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Suffering?


Guyver

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4 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Yeah well just hope that the judge and or the prosecutor aren't members here as everything you have said shows intent and if you have been telling everyone else that you are as exceptional as you are will running through the rain without getting wet, martial artist Kata expert, incredible athlete, bullet proof and arrows just bounce off your skin I'm sure that they will believe that using a rifle is a reasonable choice.:whistle: just make sure that you don't knock that radio that's plugged in into that puddle that your standing in.:w00t:

jmccr8

Yup but it wont happen now  as we live in different situations Like i said i am totally honest on UM

And yes, electricity is a good form of home defence.    

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6 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Oh yeah I get it after everything he had was taken away including his wife and children and live a with torment his reward was to die so he could be with them yeah that sounds fantastic. Why are you still trying to justify a fairly tale to me when neither one of us ascribes to this doctrine?

jmccr8

That is because you don't truly  believe it can happen, which colors your interpretation of the whole story You have to look at it through the mind of a person to whom this is real 

It is about the POINT of the story and moral i dont believe in the brer fox/rabbit  stories either, but i understand their intent and purpose as teaching stories .

You cant just go around criticising the morality of a story when you don't have a clue about how it was written and read   at the time    Its not about what you or i believe.  it is what the writer and original readers believed, and thus what they took from the story.

And no, his reward (in the narrative) was not death, but riches, power and prestige,  in this life, and many more decades of life, PLUS an immortal life after death with ALL of his family    

Edited by Mr Walker
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3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Yup but it wont happen now  as we live in different situations Like i said i am totally honest on UM

And yes, electricity is a good form of home defence.    

Yeah sure okay I won't tell them in court that you said here that you would tell a couple of little white lies about how that guy died .

jmccr8

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1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

That is because you don't truly  believe it can happen, which colors your interpretation of the whole story You have to look at it through the mind of a person to whom this is real 

It is about the POINT of the story and moral i dont believe in the brer fox/rabbit  stories either, but i understand their intent and purpose as teaching stories .

You cant just go around criticising the morality of a story when you don't have a clue about how it was written and read   at the time    Its not about what you or i believe.  it is what the writer and original readers believed, and thus what they took from the story.

And no, his reward was not death but riches power and prestige  in this life, and many more decades of life, PLUS an immortal life after death with ALL of his family    

Okay the moral of the story is if you let me mess with your life I will give you all your heart's desire and more plus eternal life after you die. Ah doesn't anyone who believes in him get eternal life and reunited with their loved ones anyway? What kind of bonus is that anyway kinda sounds like selling icecubes to Eskimos to me.

jmccr8

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It is staggering to me, how purely and completely some folks are able to saturate in their illusory assumptions, projections and interpretations of reality and embody Naive Realism.

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19 hours ago, Aquila King said:

I'll be responding within your Quote IN BOLD, cause it takes too much time and effort to quote everything separately. Don't like it? Deal with it.

 

I think you bring in an excellent point, that there is submissive trust, no give and take, only one way or the highway, a door mat if you will as implied in the book of Job and earned trust the aspect of us that is based on innate goodness and would not sacrifice a loved one for any reason.

 

For me, a submissive trust is based in fear, and earned trust is based in love. If one wants my trust they will have to earn it by showing me in word and deed, consistently the innate goodness they are for whatever it takes, I think I should do the same, a persons trust is the greatest gift one to be cherished above all else. 

What would have made a wonderful story is if Job would have fought for good, his family and called god out to a better standard of behavior or wouldn't have given merit to the ideas of such a horrible deity. 

Job did not have boundaries, and was ruled by fear, and cashed out for new kids and a wife, he was a victim of fear, not an example. IMHO

 

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16 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

PLUS an immortal life after death

I thought the point of being immortal was not to die? Just how does that work, can you die again after your dead unless you are immortal?:rolleyes::whistle:

jmccr8

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“Around us, life bursts with miracles – a glass of water, a ray of sunshine, a leaf, a caterpillar, a flower, laughter, raindrops. If you live in awareness, it is easy to see miracles everywhere. Each human being is a multiplicity of miracles. Eyes that see thousands of colors, shapes, and forms; ears that hear a bee flying or a thunderclap; a brain that ponders a speck of dust as easily as the entire cosmos; a heart that beats in rhythm with the heartbeat of all beings. When we are tired and feel discouraged by life’s daily struggles, we may not notice these miracles, but they are always there."  ~ Thich Nhat Hanh

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2 hours ago, quiXilver said:

“Around us, life bursts with miracles – a glass of water, a ray of sunshine, a leaf, a caterpillar, a flower, laughter, raindrops. If you live in awareness, it is easy to see miracles everywhere. Each human being is a multiplicity of miracles. Eyes that see thousands of colors, shapes, and forms; ears that hear a bee flying or a thunderclap; a brain that ponders a speck of dust as easily as the entire cosmos; a heart that beats in rhythm with the heartbeat of all beings. When we are tired and feel discouraged by life’s daily struggles, we may not notice these miracles, but they are always there."  ~ Thich Nhat Hanh

Beautiful quix, namaste my friend.

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On 29/10/2017 at 1:22 PM, jmccr8 said:

Okay the moral of the story is if you let me mess with your life I will give you all your heart's desire and more plus eternal life after you die. Ah doesn't anyone who believes in him get eternal life and reunited with their loved ones anyway? What kind of bonus is that anyway kinda sounds like selling icecubes to Eskimos to me.

jmccr8

How can you get something you refuse to believe exists? :) Yes all who believe get eternal life according to the theology My point to you was that, given such a belief,  job did not lose his first lot of children   However job also gained twice the normal life span, twice the wealth and twice the power and prestige in his community which he had before all this happened to him. He was proven a loyal servant of god, and those who believed he must have done some evil to incur gods wrath were shown to be wrong   

The moral of the story was first that satan lied to the people with god, about Job's reasons for loving god and being loyal to him 

A secondary moral was the things learned by job and his friends

  The third was that god has a total power over the reader's lives,and can take away, or give, BUT if you remain faithful, in the end all will be restored 

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11 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I think you bring in an excellent point, that there is submissive trust, no give and take, only one way or the highway, a door mat if you will as implied in the book of Job and earned trust the aspect of us that is based on innate goodness and would not sacrifice a loved one for any reason.

 

For me, a submissive trust is based in fear, and earned trust is based in love. If one wants my trust they will have to earn it by showing me in word and deed, consistently the innate goodness they are for whatever it takes, I think I should do the same, a persons trust is the greatest gift one to be cherished above all else. 

What would have made a wonderful story is if Job would have fought for good, his family and called god out to a better standard of behavior or wouldn't have given merit to the ideas of such a horrible deity. 

Job did not have boundaries, and was ruled by fear, and cashed out for new kids and a wife, he was a victim of fear, not an example. IMHO

 

You realy have NO idea about the belief context of people from that time, or their relationship with the god they believed in 

.Only a modern person who really didn't believe in the power  authority and influence of god in their life could make suggestions like this

Job couldn't understand why god was treating him so harshly but, unlike all his family and friends he knew two things

First that he had done nothing wrong

And second that what god had given he had the power and authority to take away

To these people, EVERYTHING, from life, to your children, to your possessions are gifts from god, nothing you innately earn or deserve God gives and god takes away, as in such peoples minds he has the right to do

Of course, as a modern californian girl, you see it differently But he story wasn't written for or about you.To understand it you must see it through the eyes of the writer or of job.    

Job remained loyal and faithful to god even as he questioned gods treatment of him  yet you, who did not suffer his ordeals, make suggestions about how he could have better negotiated with hos god  

Job was never a victim. He was a winner,  as is shown in the last  part of the book 

Given the power of such a god,  in a narrative like this, humans have no choice but to be in a submissive relationship with it, as a child is to a parent, but his does not preclude the relationship being based on love, and indeed the bible tells us that we should obey god, not from fear, but out of love, just as a child should obey a parent not from fear but from love and respect. 

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11 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

I thought the point of being immortal was not to die? Just how does that work, can you die again after your dead unless you are immortal?:rolleyes::whistle:

jmccr8

 All humans die.

In the bible this is also true except for a few who are alive in the end times  Biblically, when you die you are sleeping and unaware. Then as if no time had passed,  you are awoken on the judgement days.

In the first judgment day the saved are awakened They go to heaven for a short time but eventually are placed back on an edenic new earth and live without death pain or suffering for ever.

The condemned are  raised  a bit later and are almost immediately thrown into a lake of fire, where they die.  Both their body and their consciousness is the consumed  and ceases to exists

  The catholics didn't think this scary enough and so added the "extra- biblical"  punishment of purgatory and hell and told people you went there when you died  (or went to heaven when you died)

  In the original greek and hebrew words of the bible this was not true. Your body went to the grave or was burned while your consciousness went to sleep  to be  awoken later 

The bible actually uses the words  "This is the second death, Of body and soul"  to describe what happens to the condemned, after their judgement  The saved gain immortality as human beings on a restored earth. 

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