Outlawing faith

[MauriOra]

6 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

To know Faith, one's own very personal Faith, is to walk in it's garden, alone. Some gardens are beautiful, awash with the color and the fragrance of flowers, redolent with their perfumes and riotous with the songs of myriad birds. Others are dreary places, unloved and forgotten, "unweeded gardens, gone to seed. Things rank and gross in nature possess them, merely." I find it curious yet inspiring  that even some who profess to know not God abide in the most beautiful of gardens. One's statement of Faith is who one is, what one is, how one is and what one says. It is the person, themselves, who is the statement of their Faith and none other.

I agree. Beautiful HC. .

[MauriOra]

7 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Hi, Mauri  I hope you realize, I'm not mocking or being sarcastic or anything. I'm profoundly curious in how you see this. I feel, there have been a lot of behaviors, activities, and such brought up, that is thought to be done in such ways. For me, I even entertain the thought it might. And heck, invention and creativity, I feel stems from necessity and individual speculation of different paths to a solution. Though, I also feel, in the long run, a lot of things don't pan out to what I think, and still feel the need to use what is what I need. 

I have come to know, in my life, that certain things cannot be done over all, and that something can be done, but it's in rare situations to happen, and thus still in the subjective sense. For me, I feel things have to make sense to believe. And I feel, to believe, is to have the basis of experience, observation, and something backed up to have me honestly believe. My point, how is it things can be done, and where is the proof that they can be. 

Is there something you  know, with sources, that could explain it?  

Again, not mocking, just curious and really am interested in your thoughts and opinions.  

 

Hi StubblyD , thank you for being respectful. I like your question and will answer as best I can. Just gotta get this bReign to work.. I have no Sources just my own experiences. Which is a source too I guess. I  resonate with what MW says. It rings true to me. As does a lot of things I read here. We're all Teachers and Students simultaneously. I have read many of your posts too and learnt a lot thank you.  I'll answer your question shortly.. nice to meet u..

[+Hammerclaw]

54 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

I understand that but you cannot outlaw something that is innate to human beings. This thread has well established that. Indeed I'd go so far as to say it proves we need faith to survive. So I wondered how the thread would have evolved if...

In this context 'outlawing faith' isn't amenable to much more meaningful discussion. Unless you have more to add?

It's a hypothetical discussion on Faith meaning it's permutations are endless.

[+Sherapy]

5 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

The best part of being here is learning to like and appreciate different-minded people, to widen one's perspective beyond the narrow vision of monoculturalism.

For me, it is to marvel at well oiled minds, that have challenged themselves, have looked beyond the superficial and gone within and come back out with some good insights, and set aside their perspective, one is not listening to another if  they are to busy telling them what they should believe. 

We have some incredible posters here, I can’t imagine not stopping in to read my favorites and learning something, or see something in a new way. 

For example: your insights on faith, they are seasoned and it is obvious you have looked into this deeply yourself. 

I prefer authenticity in a poster.

 

Edited October 21, 2017 by Sherapy

[+Hammerclaw]

9 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

For me, it is to marvel at well oiled minds, that have challenged themselves, have looked beyond the superficial and gone within and come back out with some good insights, and set aside their perspective, one is not listening to another if  they are to busy telling them what they should believe. 

We have some incredible posters here, I can’t imagine not stopping in to read my favorites and learning something, or see something in a new way. 

For example: your insights on faith, they are seasoned and it is obvious you have looked into this deeply yourself. 

I prefer authenticity in a poster.

 

I've noticed and admired the way your style and fluency in expression has evolved, advanced and become more coherent and elaborate. This sort of real time use of language textually, has helped both of us. I was something of a tyro when I first got a computer and it's helped my vocabulary and manner of expression in a rather short time. As such, this place is more important to me than facebook or twitter. Here, the overall level of intelligence is consistent with what I want to say.

I'm humbled by your words and as often inspired by your own. 

[+Hammerclaw]

Faith is fragile, like a beautiful but delicate flower, needing nurturing and equal measures of water, sun and shade. Not clad in iron, but soft clothing, yet it must stand the weathering of time and fate.  I know not what comfort it may bring in the hour of my passing. Will my eyes close and then awaken to a new dawn in a different place, or stay closed forever? Are we like dew, newly fallen on the rose, to only vanish away in the rising sun, or is there more to our seemingly ephemeral existence? Am I but an accident of nature, or am I a player in the troupe of life and all the world, indeed, a stage? Will I choose to play again? I know not.

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

I've noticed and admired the way your style and fluency in expression has evolved, advanced and become more coherent and elaborate. This sort of real time use of language textually, has helped both of us. I was something of a tyro when I first got a computer and it's helped my vocabulary and manner of expression in a rather short time. As such, this place is more important to me than facebook or twitter. Here, the overall level of intelligence is consistent with what I want to say.

I'm humbled by your words and as often inspired by your own. 

What is a tyro? 

[+Hammerclaw]

8 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

What is a tyro? 

A novice. A term from medieval Latin.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Hammerclaw

[+Sherapy]

55 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

A novice. A term from medieval Latin.

Aww, I see. This is a great place to practice writing. 

A good friend of mine who is a Proffessor of Literature always tells me the key to writing is the rewriting, the problem with thIs is it can become an obsession. I lean on the edit button quite a bit.

 

Edited October 21, 2017 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Faith is fragile, like a beautiful but delicate flower, needing nurturing and equal measures of water, sun and shade. Not clad in iron, but soft clothing, yet it must stand the weathering of time and fate.  I know not what comfort it may bring in the hour of my passing. Will my eyes close and then awaken to a new dawn in a different place, or stay closed forever? Are we like dew, newly fallen on the rose, to only vanish away in the rising sun, or is there more to our seemingly ephemeral existence? Am I but an accident of nature, or am I a player in the troupe of life and all the world, indeed, a stage? Will I choose to play again? I know not.

How do you nurture faith and to what end, if any at all? 

How does it help you with the uncertainty, the unknown, the unanswerable, for me it has been easier to accept the unknown, the uncertainty, and the unanswerable. It seems natural to not have an adgenda ( just meaning in this case a preference on what may or may not happen on something I can't know while living). 

Edited October 21, 2017 by Sherapy

[Stubbly_Dooright]

10 hours ago, Will Due said:

Thanks Stubbly. I appreciate all you do in this forum.

I will tell you that I see things almost identical to how you've described your spiritual religious experiences. I hope you don't mind that I just used the word religious in conjunction with the word spiritual. 

I too feel it's very important to never tell or describe those personal spiritual experiences that light the way personally and subjectively for our transformations. 

I've been talking about the essence of what you have just now described here by using the term "true religion"

I believe what you're experiencing is exactly that, true and spiritual in the greatest sense of what the word religion means. Especially in regard to how these experiences cause growth and a greater appreciation for everything, especially the relationships with others.

It's your sincerity Stubbly, that impresses most. It's a very good thing that I've gotten to know you through participating in UM. 

 

 

Awww, shucks, Will.   Thanks.   

And you wish to see it as religious, well why not? I do feel at times, they seem to be one and the same sometimes. And it feels natural to see my belief, as a religion sometimes.   

And yes, I feel, what you write about your religious experiences, seem to be the same as what I experience. I will say, when it comes to seeing something as 'true religion', I see that as a private personal subjective of my version of 'true religion' and that's just for me. I do see how you see what you believe in, as your 'true religion', and I find it hard to categorize it in an objective sense, but you know, that's me. 

[Aquila King]

6 hours ago, I'mConvinced said:

I wonder how this thread would have turned out if the word 'faith' was replaced with 'religious idolatry'? 

I gave up on this thread long ago. Just stoppin' in to see what's up.

I honestly don't know why you and people like jmccr8 and Sherapy spin your wheels like you do, but I commend your commitment.

[jmccr8]

59 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

How do you nurture faith and to what end, if any at all? 

How does it help you with the uncertainty, the unknown, the unanswerable, for me it has been easier to accept the unknown, the uncertainty, and the unanswerable. It seems natural to not have an adgenda ( just meaning in this case a preference on what may or may not happen on something I can't know while living). 

That is an interesting question Sherapy, maybe I just don't dwell on what ifs that much. For me I AM seems to give me what I need, I form goals and work to their end with no expectation of not getting there, I' m too stubborn/ strong willed to be broken, sure there are set backs and there is always a way around them. So I guess that for me my past provides my confidence in the future the faith that I have intelligence and can adapt myself and my environment. If there is something more after this life and I am me then I will face that with the same faith in me that I have now, and if there is nothing more then it has served me well in the life I live.

jmccr8

 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

5 hours ago, MauriOra said:

Hi StubblyD , thank you for being respectful. I like your question and will answer as best I can. Just gotta get this bReign to work.. I have no Sources just my own experiences. Which is a source too I guess. I  resonate with what MW says. It rings true to me. As does a lot of things I read here. We're all Teachers and Students simultaneously. I have read many of your posts too and learnt a lot thank you.  I'll answer your question shortly.. nice to meet u..

Well, I will be excited with what you have found.  And thank you for your kind words. 

 

[Aquila King]

8 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Walker

I am using my phone so I can't break down your post to address specific comments at this time.

Rape, murder and pedeofilic acts are committed by conscious intent and do not fall into the qualities of animal instinct which is more reactionary. The above stated crimes require reasoning and selection of victims and mode of  employment  these deliberate rationalizations. If you are interested the books that I read were written by John E Douglas who started the profiling of these serial offenders while working for the FBI. Your assertion that in modern times that animal instinct is not needed is lacking because it is adaptive to the environment that we live in, instead of predictors we become aware of traffic, the movement of overhead cranes at work the smell of chemicals and the sounds of tools all part of our survival instinct.

In so far as me not wanting to understand read what we have been discussing for the past year through different threads that this subject continues to arise in. When you said students you were a teacher so if they were your peers then you should have identified them as fellow students, none the less I still find your claim suspect. If these boys had beaten all the other boys in your school/neighborhood and this was your first experience of defending yourself after having been bullied and being fearful then what you have written doesn't ring true. I am surprised that he would have been gracious enough to have given you the time to tell him how you were going to use that pencil or took it away and made you eat it first, he was an experienced fighter and had likely been threatened by more intimidating foes than you.

What we are discussing is knowledge gained through experience and reading, if it will help you understand I will post pics of my work and you can explain to me how you could do that work of the same quality with just reading a book.

Understand that I did study drafting and did read and still do to augment my physical skills. I did not pursue a career in drafting because I don't like sitting at a desk day after day and enjoy making things with my hands. I can go to work  wearing cutoffs and a suntan an breath fresh air and don't have to go to the gym to workout. For me it's a win win situation and I apply the same learning process in all areas of interest the combination of physical experience and reading.

Whether you think that you have more experience than me is a pointless distraction from the discussion, I have always told you that we live in different environments with different interests and that there are some things that I will not discuss through this medium. You don't need to complete because that is not why I am here as I am very confident in who and what I am and for me based on my environment many of the things you claim are straight up laughable so if you don't want to get called on it stick to the topic.

jmccr8

Well done my friend, well done. A simple like of this does not suffice, I had to quote it as well.

And to @Mr Walker, Your comments on rape and pedophilia are deplorable. You should be ashamed. I'm glad you showed me who you truly are.

[Mr Walker]

18 hours ago, MauriOra said:

Quite correct. I absolutely comprehend everything you've said and am puzzled as to why others cannot get the gist of what your explaining. It's clear and concise and articulated very well in my opinion.. My own Experiences mirror what you say..that's probably why I get it.. 

I believe that some people honestly do not believe that they can control their emotional responses and thus their behaviours Others are not so honest and want an excuse to behave badly so argue that humans simply cannot exert enough will and discipline to control their thoughts and behaviours .

Some people think that if something is "natural " it must be better than anything a human can do Ie that it is normal to tear your hair out with grief and not normal to feel only a small amount of grief Others think anger is natural and unavoidable. Many people do not realise that our behaviours and responses, are learned and often culturally specific.  

[Mr Walker]

16 hours ago, Wes4747 said:

Weeeellllll..... This post is much like some other thing that looks good on paper- but in real world applications, it is utter nonsense.

You think you control your philosophies? You choose them? Yet previously we have discussed environmental factors molding who we are. Your views, the ones you have "chosen" to hold true guide your actions. 

I propose that our world has molded your views much more than any original thought or inspiration you think you might have had.

What lets me know you have this illusion? This view of yourself you share constantly. Though your philosophies seem to be improving, you still have failed to break the great illusion.

I wish you well. 

 A self aware human mind is just that, Ie slef aware. it has the cognitive abilities to think objectively and subjectively, to understand the interplay of conscious and subconscious thought and the nature and purpose of dreams imagination etc.

it can operate in several modes a t once processing thousands of images and pieces of data a second  and use the interplay between those modes to examine and compare the outcomes of different strategies and lines of thought,  using rational, intuitive, imaginative or other mental processes. It can think linearly or using forms of mind mapping.

  We can analyse ourselves and come to know and understand who we are how we came ot be as we are and how to reconstruct ourselves into what we want to be How we constructed our beliefs values and opinions on any subject My parents made me aware of these things as a preschooler and i've been working with them since my first conscious memories  So yes i choose how and why i construct my philosophies I first formed a conscious value line, based on prioritising outcomes when difernt values were applied when i was 3 or 4 years old 

 I use an outcome based, criteria referenced system to decide what are positive constructive values and hence actions and behaviours. I choose certain things to be more important, based on similar criteria referenced value based judgements. I take on expert advice and test its validity but don't simply accept it as valid. 

And then I read. i read millions and millions of words by tens of thousands of peole. And in those worlds i find interesting, unusual,conflicting, complementary, challenging and motivating, ideas and concepts.

So i sift through them and consciously apply those which will improve my life based on those values and criteria established in child hood   i am constantly in the now adapting evolving responding and thinking by using the past present and future to extrapolate analyse and  evaluate optimal ways of thinking and behaving Thus when about 12 or 13 i consciously incorporated Asimov's 3 laws of robotics as my own core laws of behaviour  And i did this deliberately and consciously because the y met my existing values and priorities.    I still make mistakes and get things wrong But only rarely, and almost never with serious consequences on me or others  

Of course my world has molded  me and my thoughts The biggest example is that, while i have a little background in other languages i really only speak or read English and so, of course,  my data input is limited to that language. However i am aware of this limitation and the influences it has on cultural perspective. I do what i can to overcome it by reading translations from other languages and watching a wide range of programmes, both contemporary and historical, from other non english speaking  countries  which have very different core values and attitudes. Currently these include turkish, korean, chinese, german, A couple of the baltic nations  and a couple of scandinavian ones.

So it is not  nonsense for me. It is my life and how i have lived and shaped it since i was about 3 years old   i set out my life plan in childhood and achieved all my goals by the time i was 30 introducing new ones  adapting and evolving as i went along  Then i rewrote a second and   i am now well into my third. I control and shape my life, the person whom i am, and how i behave.  No one else can do this  except  with my consent 9eg i work in a n equal and shared partnership with my wife which causes me to rearrange some of my individual and perona values and behaviours   I am a significantly difernt man after 40 years of marriage than i would have been if unmarried or married to another person. But i have also theoretically plotted these changes and differences, to see who i would have been if i had married an earlier girlfriend or remained single.

Once you really understand the capacity of the human mind, and begin to use it effectively, anyone can comprehend that we have control over ourselves and thus we have a great responsibility to use that power wisely and well.   Humans are the only entity on earth who can construct the future as they want, and choose, it to be, both for themselves and for our species 

[+Hammerclaw]

3 hours ago, Sherapy said:

How do you nurture faith and to what end, if any at all? 

How does it help you with the uncertainty, the unknown, the unanswerable, for me it has been easier to accept the unknown, the uncertainty, and the unanswerable. It seems natural to not have an adgenda ( just meaning in this case a preference on what may or may not happen on something I can't know while living). 

What end? Well, that is the question, isn't it? Is death the end, or simply the end of a journey and the start of another? Is it the end of spiritual childhood and the doorway to adulthood? Is it the sweet oblivion of your own desire? It seems natural to me to yearn for more. You are still in the high Summer of your life. I'm in mid Autumn of mine--and Winter's coming. perhaps that is key to the difference in our perspectives.

[Mr Walker]

13 hours ago, I'mConvinced said:

This is far too simplistic a view. Emotions are entwined on a fundamental level and our definitions are poor attempts to separate them. 

There is no need for us to discuss this topic further, I now understand your position and we'll endlessly disagree.

You have moved away from the original argument we were having, you ignore the contradictions I point out and offer no explanation. You barely address a single question I ask but rather shift the goalposts to suit your argument.

All of this is a shame because our views on many things align quite nicely. Where we differ is in how the mind really works. I've experienced things you have not and this is why I know you to be wrong in this regard. This is just like you with your God connection and psychic powers. You say I can't understand because I haven't experienced them, well, you need to apply this same logic to yourself.

 

 

 

I do not see myslef as shifting position but others as misunderstanding my responses and indeed altering the nature of the original proposition.  
my god connection and psychic  powers have less to do with this issue than basic human psychology and cognitive processing, which as it happens i actually have a university degree and post graduate diploma in, and 40 years of on the job experience 

You can OBSERVE the electrochemical response typifying a response like anger or hate or fear In a brain   And you can measure the connective response of the body to the brain's  cognitive awareness, and construction, of fear or anger or hate  as the body responds with chemical and other changes,  to the brain's evolving electro chemical  state.

The abilty to control emotional responses is not a god given power it is an evolved condition of the human mind caused by the evolved connection between mind and body. i began practising this about 3 years of age,  for a personal reason i dont want to go into again  God never entered my mind at that age  i knew that humans choose the emotional states they experience, as i had observed my parents, and others, abilty to do so,  and so i simply decided i would always have conscious control of every emotional response to every stimuli i encountered, to ensure i never hurt another person by losing control . 

[Crazy Horse]

On 30 September 2017 at 6:08 AM, Wes4747 said:

Should all things requiring faith be outlawed? I will make my case.

All cults rely on faith. Cults are like drugs and.... Drugs are bad... Um kayyy?

All religions rely on faith and.... Religions cause divisiveness, wars and pass out judgements among "the others" to ensure divisiveness. Oh and the uh-faith healing deaths.

The lottery... Should potential players be asked upon buying the ticket whether they are playing for fun, or faith in knowing they will win. The latter seems to blow more grocery money.

In love. Faith and hope that that special someone will love the faithful one back, usually get crushed leaving the faithful devestated and potentially suicidal. If not homicidal. If its love, ya dont need faith.

What good is faith? Who does hope help? 

Religions don't cause wars, bankers and politians do. Religion may be used as a tool for either good or bad, but that all depends on the strength of the individual practitioner, their morals and ethics, wisdom and compassion. It has nothing to do with faith, ignorance is the problem here.

Anybody guilable enough to buy a lottery ticket expecting, knowing, that they are going to win is setting themselves up for a fall/fool. Hopefully experience will set them straight.

I have a faith in Love born of personal experience and a common sense.  

I have a faith in Humanity, in our collective future working together.

I also have a faith in God.

The point is, my faith helps me overcome lifes difficult moments. It helps me to see the good, the positive, the way out of suffering. So instead of trying to ban faith, lets try to enlighten folk with wisdom and compassion.

[+Hammerclaw]

3 hours ago, Sherapy said:

How do you nurture faith and to what end, if any at all? 

How does it help you with the uncertainty, the unknown, the unanswerable, for me it has been easier to accept the unknown, the uncertainty, and the unanswerable. It seems natural to not have an adgenda ( just meaning in this case a preference on what may or may not happen on something I can't know while living). 

I overlooked your first question. I immerse myself in the Faith of others, as disparate and unique as I can find. I stand in the light of the Grace they bestow upon others and are, thus, bother humble and exalted. Understand, this is from my personal perspective, not a sermon, not a preaching not an attempt to proselyte. If there is a God, it matters not if you know Him or believe in Him/Her, however one is comfortable relating to their creator, as long as that Creator, that God, believes in you. How do I know this? I don't.

[Mr Walker]

13 hours ago, Grandpa Greenman said:

That is just BS, Walker.  Our brains, for one thing, react to stimulus before we even know we are reacting to it.  My guess is you have never cared for a person with dementia.  .I have three times over, plus having a disease of the central nervous system myself.   I have often wonder how people who think we are nothing but soul explain dementia.  When people get dementia their whole personality changes. I had a neighbor couple, the wife was as sweet as she could be. After she got alzheimer's she completely changed.  They went for a walk past my house every morning, but one day she decided she did want to go for a walk and turned on her husband, it took two of us to pull her off him.  He ended up having to put her in a nursing home that could handle violent patients.  I sat with him one evening while he tried to understand why the loving wife was gone and who had taken her place. His christian faith didn't hold any answers for him.   

No it is complete truth. it is physically impossible for something to react before it is stimulated. We might argue about the nature of the stimulation or the nature of the brain's subconscious compared with conscious response times, but it is impossible to react to something you are unaware of 

LOl  ^6 years caring for two people 24/7 with increasing dementia until the y could not even eat unassisted  (technically alzheimer's but still classed as a form of dementia)  until both died at home with us  And during that time a LOT of intensive study on the causes effects and ways to manage the disease.

You have just described both my parents in law  but i don't get your point or your argument  You are making mine for me. Once we lose a conscious connection with our mind and our sense of self awareness we lose the qualities and abilities that  I am talking about which is why i often preface my remarks with things like " adult"  or a " functioning mind "    While technically  still human and just as much, loved pop and mum, were no longer functioning human beings  They didn't know who they were, where they were, or how to control bodily functions.  Try living for 6 years with people you love, who dont know who each other is, and yes can be either violent or dangerous, through  simple forgetfulness; washing them toileting them feeding them. Calming them, trying to keep them happy and content and with some stimulation and enjoyment. When we put them into a home  for  a short respite the y came back black and blue  were tied to beds or chairs   and on a couple of occasions escaped  out a window because there was not one on one supervision of them,  so we looked after them without respite,  with a couple of hours a week in house help, to let us both get out together for an afternoon

 

What have i missed that you are annoyed about.    The human soul is our self aware consciousness We grow and evolve it from birth or even before in the womb and we grow it through life, shaping it for good or evil.

When we die it also dies and if we are brain injured or have end stage dementia then we can lose our soul before our body dies  In my reckoning, dad still had his soul when his heart gave out, and he died in his sleep but by the time mum died, in a much less aware condition, she no longer had her soul. It had gone with her self aware consciousness, leaving an empty, but still living, shell.  

 

Ps these were the words i used intha t post 

 

 EVERY adult, functioning, human has the physical abilty to control,their body by application of mind, will and discipline   

  Alzheimer's/dementia suffers are no longer functional and are arguably no longer "human"   In a similar way, neither are very young children fully functional because their brains and minds have not yet matured just a s an older person's may deteriorate below a functional capacity   You can tell when a person is not functioning as an adult because others restrict its abilty to act independently  . 

Edited October 21, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Crazy Horse]

3 hours ago, Sherapy said:

How do you nurture faith and to what end, if any at all? 

How does it help you with the uncertainty, the unknown, the unanswerable, for me it has been easier to accept the unknown, the uncertainty, and the unanswerable. It seems natural to not have an adgenda ( just meaning in this case a preference on what may or may not happen on something I can't know while living). 

Hi Sherapy.

Personally I nurture faith by putting it to the test, or applying certain ideas and strongly held beliefs anytime I find myself facing a tough decision or a difficult moment. Or seeing what transpires when I lack the moral fortitude.

So my belief systems are being reinforced and redifined and fine tuned almost constantly, yet there are a few ideals that are fundimental. The belief and faith in Love and Freedom for example are in my opinion crucial for humanities evolution.

As for uncertainty, the unknown and the unanswerable, I guess these are the mysteries of life. We can look at these with fearful eyes or we can rise to the challenge! Personally I like to play this game with as much skill and verve, love and laughter as possible, setting a new "personal best" whenever possible. One level of attainment simple becomes the foundation for our next build.

And it is OUR build.

[I'mConvinced]

2 hours ago, Aquila King said:

I gave up on this thread long ago. Just stoppin' in to see what's up.

I honestly don't know why you and people like jmccr8 and Sherapy spin your wheels like you do, but I commend your commitment.

It comes from a passion for debate combined with a love for the medium. 

The virtual world allows opportunity for discussion with people I would never usually meet.

[I'mConvinced]

7 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

It's a hypothetical discussion on Faith meaning it's permutations are endless.

It's a hypothetical discussion on outlawing faith. If it was just a discussion on faith I'd agree.

Those permutations have become endless only since we strayed from topic.