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Wes4747

Outlawing faith

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7 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

I have a nice flat in Bruma I don't use; be my guest.

No thanks. I've got to clear out my little corner of Hell.^_^

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Posted (edited)

7 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

No thanks. I've got to clear out my little corner of Hell.^_^

9870a02e2e35-600x400.jpg

As you wish. In my opinion, the only hell you'll find in an afterlife is the one you carry with you. army_of_darkness.jpg

Edited by Hammerclaw
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32 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

the only hell you'll find in an afterlife is the one you carry with you.

The way I see it life can either be heaven or hellish. Choice is yours.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The way I see it life can either be heaven or hellish. Choice is yours.

Or equal parts of both. We may not have a choice of what is dealt to us, but if there is a choice of what we take with us, I know what part I'm leaving behind.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Or equal parts of both. We may not have a choice of what is dealt to us, but if there is a choice of what we take with us, I know what part I'm leaving behind.

Our lives at the end of the day and at our final breath are made of choices.

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7 hours ago, FrethKindheart said:

God created us and walked and talked with us before sin took hold.  God made us to be a part of His existence, to be with us and love us, because we're His children.  Any parent would want their children to love them and to show honor and respect, to be family.  Keep in mind, we were created without sin and God is sinless, righteous and holy.  God simply wants us to break free from sin and be with Him.  To do that, we have to make that leap, because we are given free will.  Man sees it from a sinful and selfish angle, that God needs our worship and is forcing it on us.  No, God is calling us home to a sinless world and to love and family with not only each other, but with Him.  In order for us to live with God, we need to take on the righteous character of God and let go of the sin which has corrupted us to the point of denying our creator.  When you believe in God and put your faith in Him completely, you love Him and want to escape sin, to please Him.  Just like a son wants to please His father by obeying and making Him proud.  We're set to inherit paradise, but we have to break free from sin and look to God.  God doesn't force you to do anything, but when you're a Christian, you want to please Him, so you do your best to live as He would have you live, through love for God, the reason we exist in the first place.  Seeking the kingdom of God not only pleases Him, but brings peace and love into your life; a calm that has to be felt to be understood.

Man is stubborn and selfish, putting himself and this world over God and the kingdom of heaven.  There's nothing in this world that's not going to pass away when Jesus returns.  It's just like money, you can't take it with you.

I had a father like that. He also thought he was sinless, righteous, and holy, and claimed he was omnipotent and wanted my love and obedience. If I didn't give him either, I was smote with a belt or the back of his hand. He also wanted to be proud of me and let me know that I would suffer for eternity if I didn't follow his advice.

I left home as soon as I could and I have no yearning whatsoever for another father like him.

 

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Just now, XenoFish said:

Our lives at the end of the day and at our final breath are made of choices.

Then we must strive to make good ones. The sun will most certainly set on our existence, here. Yet it may, also, rise in another place, in which we find our perspective here was but one of many, where we will inhale the first breath of another existence and breathe, yet again. Or maybe not--but it's a nice thought.

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12 hours ago, I'mConvinced said:

:huh: So what would your wife's IQ be? 200? I mean it's unusual enough that you would be on the top 10 highest IQ's ever tested but for your wife to be even smarter? You couldn't make it up...oh wait.

I am more intelligent than my wife by about 30 to 40 points She is smarter and wiser than i am. Different qualities 

This is nothing like an alien being who can already see all futures.

it is exactly the same in all but degree. Give a human enough data and computational power and we can do the same. Neither god nor man can see the future because it does not exist yet But we can extrapolate a variety of futures. 

Except you don't hold this standard across the board.  There are many self aware animals yet you dismiss this as not being the same TYPE of self awareness humans have.  If this is the case then how can you compare yourself to an alien species far, far beyond our evolutionary level? You are as stupid to it as animals are to you.

That is possible  However it might be like speech. Once the abilty to be self ware is evolved it does not alter much over time. What an entity learns to DO with the abilty, however, may change  There may well be entities out he re who are ven more advanced than the one(s) we call god. However they may be so advanced that the y have no interest in us   eg in the near future humans may be seen as gods by dogs and primates, but not to snakes or ants 

Fear itself is neither rational or irrational, it is simply an experience.  However, you can have a rational or irrational fear of something.  It is rational to fear being shot by a man with a gun but it is irrational to fear a four legged whale turning up at your house and eating you.

Fear is irrational  A thinking being can use a more rational way of thinking to improve survivablity.  Fear is a learned emotional response not an intellectual one.  Emotions are not rational as  only constructed thought can be rational.   CAUTION is a rational  response  as it is intellectually derived from data

I already explained this but you didn't like the answer, regardless i'll give it again.  There are a limited number of motivations a human being can have because, wait for it, they are a limited human being.  They are driven by the same needs, wants. desires, fears etc as all other humans and they are limited in their capabilities by their physical and mental limits.  These limits are understandable because we all share these traits and so I don't need to read their mind to know what their possible motivations might be or what they might do to achieve those ends.  When it comes to super powerful alien races and what they might want and how they might go about achieving that are complete unknowns to us. 

This doesn't explain how you can claim to know what is going on in the mind of another human being  Limited number or not.

Also i disagree based on logic A human can imagine anything   There is no technical or biological limitation on our abilty to imagine Thus also our motivations are limitless 

I am not sure that a human mind has any real limits, except in the speed of processing data,  and few people realise that our minds process  billions of  bits of data from our senses every second.  The brain actually processes 400 billion pieces of data a second, of which we are  consciously aware of about 2000.

You seem to think that aliens might be intentionally deceptive All a human can do is observe, record,analyse and extrapolate etc just a s we do with all things.  

 

I think you need to look up the definition of manipulate:

"control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly or unscrupulously."

And one cannot do this to  a  fully self ware being.  If a person is aware of it and accedes, then it is not manipulation but a form of consent.

A fully self aware being will know their own triggers recognise attempts at manipulation and ignore or counter them     

The idea that human beings can't be manipulated is ridiculous in the extreme and just another example of you grasping at straws.  I have already explained how you could be being manipulated by this being and you would never know.  You can ignore this inconvenient truth but it doesn't make it go away.  If this being is not God and it is working against God's will then it has already manipulated you into avoiding the deaths you should have had.  You think this being is God because it told you so.  In reality it could be anything, the devil included.

I said that I could not be manipulated and neither can any fully self awre being 

The nature of full self awareness  ( of self and connection to your internal and external environments)  means you  will recognise and counter any attempts at manipulation for what the y are.   If a person can be manipulated without realising it  then they are not fully understanding  and  aware of self  ( including their own psychological and biological  needs and drivers) or the nature of their connection to others,  and no it NEVER told me it was god and i don't perceive it a s god. It is not manipulating me becsuse i am granting it authority  and giving it permission to act  I do so for logical reason based on meeting my own needs 

I don't believe in heavens or hells and so neither affects my judgement. I am all about criteria referenced assessment and objective measurement of outcomes  

It has all the time in the universe, what is a long time to you is peanuts to this entity.  This is a battle for your soul not your physical being...

It is long lived but not immortal Until it demonstrates any harmful intent it would be illogical and counter productive to attribute such intent to it (Haven't oyu watched every episode of star trek ever made, to learn such a basic rule?)    You must be a terribly untrusting person :) 

Only i can form and shape my soul. I take full responsibility for this, and believe i do a pretty good job of it. I developed a comprehensive value line on all major  philosophical positions  ( based on ethics and moralities measured by criteria and outcomes) while i was still a child  I live by that, and this entity has never sought to compromise those values.

Why assume it will or had any need or intent to do so? What have you got against aliens?    

Tried to do this using correct quoting and lost the lot  so have replied in bold within your text

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9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Yet this perfect god created something imperfect. How can perfection beget the imperfect. If we are like god and we are imperfect, then god is imperfect. If we are like god and perfect, sin is an illusion.

That is simple.  Free will is perfect. Lack of free will is less perfect So a perfect world is one in which self aware entities HAVE free will, and exercise it constructively wisely  and creatively, NOT a world where we have no free will, and thus never do harm.  

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8 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The choice between being in heaven with the Christian god or complete oblivion. I choose oblivion. 

 

Maybe because that  is because you don't really understand  the construct of heaven (the new earth)  as envisaged by many.

First you exist in perfect incorruptible body in a world with no pain, suffering death etc.

Second you are basically the same as you are now;  and live a similar life, with sex  food etc just like adam and eve are described as living in eden.  However you are not driven by material needs because you know these will always be met, allowing you  to concentrate on your self, and growing learning evolving your self  You COULD choose to do evil but you choose not to. 

Third you have eternity to fill, but you have the universe to explore and billions of other life forms to get to know. The problem might be lack of time, not too much of it   

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17 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Tried to do this using correct quoting and lost the lot  so have replied in bold within your text

I can appreciate how that might happen, however I'm on a phone and it makes replying even harder. I will address the post when I'm next on a real computer.

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17 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Maybe because that  is because you don't really understand  the construct of heaven (the new earth)  as envisaged by many

As envisaged by you?

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, I'mConvinced said:

As envisaged by you?

No I don't believe in such things. However, i have studied  with, lived with, and known, many who do,. and read many books on the topic. For them it goes back to understanding the ;literal descriptions of life in   eden and  on the new earth, in the bible, and applying the physics such a description would entail.  Ie. accept  a god so powerful it simply alters the laws of physics as we know them, by an act of   will.

People who have faith in god, see god as good and loving. Thus they see a life organised and structured by god's laws, as good and loving.

Within those basic  parameters, individuals see "heaven"  as something the y would enjoy, and be happy spending life doing. Anything else would be hell, not heaven.  

So, for me, ( if i believed in an after life)   it would be about spending time with "people";  learning, growing, evolving, improving and  also travelling, sightseeing, and experiencing all the wonders of the universe .

Many people don't even realise that in the biblical story  humans dont go to heaven (the city of)  at death  or get to live their permanently   This is in part a confusion of heaven, as in the specific heavenly city, and heaven, as in the universe, of which humans are a part.  Eventually, in the bible story, humans live on the new earth, a place without pain suffering death or decay.   Humans are restored to the fold of all other species in the galaxy and indeed  in some interpretations become story tellers of what life was like living under the rule of Satan.

At present sin cuts us off from  god and heaven (in this interpretation of  the narrative) and once sin is removed, we rejoin our place in the councils of heaven, and the governance of the galaxy :)   

Edited by Mr Walker
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12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No I don't believe in such things.

So what do you believe in? Is death the final curtain call? 

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, I'mConvinced said:

So what do you believe in? Is death the final curtain call? 

I am agnostic to everything Ie i don't actively believe, nor actively disbelieve, in anything (with some exceptions, where i invest belief via faith eg i choose to believe and have faith that my wife loves me ) 

  I have a sort of line of probability and measure the likelihood of anything on the evidences for it  A t some point the probability reaches such a high point that i accept tha  it has become justified true belief  OR i gain personal experience which makes it knowledge. Or it goes the other way, and i come to know it is not true or real. 

On death  My line of probability is at about 90% that death is the end of all conscious self awreness and once the body/brain dies all cognitive function ceases The 10% doubt comes form personal experiences withe cosmic consciousness After my father died I began experimenting with access to the cosmic consciousness to see if i could access his memories ( All my life i have unconfirmable access to the lives of people  from the past  and been able to live within their lives as the y went about their daily lives (without evidences this is just controlled lucid dreaming of a very high level )

Any way abbreviated story After a bout 6 months i began to enter the stored virtual reality existence of my fathers life when he was a young man and had just started work and met my mother. I went with him on his motor bike as he took my mother  to country dances sporting events and other things from before my birth.  At the same time i talked to my mother about this time and went out to visit the locations seen in the dreams  Now it is not absolute but what i found was fascinating. My mother confirmed the accuracy of all i observed and when i went into those county halls you could still see the basic architecture cornices elaborate ceilings etc from the  forties, which i saw in my contact.

  MY father would talk to me. It was as if he was living his life and had no realisation of his death or indeed his future yet I knew it all  For me it was entering into a virtual reality recording of my father's life with the abilty to interact within it but not alter it. I chose not to talk to him or explain who i was   but the experiences were fascinating I explored his life for about a year of my own time until moving onto other experiments in the dream world  

So 10% of me thinks about the possibility that all our consciousnesses are being recorded as we live, and when we die they will be artificially or organically stored.  We wont be aware but others can access the stored memories like archives. After than I don't know.

Technically the memories might be re implanted in a new host and the person might become self ware again a s new stimuli and inputs begin  but i have no evidences for, or of, this having ever happened.   It COULD be the reality behind stories of reincarnation and peoples' memories of past lives. Or it might all be just wishful thinking. :) 

Edited by Mr Walker

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On 11/12/2017 at 0:26 AM, Mr Walker said:

I am agnostic to everything Ie i don't actively believe, nor actively disbelieve, in anything (with some exceptions, where i invest belief via faith eg i choose to believe and have faith that my wife loves me ) 

  I have a sort of line of probability and measure the likelihood of anything on the evidences for it  A t some point the probability reaches such a high point that i accept tha  it has become justified true belief  OR i gain personal experience which makes it knowledge. Or it goes the other way, and i come to know it is not true or real. 

On death  My line of probability is at about 90% that death is the end of all conscious self awreness and once the body/brain dies all cognitive function ceases The 10% doubt comes form personal experiences withe cosmic consciousness After my father died I began experimenting with access to the cosmic consciousness to see if i could access his memories ( All my life i have unconfirmable access to the lives of people  from the past  and been able to live within their lives as the y went about their daily lives (without evidences this is just controlled lucid dreaming of a very high level )

Any way abbreviated story After a bout 6 months i began to enter the stored virtual reality existence of my fathers life when he was a young man and had just started work and met my mother. I went with him on his motor bike as he took my mother  to country dances sporting events and other things from before my birth.  At the same time i talked to my mother about this time and went out to visit the locations seen in the dreams  Now it is not absolute but what i found was fascinating. My mother confirmed the accuracy of all i observed and when i went into those county halls you could still see the basic architecture cornices elaborate ceilings etc from the  forties, which i saw in my contact.

  MY father would talk to me. It was as if he was living his life and had no realisation of his death or indeed his future yet I knew it all  For me it was entering into a virtual reality recording of my father's life with the abilty to interact within it but not alter it. I chose not to talk to him or explain who i was   but the experiences were fascinating I explored his life for about a year of my own time until moving onto other experiments in the dream world  

So 10% of me thinks about the possibility that all our consciousnesses are being recorded as we live, and when we die they will be artificially or organically stored.  We wont be aware but others can access the stored memories like archives. After than I don't know.

Technically the memories might be re implanted in a new host and the person might become self ware again a s new stimuli and inputs begin  but i have no evidences for, or of, this having ever happened.   It COULD be the reality behind stories of reincarnation and peoples' memories of past lives. Or it might all be just wishful thinking. :) 

Thank you for sharing.  It is an interesting view for sure and not a million miles away from my current thinking...minus being in touch with god of course :P.

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I'm fascinated that this thread is still going, mostly because the premise, to me, is absurd. Why would you even want to outlaw faith? This is coming from me, a vocal anti-theist who considers religion to be actively detrimental to society. My hope for humanity is that we willingly divorce ourselves from religion, discarding superstition in favour of rationality. I want nothing more than to see a world where religion is a laughable relic of the past. But to ban it is not to change people, it is to suppress, which I generally don't agree with. If you suppress something, you're (usually, there are exceptions) saying that you're afraid of it.

That's not how you progress society, it's how to implement tyranny. It makes sense to ban and regulate dangerous substances, objects, and other physical things, but ideas? Banning an idea is a scary thing, and generally never works. Religion may be ridiculous, but it has every right to be ridiculous.

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Another problem with banning something is that people will crave it more. It's the whole kid and the cookie jar things.

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4 hours ago, Podo said:

 My hope for humanity is that we willingly divorce ourselves from religion, discarding superstition in favour of rationality. I want nothing more than to see a world where religion is a laughable relic of the past.

My hope is for humanity to transcend this world, and unfortunately Rationality has it's limits.

Edited by TruthSeeker_

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4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Another problem with banning something is that people will crave it more. It's the whole kid and the cookie jar things.

Yeah, that's what the Romans did, and look how that backfired on them.

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On 11/9/2017 at 3:11 AM, Mr Walker said:

The entity i know IS the god of the bible There is only one cosmic consciousness (probably  )  The god of Genghis khan the gods of ancient Egypt, of  Rome, Greece  Sumeria. of the native Americans ALL are representations of the one god, based either on human imagination OR on perception of  that entity during real contact with it. But  social culture, and individual culture, scientific knowledge,  technology,  knowledge of human history,  knowledge of  past human god,s  and self understanding ALL impact on how we perceive our world and that includes how we perceive "god" 

i don't understand your last sentence but it doesn't matter, because neither I nor the entity consider it to be a god.  My name for it varies from the cosmic consciousness (which is a descriptive label)  to mate. which is how i often address it, albeit with respect.   However since cromagnon times humans have sensed, perceived, interacted with, and named this entity something like  "god"  (Maybe a spirit or a dryad or a nymph, or  many other names, from ra to thor to coyote.

  As civilisations and societies become more knowledgeable and sophisticated so their representations and understandings of god evolve   Some think of it a s monotheistic others a s pantheistic Some see it as fallible and quite human, others as omniscient and omnipotent. 

It has the same powers and abilities (but not omnipotence or omniscience which i do not think the god of the bible demonstrates, either, in the narrative of the bible)  and can manifest in the same ways as the entity called god in the bible. And this is how most westerners of today would see it  so on UM I refer to it simply as god, but you will note i normally don't capitalise it.   

from my sig.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, 

that is a direct quote, from the desiderata, but god is not human and thus not male, either  One, more correctly, should think of god as an it. 

god "came down to earth" ie manifested,  as a human, in the bible, and even wrestled with one of the characters in it. (Jacob)  

Walker

The god of the bible is not described as not immortal like your alien, you haven't given any reference as to it's teachings and ascribe your perspective of what this god says.No, I don't believe that your alien is a god nor do I think he exists anywhere outside of your stories, for the last year you have said it can take a form and be seen by others and yet not once when you have been asked have you provided anything but your stories.No photos, it hasn't stepped up to show that you are it's prophet nor has there been any revelation and you try to link it to every unprovable religious deity that has not been shown to be anything more than some guy said god talked to him and said blah blah blah and everyone should just accept that as proof of existence.We disagree and there is no point in you trying to justify your brand of fiction to me, besides I thought I was on ignore so why quote me and try getting me back into dialogue with you, it is a waste of your time and not productive.

jmccr8

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3 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Walker

The god of the bible is not described as not immortal like your alien, you haven't given any reference as to it's teachings and ascribe your perspective of what this god says.No, I don't believe that your alien is a god nor do I think he exists anywhere outside of your stories, for the last year you have said it can take a form and be seen by others and yet not once when you have been asked have you provided anything but your stories.No photos, it hasn't stepped up to show that you are it's prophet nor has there been any revelation and you try to link it to every unprovable religious deity that has not been shown to be anything more than some guy said god talked to him and said blah blah blah and everyone should just accept that as proof of existence.We disagree and there is no point in you trying to justify your brand of fiction to me, besides I thought I was on ignore so why quote me and try getting me back into dialogue with you, it is a waste of your time and not productive.

jmccr8

Sorry but what has this to do with any thing? Humans perceive the gods they construct and the gods the y encounter through their own personal and cultural filters and understandings Not all Christians for example see the god of the bible in the same way and not all see it a s immortal or omniscient etc.  These are only qualities essential for a creator god which preexisted the universe and created it  and few modern day Christians are creationists. To many modern day Christians  them god is a powerful protective entity  with many shapes and forms depending on individual perception it is more the qualities of Christ as an avatar of god to whom they look rater than the qualities of god the father 

I don't carry a camera or a phone around with me, but even if i got a perfect picture of an avatar of god what would it mean to you ? . 

I don't know, but i suspect, that there is one powerful force /entity, or being, who has been guiding humans since the y evolved self aware consciousness and continues to do so. You only have to look at historical and contemporary accounts, from all over the world, to see the similarities    Ps you were on my ignore list but i hadn't realised that i also had to tick boxes for what i wanted ignored (shows how often i have used that facility)   I' ve now  ticked to ignore your posts but i wont guarantee that i wont respond if i see something really interesting.  

Edited by Mr Walker

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