light. He has never seen one before in his life, so he pulls over to the side and asks this fellow walking down the sidawalk what it is.

The Arab; "Huh? You never... where are you from, anyway?"

The Kurd; "I'm a Kurd!"

The Arab is thinking Ah, finally, my chance! and says; "Okay, so when it's green that means the Arabs can go. When it turns red, that means its time for the Kurds to go on through."

The Kurd says "Thank you!" and drives on. He stops and the Green light, and just sits there. All kinds of people are honking behind him, but he doesn't care (he's a Kurd, after all). When the light turns Red, he hits the Gas. There is a Cop standing right there and he jumps out, waving his club and bellows at the driver "What the hell do you think you are doing?!?"

He sticks his head out the window, smiles, and says "I'm a Kurd!"

The Cop just shakes his head, steps back and says "Oh... well, be my guest." and waves him through. 

 

:rolleyes:

 that's cute, it's also messed up.

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On 9/26/2017 at 8:21 AM, stevewinn said:

I wouldn't get involved. they've fought on our side, thank them for their efforts, but lets not forget they were fighting first and foremost for themselves, it was just convenient to ally themselves with Western Forces - but if we back their independence it could lead to a struggle where the loss of (Kurdish) life will number in the thousands all for a hopeless struggle that they will never be achieved. Turkey is a regional power, they wont allow the Kurds to declare independence and if the Kurds gained territorial independence in Northern Iraq, how long before they pushed for territorial gains. which would involve, Turkey, Iran. Iraq.

learn the lessons of History, use the Arab tribal mentality to your advantage and then move on. don't linger in a foriegn land 10,000 miles from home. its not the USA's place, a lesson that should be well learnt by now. Iraq, Iran, Syria. Libya.

power struggles everywhere.

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And Then are you getting the two Kurd groups mixed up? There's the Turkish Kurds which Turkey doesn't like and the Iraqi Kurds which a few problems but seem to get on with them 

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On 10/2/2017 at 5:32 AM, Mr.United_Nations said:

And Then are you getting the two Kurd groups mixed up? There's the Turkish Kurds which Turkey doesn't like and the Iraqi Kurds which a few problems but seem to get on with them 

I generally view them as separate representatives of a common people.  This is about Kurdish Independence, regardless of which part of their former territory is concerned.  Witness the reaction by ALL the governments that could potentially lose land and assets.  Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and Syria all will fight against this outcome.  

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2 hours ago, Gromdor said:

So now two American trained, American equipped groups are shooting at each other.........  https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/16/world/middleeast/kirkuk-iraq-kurds.html

 

Without open support from the U.S., the Kurds cannot hope to win a straight-up fight with any of the countries that will oppose them but they can create a TREMENDOUS drain on resources for all those countries.  I think it is shameful that we seem to be abandoning the only group that has mostly had our back for years.  They make MUCH better allies than Erdog's minions.

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Iraqi army, Shiite militia and Peshmerga exchange heavy fire north of Kirkuk

11:40 pm

 

"As you see, it was a very heavy fight," said Peshmerga commander Anwari Haji Othman in Pirde. 

The Peshmerga claimed they destroyed 2 tanks, 12 Humvees, and 1 armoured personnel carrier of the Shiite force.

Iraqi forces have stated that Pirde (Altun Kupri) is under their full control.

---

10:27 pm

Kurdistan security council condemns global ‘silence’ on Iraqi ‘aggression’

The Kurdistan Region Security Council (KRSC) has condemned the “deafening silence” from the world as Iraq, with Iranian support, has attacked Kurdistan. 

At 8 o’clock Friday morning, the Iraqi army and Hashd al-Shaabi, “armed with American weapons, launched an unprovoked, multi-pronged attack” on the Peshmerga, the KRSC stated, in a press release on Friday evening. The Iraqi forces attacked from the west on the Dubiz-Erbil road and on the east from near Qarabag village. 

“Their objective was to enter Qushtapa in South of Erbil,” the KRSC claimed. 

Karim Nuri, a commander in the Hashd al-Shaabi, had earlier denied that they intended to enter Erbil, but had been ordered by Iraqi PM Abadi to stop at the Kirkuk-Erbil border. 

The KRSC said the “Peshmerga bravely defended Kurdistan in today’s attack,” in which the Iraqi forces used American weapons that had been provided for the war against ISIS. 

The security council laid blame on global powers for sitting idly by while Iraqi forces carried out their attacks that have “destabilized at least three of the country’s safest provinces.”

“The deafening silence from the international community has emboldened Iraq and neighbouring countries to attack Kurdistan. The army ostensibly created to defend the people is used today to attack the people of Kurdistan. Iraq’s continued attacks have confirmed Kurds’ legitimate fears about our future in this country. The international community must now intervene and condemn Iraq’s aggressive military attacks.”

The KRSC called on Iraqi forces to withdraw from “occupied territories.”

Iraqi forces have stated that Pirde (Altun Kupri) is under their full control. 

Read more

Damn it...

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