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Guyver

Suffering?

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Hello.  So, anyway.....I'm suffering.  So there's that.  

But, regarding the topic....as a believer my biggest struggle right now is with the concept that God is good, inspite of the fact that life really is suffering.  I mean isn't it?

Now, having said that.....I really haven't done full diligence to the topic.  And that is my way.  I do think about things, specifically the nature of things.  For, if one really contemplates the nature of things, the base, the core....that's where understanding comes from.  So, having not given a full effort to the topic myself....I display some level of intellectual or spiritual laziness, and I admit that part.  Anyway....

So, on the topic.   My question is; what is your understanding of suffering?

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I do agree with the Buddhists that life is suffering.  I grant that.  And, I do respect their way of dealing with it.  I really do.  I do find some lack in it as well, and that may be a result of my own conditioning.....so I'm not ready to judge.  But, I guess my point is that life is suffering.....so that is a baseline.

Now, there are people who are remarkably positive....in spite of this.  I've seen it.....I'm amazed by it....but.....I don't really relate to it.  Maybe it's my own lack, or maybe it's just a front.  In any event, I think its apparent enough that life is suffering.  

Life is a constant struggle for survival, and that in and of itself demonstrates suffering.....so I hope that point doesn't even need to be debated.

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At the same time, it is that struggle for survival.....that....stay hungry....kill and live then reproduce aspect that really perfects the species.  So, it is very possible that suffering is actually a good thing with a positive potential.  Isn't it?

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There are unlimited ways of looking at this...

We are unlimited spiritual beings here to have a short term physical experience.  For those of us that excessively suffer it is like watching a sad or horror movie.  It's short term and some people like watching these things.

Another way of looking at it is that suffering is relative.  It's like those Hollywood actors that are wealthy, in shape, popular, etc, but still are miserable and drown themselves in drugs and alcohol whereas you can have an extremely poor person in a third world country that is happy almost every day.  It can be a matter of perspective.

Another thing can be that some suffering is natural and we just have been taught to look at it as something to avoid at all costs rather than to just grind through it as a natural part of life.

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What kind of suffering are you talking about?  There's a number of them and to attribute all of them to one cause is not a good way to proceed.

* you could suffer from chronic pain, for instance

* loss of a relationship

* loss of sense of purpose

* loss of a child or spouse

* loss of a home (refugees who have seen war and starvation)

* loss of a religion/religious philosphy

The Buddhist model of suffering doesn't provide any remedy for something like suffering frequent broken bones because you were born with osteogenesis imperfecta... or something like cystic fibrosis.

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Of all the stuff I been through the loss of my health has caused me the most pain and the biggest challenge. When you have your health you can solder through most anything. It is not just the pain, when you lose your health you become more dependent on others and you lose a good deal of freedom.  I am lucky I live where I do have health care.  I can't imagine going through this in a country without at least some kind provisions and care for the disabled.  I remember talking to someone in another country about a guy in his town who was disabled and couldn't walk.  I said, why doesn't he have a wheelchair, he said, he didn't have the money for one and the state won't get him one, because it would cost to much for help the disabled, because there is too many of them.   That is suffering.  

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Paying taxes is suffering. 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Guyver said:

Hello.  So, anyway.....I'm suffering.  So there's that.  

But, regarding the topic....as a believer my biggest struggle right now is with the concept that God is good, inspite of the fact that life really is suffering.  I mean isn't it?

Now, having said that.....I really haven't done full diligence to the topic.  And that is my way.  I do think about things, specifically the nature of things.  For, if one really contemplates the nature of things, the base, the core....that's where understanding comes from.  So, having not given a full effort to the topic myself....I display some level of intellectual or spiritual laziness, and I admit that part.  Anyway....

So, on the topic.   My question is; what is your understanding of suffering?

I suffer from chronic pain along with several other fun little gifts from Multiple Sclerosis.I was a christian when I got sick but for me the Buddhist angle on suffering really helped place my life in perspective. 

 What Are the Four Noble Truths? 

Quote
What are the four noble truths? Buddhism’s famed four truths are called noble because they liberate us from suffering. They are the Buddha’s basic teaching, encapsulating the entire Buddhist path.
 

 

1. Suffering

Life always involves suffering, in obvious and subtle forms. Even when things seem good, we always feel an undercurrent of anxiety and uncertainty inside.

2. The Cause of Suffering

The cause of suffering is craving and fundamental ignorance. We suffer because of our mistaken belief that we are a separate, independent, solid “I.” The painful and futile struggle to maintain this delusion of ego is known as samsara, or cyclic existence.

3. The End of Suffering

The good news is that our obscurations are temporary. They are like passing clouds that obscure the sun of our enlightened nature, which is always present. Therefore, suffering can end because our obscurations can be purified and awakened mind is always available to us.

4. The Path

By living ethically, practicing meditation, and developing wisdom, we can take exactly the same journey to enlightenment and freedom from suffering that the buddhas do. We too can wake up.

 

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It's suffering 

Reading this thread.

 

 

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There may be pain.

There may be discomfort.

This does not mean one suffers.

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54 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

I suffer from chronic pain along with several other fun little gifts from Multiple Sclerosis.I was a christian when I got sick but for me the Buddhist angle on suffering really helped place my life in perspective. 

 What Are the Four Noble Truths? 

 

Didn't know you had MS, too.  Kind of hard to keep Christian ideal of a loving god when the MS MonSter rears it ugly head. I didn't get that much from Buddhism other than meditation.  It is easier for me to just accept chaos as part of life.  Life is an imperfect system, we eventually break down like an old car. 

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14 hours ago, Spirit Ninja said:

Another thing can be that some suffering is natural and we just have been taught to look at it as something to avoid at all costs rather than to just grind through it as a natural part of life.

right.  Good answer.  

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58 minutes ago, quiXilver said:

There may be pain.

There may be discomfort.

This does not mean one suffers.

Very interesting.  Care to elaborate?  Contemplating your post reminds me of the Buddhist Monk who set himself on fire in protest of the Viet Nam War, and didn't even scream in pain.  

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1 minute ago, Grandpa Greenman said:

Didn't know you had MS, too.  Kind of hard to keep Christian ideal of a loving god when the MS MonSter rears it ugly head. I didn't get that much from Buddhism other than meditation.  It is easier for me to just accept chaos as part of life.  Life is an imperfect system, we eventually break down like an old car. 

Sorry to hear you're fighting the good fight as well.

 I dont really lean on Buddhism like I used to. It was really hard for me at first, more so psychologically than physically as I was in my early 30's and extremely physically fit and active , and the buddhist principles really helped me to get my head back on straight. The church went as far as to claim I somehow deserved getting sick and if I werent a sinner I wouldnt be ill...no lie ..and when I was a zombie laying in bed waiting to die and decided to try medicinal marijuana I was ostracized. 

I hate to presume anything but medical marijuana has greatly improved my quality of life and if you ever have any questions feel free to PM me 

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Posted (edited)

The ordinary world of aches and pains, stress, loss, suffering... is a creation of the Demiurge and his archonic minions to drown you in reality tunnels of ignorance and misinformation. We are in the middle of a potent mind-bomb that is erasing our ability to access our divine spark. The goal should be to remember what you are. To realize your where your true origin lies.

Edited by TruthSeeker_
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there really are so many ways to look at this, especially not knowing what one considers suffering... Event, desire for something or to lack something. To feel captive, lost or less than...

Suffering is a mental construct regardless of what you are going through, evident in the true psychopath.

You have to answer the question, why do you suffer? At least to yourself. Figure it out and then "fix" it. Perhaps its chronic pain, physical condition. Perhaps a decision that says " yes i hurt, but i am going to achieve whatever in spite" can break the condition... You will still hurt, but quality of life can be improved. 

The reality of suffering is in our perception. A man sitting by a smooth lake watching the sunset completely at ease mentally and physically by all outside appearances, can internally be wrecked with all sorts of torturous conditions-guilt, desire, shame or pain. But in reality, hes just a man sitting by a lake. Were he to embrace that reality, he could be freed of suffering. ..

Hope that made sense?? Wish you well!

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Thank you.  I am suffering because life isn't what I wish.  But I completely understand that I can only change what I have the ability to, and what everyone else does is beyond my control.  I don't think this is common to me, I'm sure it's everyone.  I just seem to have a high dose right now.  But the topic in general.....you know, people ask...."if God is good why is there suffering?'

So, that's really more the question for me....it's about trying to understand God and why it would be right to make an existence where people suffer.  

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1 hour ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

The ordinary world of aches and pains, stress, loss, suffering... is a creation of the Demiurge and his archonic minions to drown you in reality tunnels of ignorance and misinformation. We are in the middle of a potent mind-bomb that is erasing our ability to access our divine spark. The goal should be to remember what you are. To realize your where your true origin lies.

How does one access the divine spark?

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When I read the title I mentally used Yoda's voice. 

Ease suffering by being creative. Being creative is anything you want it to be.

 

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Guyver said:

How does one access the divine spark?

By allowing yourself to be willing to do his will.

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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On 06/10/2017 at 1:50 PM, Guyver said:

Hello.  So, anyway.....I'm suffering.  So there's that.  

But, regarding the topic....as a believer my biggest struggle right now is with the concept that God is good, inspite of the fact that life really is suffering.  I mean isn't it?

Now, having said that.....I really haven't done full diligence to the topic.  And that is my way.  I do think about things, specifically the nature of things.  For, if one really contemplates the nature of things, the base, the core....that's where understanding comes from.  So, having not given a full effort to the topic myself....I display some level of intellectual or spiritual laziness, and I admit that part.  Anyway....

So, on the topic.   My question is; what is your understanding of suffering?

Suffering is the abilty to be self aware or self conscious, of pain, loss death loneliness etc. including not just present but future impending or inevitable loss and suffering. 

 it is a state of mind, not a physical effect, and is  only available to a self  aware being.  Without self awareness we may feel pain. but we will not suffer. because this is a mental state like fear or anxiety or worry   In my belief and experience suffering is something we learn, along with fear.   One can choose not to suffer,  despite what ever pain loss or    difficulty we face..  

this goes to my understanding of the human connection with god, God has an abilty to alter a person's mind, through faith or through the spirit,  so that whatever they are experiencing they are not suffering 

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3 hours ago, Guyver said:

Thank you.  I am suffering because life isn't what I wish.  But I completely understand that I can only change what I have the ability to, and what everyone else does is beyond my control.  I don't think this is common to me, I'm sure it's everyone.  I just seem to have a high dose right now.  But the topic in general.....you know, people ask...."if God is good why is there suffering?'

So, that's really more the question for me....it's about trying to understand God and why it would be right to make an existence where people suffer.  

Summed up nicely- suffering is want for that you do not have to the point it causes you pain.

Who knows what god wants? Doubt he suffers...

Setting small goals towards the life you want and achieving them will go a long way towards peace with the issue.

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2 hours ago, Will Due said:

By allowing yourself to be willing to do his will.

Yep, it's all about putting your faith and trust in the Lord.

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5 hours ago, Guyver said:

 people ask...."if God is good why is there suffering?'

So, that's really more the question for me....it's about trying to understand God and why it would be right to make an existence where people suffer.  

From my vantage point of old age (I'm 64), I'm able to look back at life and think..."There is suffering in the world, but God is good." 

It's a misconception for us to expect God to make our lives a smooth path. "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly." (John 10:10.) They exist side-by-side; It's not an either/or proposition.

Our trust in God doesn't end the suffering, but it does guarantee that suffering doesn't have the last word.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 In my belief and experience suffering is something we learn, along with fear.   One can choose not to suffer,  despite what ever pain loss or    difficulty we face.. 

The just shows me how limited your experience is and that you speak about subjects you simply don't understand.

I'm not going to go through this again with you but I do wish you would stop spouting this dangerous nonsense at people.

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