Outlawing faith

[jmccr8]

22 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Clearly you don't read my posts carefully. I was only in hospital BECAUSE god had given me an earlier prophetic dream, alerting me to the possibility, and  thus helping me recognise the very minor symptoms I had prior to going to the doctors for a check up The doctors said that, until the y did a  monitor of my chest, using dies and a  tv monitor type machine which showed over 80% blockage in 3 of the 4 major arteries   they couldn't find anything wrong with me. I was apparently well yet my  arteries were so blocked i would have dropped dead sometime in the next few months without treatment. That is why they call it, along with strokes, the silent killer.

What you have said is that your agent appeared as a handsome well-dressed man that brought you a bible and when you opened it you received a message. what I would like to know if you follow the Christian bible as a guide how do you resolve the first commandment,"thou shall not have any god before me" and you have a god that is not the biblical god? And I would like you to point form show what your alien has revealed to you that makes you believe that this entity is god.

jmccr8

[rodentraiser]

On Friday, September 29, 2017 at 10:08 PM, Wes4747 said:

Should all things requiring faith be outlawed? I will make my case.

All cults rely on faith. Cults are like drugs and.... Drugs are bad... Um kayyy?

All religions rely on faith and.... Religions cause divisiveness, wars and pass out judgements among "the others" to ensure divisiveness. Oh and the uh-faith healing deaths.

The lottery... Should potential players be asked upon buying the ticket whether they are playing for fun, or faith in knowing they will win. The latter seems to blow more grocery money.

In love. Faith and hope that that special someone will love the faithful one back, usually get crushed leaving the faithful devestated and potentially suicidal. If not homicidal. If its love, ya dont need faith.

What good is faith? Who does hope help? 

I always hate it when you guys start the party early without me.

Anyway, why outlaw faith? Instead, why not outlaw faith that tries to outlaw someone else's faith?

[Mr Walker]

5 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

What you have said is that your agent appeared as a handsome well-dressed man that brought you a bible and when you opened it you received a message. what I would like to know if you follow the Christian bible as a guide how do you resolve the first commandment,"thou shall not have any god before me" and you have a god that is not the biblical god? And I would like you to point form show what your alien has revealed to you that makes you believe that this entity is god.

jmccr8

The entity i know IS the god of the bible There is only one cosmic consciousness (probably  )  The god of Genghis khan the gods of ancient Egypt, of  Rome, Greece  Sumeria. of the native Americans ALL are representations of the one god, based either on human imagination OR on perception of  that entity during real contact with it. But  social culture, and individual culture, scientific knowledge,  technology,  knowledge of human history,  knowledge of  past human god,s  and self understanding ALL impact on how we perceive our world and that includes how we perceive "god" 

i don't understand your last sentence but it doesn't matter, because neither I nor the entity consider it to be a god.  My name for it varies from the cosmic consciousness (which is a descriptive label)  to mate. which is how i often address it, albeit with respect.   However since cromagnon times humans have sensed, perceived, interacted with, and named this entity something like  "god"  (Maybe a spirit or a dryad or a nymph, or  many other names, from ra to thor to coyote.

  As civilisations and societies become more knowledgeable and sophisticated so their representations and understandings of god evolve   Some think of it a s monotheistic others a s pantheistic Some see it as fallible and quite human, others as omniscient and omnipotent. 

It has the same powers and abilities (but not omnipotence or omniscience which i do not think the god of the bible demonstrates, either, in the narrative of the bible)  and can manifest in the same ways as the entity called god in the bible. And this is how most westerners of today would see it  so on UM I refer to it simply as god, but you will note i normally don't capitalise it.   

from my sig.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, 

that is a direct quote, from the desiderata, but god is not human and thus not male, either  One, more correctly, should think of god as an it. 

god "came down to earth" ie manifested,  as a human, in the bible, and even wrestled with one of the characters in it. (Jacob)  

Edited November 9, 2017 by Mr Walker

[I'mConvinced]

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I don't see a big difference between my wife and my god. Both are smarter and wiser than i am, and i do as i am told by both .  Luckily i also have some dogs.

 So what would your wife's IQ be? 200? I mean it's unusual enough that you would be on the top 10 highest IQ's ever tested but for your wife to be even smarter? You couldn't make it up...oh wait.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Absolutely  Anyone can see one  future given enough data and  computational power we use this abilty all the time to set our course make our decisions etc. 

This is nothing like an alien being who can already see all futures.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Any slef ware evolved sentient being will be similar to others at a similar  level of evolution

Except you don't hold this standard across the board.  There are many self aware animals yet you dismiss this as not being the same TYPE of self awareness humans have.  If this is the case then how can you compare yourself to an alien species far, far beyond our evolutionary level? You are as stupid to it as animals are to you.

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Fear is never rational. It is a biological impulse.

Fear itself is neither rational or irrational, it is simply an experience.  However, you can have a rational or irrational fear of something.  It is rational to fear being shot by a man with a gun but it is irrational to fear a four legged whale turning up at your house and eating you.

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 Er how can you KNOW another beings motivations and intent, including your children, You cant read thei r minds You attribute YOUR motivations and intents TO them, which is different 

I already explained this but you didn't like the answer, regardless i'll give it again.  There are a limited number of motivations a human being can have because, wait for it, they are a limited human being.  They are driven by the same needs, wants. desires, fears etc as all other humans and they are limited in their capabilities by their physical and mental limits.  These limits are understandable because we all share these traits and so I don't need to read their mind to know what their possible motivations might be or what they might do to achieve those ends.  When it comes to super powerful alien races and what they might want and how they might go about achieving that are complete unknowns to us. 

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

It doesn't manipulate me.  No being can manipulate a fully self aware entity without its conscious consent, and then its not manipulation.

I think you need to look up the definition of manipulate:

"control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly or unscrupulously."

The idea that human beings can't be manipulated is ridiculous in the extreme and just another example of you grasping at straws.  I have already explained how you could be being manipulated by this being and you would never know.  You can ignore this inconvenient truth but it doesn't make it go away.  If this being is not God and it is working against God's will then it has already manipulated you into avoiding the deaths you should have had.  You think this being is God because it told you so.  In reality it could be anything, the devil included.

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

This entity  helps me and empowers me and protects me  if it is fattening me up to feast on, then its taking an awfully long time

It has all the time in the universe, what is a long time to you is peanuts to this entity.  This is a battle for your soul not your physical being...

[XenoFish]

So god wants big fat ego's for dinner? 

[Will Due]

God wants you to limit your free will ego, substitute your will with his, and follow him.

 

 

[XenoFish]

2 hours ago, Will Due said:

God wants you to limit your free will ego, substitute your will with his, and follow him.

 

 

Why? Why would god need such a thing? The thought that an omnipotent being would need mortal vessels to work through doesn't make sense. 

[FrethKindheart]

18 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Why? Why would god need such a thing? The thought that an omnipotent being would need mortal vessels to work through doesn't make sense. 

God created us and walked and talked with us before sin took hold.  God made us to be a part of His existence, to be with us and love us, because we're His children.  Any parent would want their children to love them and to show honor and respect, to be family.  Keep in mind, we were created without sin and God is sinless, righteous and holy.  God simply wants us to break free from sin and be with Him.  To do that, we have to make that leap, because we are given free will.  Man sees it from a sinful and selfish angle, that God needs our worship and is forcing it on us.  No, God is calling us home to a sinless world and to love and family with not only each other, but with Him.  In order for us to live with God, we need to take on the righteous character of God and let go of the sin which has corrupted us to the point of denying our creator.  When you believe in God and put your faith in Him completely, you love Him and want to escape sin, to please Him.  Just like a son wants to please His father by obeying and making Him proud.  We're set to inherit paradise, but we have to break free from sin and look to God.  God doesn't force you to do anything, but when you're a Christian, you want to please Him, so you do your best to live as He would have you live, through love for God, the reason we exist in the first place.  Seeking the kingdom of God not only pleases Him, but brings peace and love into your life; a calm that has to be felt to be understood.

Man is stubborn and selfish, putting himself and this world over God and the kingdom of heaven.  There's nothing in this world that's not going to pass away when Jesus returns.  It's just like money, you can't take it with you.

[XenoFish]

Yet this perfect god created something imperfect. How can perfection beget the imperfect. If we are like god and we are imperfect, then god is imperfect. If we are like god and perfect, sin is an illusion.

[Will Due]

24 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Why? Why would god need such a thing? The thought that an omnipotent being would need mortal vessels to work through doesn't make sense. 

It's because God has limited his free wil in the finite realm of the universe from being absolute. His self-imposed free will limitations to his unlimited free will are what has allowed finity to exist within infinity. This is the image of God we are to become like by doing the same thing, limiting our own free will to become like him. Thereby displacing our will for his limited free will.

It's because of these limitations to the infinite number of ways God could have created the part of the universe where we live that we can know the rules or laws of nature that the discoveries of science uses to create for mankind all the contrivances that improve the comfort level of human existence. 

Apparently God has willed that he won't personally create what he can delegate others to do. We are in partnership with God in creating a lot of things. Our personal creative potential is definitely limited in the finite but in eternity, it could border on the infinite, in my opinion.

Eternity is a long time.

 

[XenoFish]

And how do you know the certainty of what you've wrote? That the statements you've made are the ultimate truth.

[Will Due]

8 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

And how do you know the certainty of what you've wrote? That the statements you've made are the ultimate truth.

The ultimate truth? I can't know that in the present.

But to me something like what I stated above is what's going on.

I hesitate to say it's obvious but nonetheless, there are a lot of things about life that indicate it to me.

 

 

[FrethKindheart]

27 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Yet this perfect god created something imperfect. How can perfection beget the imperfect. If we are like god and we are imperfect, then god is imperfect. If we are like god and perfect, sin is an illusion.

Lucifer fell from heaven, because he had free will and sought to set himself above God.  In his mind, he knew he was beautiful and felt he was worthy to be equal or above God, despite the fact that he was a created being.  Lucifer is an example of how a being who is perfect, but given free will, can go off the deep end and become evil.

Like it or not, evil exists in the universe.  A third of the angels were susceptible to it, because of Lucifer, and fell with him.

For man, a lesser created being, to be deceived by Satan (Lucifer) and corrupted, isn't that far a stretch.  Just because we were made perfect doesn't mean evil didn't exist.

The root of evil is self and selfishness.  We saw it in Lucifer, we saw it in Adam and Eve and we see it all around us.  God is selfless, even sending His son to die for us (God in the flesh).  He's given us a way back to a world without sin.  Imagine if God weren't merciful and loving.  You and I wouldn't exist right now.  A God that gives His creation free will is a just and righteous God.  Just like a father whose sons and daughters lose their way, God wants what's best for us, as His children--but He can't force us to change, we have to do it ourselves, of our own free will.

[FrethKindheart]

Genesis 3:17-19

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Here we see clearly that the ground was cursed and that Adam would have to come to terms with his fate, to have knowledge of good and evil and a propensity for sin for the rest of his life.

Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Adam would have to work hard for a living and face his eventual death.

Sin changed things forever.  No more immortality.  No more paradise in Eden.  Everything fighting against him.  Imagine how, after the first sin, it became easy to sin and do evil, because it was always in his mind to do so.

How much of this was a punishment from God and how much of it was the natural corruption of sin?  We just don't know.  Sin could be a scourge that has dire consequences in an otherwise perfect world, the likes of which we can't understand.

Edited November 9, 2017 by FrethKindheart

[XenoFish]

The choice between being in heaven with the Christian god or complete oblivion. I choose oblivion. 

 

[XenoFish]

Right now from the current responses, I'm unsure that I'm having a discussion or being preached to.

[+Hammerclaw]

11 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

The choice between being in heaven with the Christian god or complete oblivion. I choose oblivion. 

 

I have a nice flat in Bruma I don't use; be my guest.         

Edited November 9, 2017 by Hammerclaw

[XenoFish]

I have no issue with those that hold faith, it's the Fanatics that bother me.

[XenoFish]

7 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

I have a nice flat in Bruma I don't use; be my guest.

No thanks. I've got to clear out my little corner of Hell.

[+Hammerclaw]

7 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

No thanks. I've got to clear out my little corner of Hell.

As you wish. In my opinion, the only hell you'll find in an afterlife is the one you carry with you. 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Hammerclaw

[XenoFish]

32 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

the only hell you'll find in an afterlife is the one you carry with you.

The way I see it life can either be heaven or hellish. Choice is yours.

[+Hammerclaw]

3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The way I see it life can either be heaven or hellish. Choice is yours.

Or equal parts of both. We may not have a choice of what is dealt to us, but if there is a choice of what we take with us, I know what part I'm leaving behind.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Hammerclaw

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Or equal parts of both. We may not have a choice of what is dealt to us, but if there is a choice of what we take with us, I know what part I'm leaving behind.

Our lives at the end of the day and at our final breath are made of choices.

[rodentraiser]

7 hours ago, FrethKindheart said:

God created us and walked and talked with us before sin took hold.  God made us to be a part of His existence, to be with us and love us, because we're His children.  Any parent would want their children to love them and to show honor and respect, to be family.  Keep in mind, we were created without sin and God is sinless, righteous and holy.  God simply wants us to break free from sin and be with Him.  To do that, we have to make that leap, because we are given free will.  Man sees it from a sinful and selfish angle, that God needs our worship and is forcing it on us.  No, God is calling us home to a sinless world and to love and family with not only each other, but with Him.  In order for us to live with God, we need to take on the righteous character of God and let go of the sin which has corrupted us to the point of denying our creator.  When you believe in God and put your faith in Him completely, you love Him and want to escape sin, to please Him.  Just like a son wants to please His father by obeying and making Him proud.  We're set to inherit paradise, but we have to break free from sin and look to God.  God doesn't force you to do anything, but when you're a Christian, you want to please Him, so you do your best to live as He would have you live, through love for God, the reason we exist in the first place.  Seeking the kingdom of God not only pleases Him, but brings peace and love into your life; a calm that has to be felt to be understood.

Man is stubborn and selfish, putting himself and this world over God and the kingdom of heaven.  There's nothing in this world that's not going to pass away when Jesus returns.  It's just like money, you can't take it with you.

I had a father like that. He also thought he was sinless, righteous, and holy, and claimed he was omnipotent and wanted my love and obedience. If I didn't give him either, I was smote with a belt or the back of his hand. He also wanted to be proud of me and let me know that I would suffer for eternity if I didn't follow his advice.

I left home as soon as I could and I have no yearning whatsoever for another father like him.

 

[+Hammerclaw]

Just now, XenoFish said:

Our lives at the end of the day and at our final breath are made of choices.

Then we must strive to make good ones. The sun will most certainly set on our existence, here. Yet it may, also, rise in another place, in which we find our perspective here was but one of many, where we will inhale the first breath of another existence and breathe, yet again. Or maybe not--but it's a nice thought.