Outlawing faith

[jmccr8]

8 hours ago, Wes4747 said:

Humor me

It might work if we were to give everyone a lobotomy, of course we couldn"t tell people what we were doing so a cover story would be required.

jmccr8

[Aquila King]

6 hours ago, seanjo said:

Outlaw trying to force opinion on people.

Would that in itself be forcing an opinion on people, that forcing an opinion on people should be outlawed?

[Aquila King]

8 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Why waste time and energy trying to control other people's behavior when most folks are challenged simply to pilot themselves through life?

This ^ should be someone's Profile Quote. Pure gold.

[jmccr8]

7 hours ago, Wes4747 said:

Like"they have to be killing us for a reason! Our faith must be true!!"

Agreed. Why waste time and energy? So much to be done! You know its amazing the things we have outlawed...

So, we outlaw faith to help the sheeples pilot themselves through life.

Is it agreed the only pro of faith is that it makes you feel good? I can think of another, but only the faithful can probably figure it out-which i am not actually... 

Perhaps one who has studied people of faith as well...

Una mas?!

The only faith I really have is in myself because I am the only true known that I have.

jmccr8 

[Will Due]

It's the other way around Wes. There's already a law on the books, that you must have faith.

 

"Then came forward one of the groups of the Pharisees to ask harassing questions, and the spokesman, signaling to Jesus, said: "Master, I am a lawyer, and I would like to ask you which, in your opinion, is the greatest commandment?" Jesus answered: "There is but one commandment, and that one is the greatest of all, and that commandment is: 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, with all your mind and with all your strength.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second commandment is like this first; indeed, it springs directly therefrom, and it is: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these; on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

 

Sorry for quoting the Urantia Book. 

 

 

[Aquila King]

7 minutes ago, seanjo said:

That's a matter of opinion...

 

But no it's not, you are outlawing them trying to make you think the same as them, you aren't outlawing their opinion.

So basically, you think they shouldn't force others to think the same thing as you, so you force them to think that they shouldn't force others to think the same thing as you?

Seems legit.

[papageorge1]

7 hours ago, Wes4747 said:

Faith, pros? Whats a pro for you Papa?

I have an increased understanding of the nature of reality from the teachings of those spiritual masters whose reach into the nature of reality extends beyond my normal abilities. I have studied these things and formed my own objective faithless unemotional conclusion that these masters are highly likely understanding a truth beyond me normal thinking reach. It's a big pro for the Papa.

Now, actually, these masters tell us to not take their word for it but to experience for ourselves and then we will KNOW (as opposed to believing). As we are not likely to go deeper into the nature of reality in our first meditation session, we actually have to take what they tell us as a theory.

How far would science get if each person started at square zero and listened to nothing learned from the past masters?? Now, you might say that even though you haven't proved the teachings of advanced science for yourself, you accept it on faith knowing others more advanced than you have investigated. Similar thing.

[eight bits]

and then

Quote

The Romans tried to get rid of Christianity.  The more they tortured and killed, the more the faith grew

Too little, too late.

From a practical point of view; not advocating murder or torture as instruments of governance.

 

[I'mConvinced]

7 hours ago, Wes4747 said:

Pro of faith? Should be simple considering its a basic human requisite?

Without faith who would board an airplane?

[simplybill]

 Here in the US we've been immersed in Judeo/Christian ideology for so long that we mistakenly believe the Golden Rule is a given, that we humans have a natural empathy toward others, and therefore there's no need for God or religion to guide us in behaviors that benefit all of society. In reality, the opposite is true. Civilization lives on a knife's edge. Without a unifying, guiding principle, our societies are easily overthrown and returned to chaos. The benefits of faith, specifically Judeo/Christian ideology, become more evident as we promote godlessness.  Unfortunately, we see the benefits in our rearview mirror as we drive into a dark future.

   

Edited September 30, 2017 by simplybill

[I'mConvinced]

2 minutes ago, simplybill said:

The benefits of faith, specifically Judeo/Christian ideology, become more evident as we promote godlessness

A billion Muslims disagree.

[Vorg]

10 hours ago, Wes4747 said:

Should all things requiring faith be outlawed? I will make my case.

All cults rely on faith. Cults are like drugs and.... Drugs are bad... Um kayyy?

All religions rely on faith and.... Religions cause divisiveness, wars and pass out judgements among "the others" to ensure divisiveness. Oh and the uh-faith healing deaths.

The lottery... Should potential players be asked upon buying the ticket whether they are playing for fun, or faith in knowing they will win. The latter seems to blow more grocery money.

In love. Faith and hope that that special someone will love the faithful one back, usually get crushed leaving the faithful devestated and potentially suicidal. If not homicidal. If its love, ya dont need faith.

What good is faith? Who does hope help? 

Maybe we should ban sports too. People have faith (or a belief without knowing) their team will win, and at times when their team loses, rioting, fights and even deaths are caused by these actions. Some sports fans fit well within your "cult" status, carrying things well beyond the norm for being a "fan" of that team, to the point of downright silliness, being "fanatics" If I said "The Chicago Bears suck." "Or "insert your favorite team here" suck" in some places I would be beaten down, or even killed by "fanatics" It does happen.

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

 Here in the US we've been immersed in Judeo/Christian ideology for so long that we mistakenly believe the Golden Rule is a given, that we humans have a natural empathy toward others, and therefore there's no need for God or religion to guide us in behaviors that benefit all of society. In reality, the opposite is true. Civilization lives on a knife's edge. Without a unifying, guiding principle, our societies are easily overthrown and returned to chaos. The benefits of faith, specifically Judeo/Christian ideology, become more evident as we promote godlessness.  Unfortunately, we see the benefits in our rearview mirror as we drive into a dark future.

   

Man is an individual that relies on group interaction so religion does not need to exist for those interactions because the majority will always work to maintain unity. The development of religions create separation within groups.

jmccr8

[simplybill]

1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

Man is an individual that relies on group interaction so religion does not need to exist for those interactions because the majority will always work to maintain unity. The development of religions create separation within groups.

jmccr8

 Yes, other ideologies work also, but Judeo/Christian ideology, when held accountable to its own principles, leads to the greatest amount of freedom and justice for the greatest number of people.  

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Aquila King said:

So basically, you think they shouldn't force others to think the same thing as you, so you force them to think that they shouldn't force others to think the same thing as you?

Seems legit.

Or everyone could be allowed to believe what they wish without being persecuted for it so long as they remain nonviolent. 

[Will Due]

1 minute ago, and then said:

Or everyone could be allowed to believe what they wish without being persecuted for it so long as they remain nonviolent. 

It's a shame, America used to be like that before Obama was the POTUS.

 

 

[Viatorem]

Well we can say that there has been many wars fought in the name off religion but on the other hand religion is not to blaim for these wars it is the people starting the war in the name of religion and it would be guessing but I think the cause of that is on how things are interpretated or religion is named as cause for a ware where the real truth is something completly different like ground or oil or the opposing of how a country is ran by its goverment. 

Sounds strange I know, to put it short religion is named to rage a ware where religion is not the actual cause for that war.

[quiXilver]

so many things that cannot be policed:

belief

faith

bad taste

ignorance

stupidity

lack of vision

emotions

thoughts

physical sensations

paranoia

 

though many of these carry their own punishment along with their very essential nature... so it all seems to balance out in the end na?

 

 

[quiXilver]

yes.. but what to teach?

what. to. teach?

[spartan max2]

Faith is pretty much just another word for trust.

So you want to outlaw trust lol 

[Tatetopa]

11 hours ago, Wes4747 said:

Pro of faith? Should be simple considering its a basic human requisite?

Simple positive benefits of  Faith:

I propose that faith is an artifact of the human mind. In a mechanistic sense faith is a program in our operating system, an "app" if you will. I think it might exist without external stimulus.

As such, faith may be a way of focusing thought and marshaling efforts in a particular direction.  It may be a turbocharger to  override normal survival limitations and push  physical and mental efforts beyond sustainable levels.  In that way it could help individuals accomplish more that normal expectations would predict.  What some might call a miracle, I might say is human capability in overdrive. 

We have heard those anecdotes of people lifting cars or boulders off of their trapped children.  In emergency, our mind and body can focus on the moment.

Faith might also counteract fatalism and depression in dire situations.  Sometimes when faced with what appear to be overwhelming odds, the body and mind stop fighting and begin to shut down.  Faith might provide a last resort to continue the struggle for life.

So, my conclusion is that faith is a multi-use survival tool.  Why would anyone consider outlawing something so useful?

I know that my mechanistic argument might be dismissed by my religious friends.  Some might think faith is generated externally by God.  Others may choose to put their faith in gods, crystals, magic wands, or other talismans used to focus your thought.  If you can access faith by one of these methods then literally (and I don't mean figuratively) "More power to you."

Now a separate question that you have been addressing is the object of faith.  You can outlaw specific gods or idols as objects of faith.  You can argue that faith placed in the wrong object can be detrimental to the individual or to society.  That can be so.  I would not be so arrogant as to outlaw a faith that appears detrimental to an individual.  Perhaps the internal gains outweigh the external observable  effects.   

I would consider redirecting faith from socially toxic outcomes.  I would oppose any faith that sought to control me or my  community or threaten us with harm.

[Aquila King]

4 hours ago, and then said:

Or everyone could be allowed to believe what they wish without being persecuted for it so long as they remain nonviolent. 

 Bingo.

3 hours ago, seanjo said:

What I think is everyone is entitled to their own opinion and no one should be allowed to try to forcibly change that opinion. Education Education Education!

Education is key, but there's a fine line between education and indoctrination. The difference is in whether or not you teach certain things as unquestionable facts by which to stand upon (indoctrination), or whether you teach someone logic, reason, critical thinking, analytical skills, and creativity, along with the facts within an environment that encourages questioning everything and thinking for yourself (education).

Being able to discern the difference is vitally important to our future.

4 hours ago, Will Due said:

It's a shame, America used to be like that before Obama was the POTUS.

Do not even go there Will. Save it for the politics section. I'm sick of seeing this crap spill over into other threads. I would like for once to be able to discuss things without this **** being brought up all the time.

[Grandpa Greenman]

12 hours ago, and then said:

The Romans tried to get rid of Christianity.  The more they tortured and killed, the more the faith grew. 

Then the Christians turned around and did the same thing to people of other faiths and some of those they did obliterate along with the culture and most of the people..  If you're going to get rid of a religion you have to get rid of the culture that maintains the religion. The genocide/culturcide it takes do away with religion isn't worth it.  The Russians tried, Chinese tried, etc... they still got religion.    But with many things, like pants hanging halfway down your a**, eventually it will lose its appeal on its own. When you ban stuff, then people end up doing it, because it is banned.   I'm a Pagan, so I ended up doing a lot of study on ancient religions that have come and gone for one reason or another.  Pagans love to try to bring back those ole time religions, but when they do they are not the same religion.  We are not the same as our ancestors, so some of the things they did we can't and won't ever do, hopefully.  Instead of  burning a wicker man full of criminals and others folks we don't care for, like politicians, we put in little papers with wishes written on them, have a big fire, bang drums, and get drunk.  Pagans don't care what religion someone is, as long as they understand we got our own thing going on. Freedom of and from religion works just fine with me, along with a wide separation of  religion and state.  I think eventually most religions we have today, will either reform or die out on their own, to be replaced by some other half baked idea people become infatuated with. 

[Will Due]

30 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Do not even go there Will. Save it for the politics section. I'm sick of seeing this crap spill over into other threads. I would like for once to be able to discuss things without this **** being brought up all the time.

The truth is a difficult thing for some people I guess. 

 

 

[Will Due]

There already is a law that deals with faith and there are consequences for breaking this law. The law is:

Have living faith.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2017 by Will Due