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The Russian Hare

Sweden to expand military, start conscription

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http://news.sky.com/story/aurora-17-nervous-sweden-stages-huge-military-exercise-11048669

Quote

 

Faced with a paucity of volunteers, the government will bring in conscription next month, eight years after scrapping it.

A national ad campaign has been launched to drum up some enthusiasm. It says: "Now everyone can train with the defence force."

Unsurprisingly, not everyone is buying it. The topic has been hotly contested, for example, by players at Spela Paintball just outside Stockholm.

"We haven't had it for quite a few years," said Johan Wallsten.

"People who join may not be happy - they've got their own lives now. Before, you joined the army when you quit school that's the way it was."

The military will screen 100,000 people for suitability before settling on 4,000 recruits - and that number will be split evenly between men and women.

 

 

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It's amazing how every single politician in the "free West" always reads exactly the same script about the Red Menace, doesn't it. Mention Ukraine in dark tones to remind everyone that the Great Bear is just waiting to gobble you all up if the military doesn't get given lots and lots more money right now. But it's good to see that not everyone seems to be falling for it, that's encouraging at least. 

Anyway, they say they can't get the numbers, but they seem to be only aiming for 4,000 out of 100,000. You'd have to be very very unlucky to be one of the happy few who were chosen, it would seem. 

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There was some Danish politician, it may have been the Aggression Defense Minister, just the other day who was saying exactly the same thing, since apparently Vlad Stalin had installed missiles in Kaliningrad that were apparently specifically aimed at Denmark, they'd have to reintroduce conscription PDQ. Quite how conscript troops were expected to defend against sophisticated cruise missiles wasn't explained. 

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

There was some Danish politician, it may have been the Aggression Defense Minister, just the other day who was saying exactly the same thing, since apparently Vlad Stalin had installed missiles in Kaliningrad that were apparently specifically aimed at Denmark, they'd have to reintroduce conscription PDQ. Quite how conscript troops were expected to defend against sophisticated cruise missiles wasn't explained. 

We can't really reintroduce consciption, since we never disbanded it in the first place.

Anyway how dare countries prepare to defend themselves. :whistle:

Edited by Noteverythingisaconspiracy
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While I don't consider Russia as great a danger as most do, I think that their behavior in Ukraine/Crimea/Georgia is indicative of adventurism that needs to be recognized and resisted.  If it isn't, Vlad may decide NATO is a paper tiger.  It's the same old story - appear weak and you WILL be tested.

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6 minutes ago, and then said:

While I don't consider Russia as great a danger as most do, I think that their behavior in Ukraine/Crimea/Georgia is indicative of adventurism that needs to be recognized and resisted.  If it isn't, Vlad may decide NATO is a paper tiger.  It's the same old story - appear weak and you WILL be tested.

I don't often agree with you, but in this case I certainly do. :tu:

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In the countries who have conscription or recently re-introduced it how long would such a defence force last in the event Ivan came calling.

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8 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

In the countries who have conscription or recently re-introduced it how long would such a defence force last in the event Ivan came calling.

yes, that's exactly my point. What do you think they or anyone else would be likely to do if they did decide to want to seize Denmark or Sweden or anywhere else? they'd launch an enormous air and missile bombardment first of all wouldn't they. Short-term National Service conscripts aren't going to be much use defending against that are they. Only if the landing ships actually come onto the beaches or the paratroops start descending from the skies might they be any kind of practical defence, and even then I wouldn't give much for their chances against highly trained professional airborne troops. it's all a pure gimmick to feed public insecurity, that's all it is. 

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25 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

yes, that's exactly my point. What do you think they or anyone else would be likely to do if they did decide to want to seize Denmark or Sweden or anywhere else? they'd launch an enormous air and missile bombardment first of all wouldn't they. Short-term National Service conscripts aren't going to be much use defending against that are they. Only if the landing ships actually come onto the beaches or the paratroops start descending from the skies might they be any kind of practical defence, and even then I wouldn't give much for their chances against highly trained professional airborne troops. it's all a pure gimmick to feed public insecurity, that's all it is. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, stevewinn said:

In the countries who have conscription or recently re-introduced it how long would such a defence force last in the event Ivan came calling.

The proposed Swedish conscription program is not designed to resist a Russian invasion. Its purpose is to allow ISIS to continue training its troops, following the loss of their bases in Syria :)

Edited by RoofGardener

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On 9/23/2017 at 2:39 PM, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

There was some Danish politician, it may have been the Aggression Defense Minister, just the other day who was saying exactly the same thing, since apparently Vlad Stalin had installed missiles in Kaliningrad that were apparently specifically aimed at Denmark, they'd have to reintroduce conscription PDQ. Quite how conscript troops were expected to defend against sophisticated cruise missiles wasn't explained. 

No ground troops would be effective against such a bombardment and that's not the point.  Restarting conscription is just a sign of resistance to a perceived threat. That is, it sends a message.  And as you are well aware, bombardment by aircraft, missile or tubes is just a preliminary phase of the dance.  Your doubt about the efficacy of conscripts facing "professionally trained airborne troops" made me smile just a little.  Those airborne troops are all conscripts except for a small percentage of professional NCOs.  I'm unaware of airborne forces being involved in Chechnya but if they were, a lot of those soldiers probably aren't in service any longer. Most of the initial "little green men" in Crimea/Ukraine were likely Spetznaz.  My point is that the Russian armed forces are not as battle-hardened as even Hizballah or the IRGC in Syria.  All those conscripts in the NATO nations have to be able to do is slow the Bear down for a matter of days until they can be reinforced.  Vlad can't afford to lose ANY of his prestige or image at home.  He won't risk it.

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

yes, that's exactly my point. What do you think they or anyone else would be likely to do if they did decide to want to seize Denmark or Sweden or anywhere else? they'd launch an enormous air and missile bombardment first of all wouldn't they. Short-term National Service conscripts aren't going to be much use defending against that are they. Only if the landing ships actually come onto the beaches or the paratroops start descending from the skies might they be any kind of practical defence, and even then I wouldn't give much for their chances against highly trained professional airborne troops. it's all a pure gimmick to feed public insecurity, that's all it is. 

I am not sure what you are proposing that countries like Sweden and Denmark should do then ?

Should we do nothing ? The last time we tried that it resulted in a 5 year occupation.  

In any event the main task of a countrys armed forces isn't to fight wars, it is to present a credible defence so no one is going to start a war in the first place.

Edited by Noteverythingisaconspiracy
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4 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

I am not sure what you are proposing that countries like Sweden and Denmark should do then ?

Sophisticated (although therefore expensive) defenses are far more effective in the modern world than mere mass conscript armies, is my point. It's a mere political gesture to appease popular sentiment (although from the article, there doesn't appear to be a huge amount of popular sentiment for it in the first place.)

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8 hours ago, and then said:

He won't risk it.

Well of course he won't, there's no possible thing he could possibly get out of it other than to provoke NATO retaliation. People may think he's evil, but one thing he definitely isn't is suicidally insane. Therefore the whole issue is a non-starter really. 

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15 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Well of course he won't, there's no possible thing he could possibly get out of it other than to provoke NATO retaliation. People may think he's evil, but one thing he definitely isn't is suicidally insane. Therefore the whole issue is a non-starter really. 

No, he isn't insane, but he is a risk-taker and unless he sees real movement by NATO countries to bolster defenses he might just try to take one more prize before he backs off.  That isn't impossible at all.

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my first thought was that this is to do with creating the EU army and Sweden will be the test case and forerunner
for introducing conscription in those EU countries who don't already have it -

 

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2 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Sophisticated (although therefore expensive) defenses are far more effective in the modern world than mere mass conscript armies, is my point. It's a mere political gesture to appease popular sentiment (although from the article, there doesn't appear to be a huge amount of popular sentiment for it in the first place.)

Trouble is, we are all stuck in Terrorism mode at the moment, where people are blowing things up, and those doing the deeds expect their victims to capitulate.  This is not how a war plays out.  If an invasion takes place, sure there will be missile throwing and having nice shiny modern hardware is a great advantage, but when all's said and done, when the missiles stop, any invasion must be backed up by people, troops.  Infantry then becomes incredibly important.

I am not making any statements about conscription or about how likely a Russian invasion is, just making the point that infantry, regardless of how advanced your military tech is will never be obsolete.

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6 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Sophisticated (although therefore expensive) defenses are far more effective in the modern world than mere mass conscript armies, is my point.

I can't speak for Sweden, but we are converting some of our ship to carry anti ballistic missile defences and we are replacing our old F-16's with new F-35's. Its not like nothing is happening. In any event we are a member of NATO so we are hardly going to be alone in defending our country.

My original point was in regards to you claiming that Denmark was introducing consciption, despite the fact that we allready have it. You never seem to address that ? What was your source for that statement ? 

6 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

It's a mere political gesture to appease popular sentiment (although from the article, there doesn't appear to be a huge amount of popular sentiment for it in the first place.)

Isn't it the role of a government to make the population feel safe ?

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1 hour ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

My original point was in regards to you claiming that Denmark was introducing consciption, despite the fact that we allready have it. You never seem to address that ? What was your source for that statement ? 

Manfred probably got Denmark mixed up with Sweden - apparently a common occurrence. My wife, who is Norwegian, is often asked what Sweden is like.

A Swedish acquaintance told me that the recent ending and reinstating of national service in Sweden was more of a legal technicality than anything to do with increased threats from Russia, or wherever. Conscription for men was mandatory until 2010. This was then mothballed rather than outright abolished. This was to allow for the easier passage of laws allowing for gender-neutral conscription, which is now the situation. In these strange days of "fake news", that sounds like as good an explanation as any.

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1 hour ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Isn't it the role of a government to make the population feel safe ?

Who knows, it may be different in Denmark, which may indeed be the utopia that we all yearn for, but in most countries it's usually just the opposite, since a population that's perpetually vaguly anxious in some indeterminate way is much easy to keep in line. Or perhaps at best to keep them nice and subdued by the provision of  "entertainment", so they won't rock the boat. 

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12 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Should we do nothing ? The last time we tried that it resulted in a 5 year occupation.

Until now I had never read much about the German invasion of Denmark in 1940. From what I can see it looks like your government was stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they had mobilized troops and set up a defense force, that would have looked like provocation and given the Germans a reason to attack. By not setting up a defense force, when the Germans did attack - which they had planned to do all along - they met little resistance. Hopefully, Europe will never again endure a time like that. 

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10 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

Until now I had never read much about the German invasion of Denmark in 1940. From what I can see it looks like your government was stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they had mobilized troops and set up a defense force, that would have looked like provocation and given the Germans a reason to attack. By not setting up a defense force, when the Germans did attack - which they had planned to do all along - they met little resistance. Hopefully, Europe will never again endure a time like that. 

True. Making sure not to be in a situation like that again is why we were one of the founding members of NATO. 

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11 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Who knows, it may be different in Denmark, which may indeed be the utopia that we all yearn for, but in most countries it's usually just the opposite, since a population that's perpetually vaguly anxious in some indeterminate way is much easy to keep in line. Or perhaps at best to keep them nice and subdued by the provision of  "entertainment", so they won't rock the boat. 

Our government have significantly less than half the seats in parliament, so if they really are trying to "keep people in line" they aren't doing a very good job are they ? :rolleyes:

As for entertainment the government have very little influence over what people watches or reads. thanks to the internet (You have that in your country right ?) people can pretty much see whatever they want. The day of the monopoly ended decades ago.

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11 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

Manfred probably got Denmark mixed up with Sweden - apparently a common occurrence. My wife, who is Norwegian, is often asked what Sweden is like.

Mixing up Sweden and Norway is fine by me, but mixing up Denmark with Sweden or Norway is a duelling issue. :P

Duel3

11 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

A Swedish acquaintance told me that the recent ending and reinstating of national service in Sweden was more of a legal technicality than anything to do with increased threats from Russia, or wherever. Conscription for men was mandatory until 2010. This was then mothballed rather than outright abolished. This was to allow for the easier passage of laws allowing for gender-neutral conscription, which is now the situation. In these strange days of "fake news", that sounds like as good an explanation as any.

You might be right about mixing it up, but I still think that people ought to make sure they atleast get the country right. Is that really so much to ask for ?

(This complaint is in no way addressed to you Derek)

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Posted (edited)

16 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

Manfred probably got Denmark mixed up with Sweden - apparently a common occurrence. My wife, who is Norwegian, is often asked what Sweden is like.

it's very kind of you to suggest it, but I do know the difference between Denmark and Sweden thank you. I also know the difference between the Kattegat and the Skagerrak, which I bet not everyone does. 

Edited by Manfred von Dreidecker

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