Suffering?

[D.O'N]

10 hours ago, Guyver said:

Thank you.  I am suffering because life isn't what I wish.  But I completely understand that I can only change what I have the ability to, and what everyone else does is beyond my control.  I don't think this is common to me, I'm sure it's everyone.  I just seem to have a high dose right now.  But the topic in general.....you know, people ask...."if God is good why is there suffering?'

So, that's really more the question for me....it's about trying to understand God and why it would be right to make an existence where people suffer.  

Just remember you are not alone, no matter what those "voices" tell you. We all need help at times to guide us through this adventure we call life.

[Only_]

11 hours ago, Guyver said:

How does one access the divine spark?

Self-knowledge.

[Tatetopa]

9 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Suffering is the abilty to be self aware or self conscious, of pain, loss death loneliness etc. including not just present but future impending or inevitable loss and suffering. 

Greetings.  Good topic.  I do not deny pain and grief exists, I have experienced it.  I have also suffered, so being another oldster I have developed my own thesis about suffering and how to deal with it.  Suffering can be caused by events, or by a condition you have or a condition you don't have.  It doesn't address your opening post very well but to keep this post from dragging on, events as a cause of suffering is enough to mention.

I think suffering is even more than being self aware, it is induced by taking things personally and feeling a sense of injustice.  Why did that happen to me? I don't deserve it!  Its no fair!  

If you have constructed a universe of infinite justice; a supreme being holding the scales and meting out rewards and punishments based on every personal action and thought; occasionally you are bound to disagree with the judge's verdict.    And you may doubt the fairness or goodness of the judge.   Sometimes just as detrimental to character is the smugness that develops thinking all good things that happen to you are deserved.

If the universe was set spinning and we operate with the knowledge of a few rules and freedom of choice, then occasionally we come to grief.  We might make the wrong decision, a wrong action, which we can learn from.  Or, we might be beset by a debilitating condition as some of our colleges are experiencing through no fault of our own.  It is not personal or unjust (implied judgement from a supreme judge), it is the way space, time, and matter are progressing.   This universe concept does not endorse or preclude the existence of a being that loves you or wishes you the best.   

When I destroyed my knee, it hurt a lot, I suffered.  I felt stupid about my action, but I did not believe it was a judgement placed upon me for being a bad person.  Not thinking that I am worthless or despised by said universe helps me get through things, it may be of no use to you.  Best wishes to all of us who have joy and suffering.

[quiXilver]

where is light?

 

is it in the bulb?

in the space?  the ether?

 

where is the music?

in the ear? 

in the instrument.. or the musician's breath and fingers?

 

where is suffering?

and, (because I'm obsessing on it again, as if the very question was trying to remind me of something I've forgotten)... 

what is the speed of dark?

[GoldenWolf]

3 hours ago, quiXilver said:

what is the speed of dark?

Darkness is the absence of light.

 

The speed of light:

299 792 458 m / s

[GlitterRose]

On 10/6/2017 at 10:07 AM, Will Due said:

Paying taxes is suffering. 

 

 

It's just so boring. Oh my goodness. I could never be an accountant. 

I hate that more than most do, I think. And it's not even about the money. 

[Guyver]

On 10/6/2017 at 10:07 AM, Will Due said:

Paying taxes is suffering. 

 

 

Yes.  That's why I pay someone to do it now.  It's the best purchase I've ever made.....or at least in the top 5.  

[I'mConvinced]

10 hours ago, Mystic Crusader said:

Darkness is the absence of light.

 

The speed of light:

299 792 458 m / s

 

[quiXilver]

the speed of light is not measured as a constant.

it varies with measurements

13 hours ago, Mystic Crusader said:

Darkness is the absence of light.

 

The speed of light:

299 792 458 m / s

and this is something of a trick question

for aside from its speed, the next question for me is always...

is it actually dark?  or is that my assumption, based on my perception?

 

what is dark?

[Grandpa Greenman]

Dark is the absence of visible light.  Here on earth it means we are in the shadow from the sun's visible rays. 

Dark in philosophical reference means, either ignorance of knowledge or it means someone/something of malevolent intent.  Darkness is all about perception. If one came across my friends and I circling in the woods after dark, you might perceive we must be up to no good, because of a preconceived Hollywood idea of witches.   We, on the other hand, would be thinking you are in the dark because of your ignorance of our path, so we would off you cookies to enlighten you.  

 

Edited October 8, 2017 by Grandpa Greenman

[Wes4747]

3 hours ago, Grandpa Greenman said:

so we would off you cookies to enlighten you.  

 

.....who's Cookies? And how does offing Cookies enlighten 'em? Haha

J/k if you come across me outside in the woods, i would love to stay for the ceremonies!!

[quiXilver]

I used to be certain that darkness was the absence of light.

 

Now, it's more akin to an area that lies beyond my senses ability to perceive light.

Dark matter is what... roughly 95% of the mass of the universe?  This is an indicator that there is plenty in what humans assume to be dark that is far more than... empty lack of light.

 

but of course, this just me and my odd mind emptiness dancing. 

[GoldenWolf]

7 hours ago, quiXilver said:

the speed of light is not measured as a constant.

it varies with measurements

and this is something of a trick question

for aside from its speed, the next question for me is always...

is it actually dark?  or is that my assumption, based on my perception?

 

what is dark?

The speed of darkness will always be equivalent to the speed of light.  Light has matter.

[quiXilver]

well... that which we cannot perceive is roughly 95% of the rest of the mass aside from light that we can perceive.

dark no longer seems like it's an absence of light, more like how we our cognitive process interprets that which is beyond its ken.

 

Edited October 8, 2017 by quiXilver
alter wording for clarity

[Grandpa Greenman]

23 minutes ago, Wes4747 said:

.....who's Cookies? And how does offing Cookies enlighten 'em? Haha

J/k if you come across me outside in the woods, i would love to stay for the ceremonies!!

We would have to sit down have a chat over cookies and mead, not all ceremonies are open.  

[GoldenWolf]

8 minutes ago, quiXilver said:

and that which we cannot perceive is roughly 95% of the rest of the mass aside from light that we can't perceive.

dark no longer seems like it's an absence of light, more like how we our cognitive process interprets that which is beyond its ken.

 

Are you discussing from a scientific or spiritual questioning process?

[+Sherapy]

On 10/7/2017 at 1:19 AM, Mr Walker said:

Suffering is the abilty to be self aware or self conscious, of pain, loss death loneliness etc. including not just present but future impending or inevitable loss and suffering. 

 it is a state of mind, not a physical effect, and is  only available to a self  aware being.  Without self awareness we may feel pain. but we will not suffer. because this is a mental state like fear or anxiety or worry   In my belief and experience suffering is something we learn, along with fear.   One can choose not to suffer,  despite what ever pain loss or    difficulty we face..  

this goes to my understanding of the human connection with god, God has an abilty to alter a person's mind, through faith or through the spirit,  so that whatever they are experiencing they are not suffering 

I don't think one can be self aware or mature or wise or compassionate if they have never suffered or have been challenged or faced hardship, disappointment or pain of any kind. Empathy means you have been there too and we don't tell someone that something doesn't suck when it does, and we don't judge them as less capable because they are suffering. If one is living their life it does include the experience of dealing with bad events at times, when you are self aware we do embrace our emotions, not repress or deny them especially the times life does suck. 

For example,  Prayer, meditation, exercise, mindfulness, a strong support system, taking time to self care, humor, doing things that you think are fun that nurture your soul. etc etc. 

They may or may not include god, regardless, these things are open to anyone. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Sherapy

[internetperson]

On 10/6/2017 at 2:22 AM, Kenemet said:

The Buddhist model of suffering doesn't provide any remedy for something like suffering frequent broken bones because you were born with osteogenesis imperfecta... or something like cystic fibrosis.

I think you need to suffer from these diseases before you say the Buddhist model can't help these folks. I won't speak for Buddhists but I can say that with meditation the perspective changes. So if you have a horrendous medical condition and you practice meditation (which is a blanket term unfortunately) your 'horrendous medical condition' completely changes into just a regular tuesday and you actually feel like a regular human. I know this sounds emotive but I honestly probably have more experience with this than most folks you'll encounter. PM me if your interested. I'm not shy about my issues I just don't want you crazy cyber stalkers tracking me down.

As to the OP, not everyone suffers the same. If everyone felt the same level of depression then suicide wouldn't exist. Some feel it worse than others. If you're in a horrendously seriously deep level of depression then you may need to see a psychiatrist, other than that meditation IMO is the answer. Thing is meditation is just like exercising but soooo much harder. Think about it: you can work your upper body one day and lower the other. Cardio is on the other days. Keep that up along with a legit diet and in a few months you'll see the results. Unfortunately most people yo-yo (meaning lose the weight just to regain it). Meditation IMO is exactly 100% the same way. The problem is you don't physically see the results so it's easy to call bs.

That being said if you do stick to it it honestly doesn't take much time to recognize the results. Like things that used to instantly make you fly off the handle you couldn't care less about, to the point of actually making you laugh when they happen. You run into instances where you think "I should be really p***ed off right now" but you just feel calm and normal.

If anyone wants to PM me feel free.

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by internetperson

[+Sherapy]

44 minutes ago, internetperson said:

I think you need to suffer from these diseases before you say the Buddhist model can't help these folks. I won't speak for Buddhists but I can say that with meditation the perspective changes. So if you have a horrendous medical condition and you practice meditation (which is a blanket term unfortunately) your 'horrendous medical condition' completely changes into just a regular tuesday and you actually feel like a regular human. I know this sounds emotive but I honestly probably have more experience with this than most folks you'll encounter. PM me if your interested. I'm not shy about my issues I just don't want you crazy cyber stalkers tracking me down.

As to the OP, not everyone suffers the same. If everyone felt the same level of depression then suicide wouldn't exist. Some feel it worse than others. If you're in a horrendously seriously deep level of depression then you may need to see a psychiatrist, other than that meditation IMO is the answer. Thing is meditation is just like exercising but soooo much harder. Think about it: you can work your upper body one day and lower the other. Cardio is on the other days. Keep that up along with a legit diet and in a few months you'll see the results. Unfortunately most people yo-yo (meaning lose the weight just to regain it). Meditation IMO is exactly 100% the same way. The problem is you don't physically see the results so it's easy to call bs.

That being said if you do stick to it it honestly doesn't take much time to recognize the results. Like things that used to instantly make you fly off the handle you couldn't care less about, to the point of actually making you laugh when they happen. You run into instances where you think "I should be really p***ed off right now" but you just feel calm and normal.

If anyone wants to PM me feel free.

 

Indeed great point, not everyone suffers the same. 

I feel things intensely, which is great for compassion and empathy, but not so great for pain, negativity etc. 

So I have strong personal boundaries, but it doesn’t mean everyone else has to or everyone is me and needs my advice. 

For me meditation is paying better attention for ways to make my day to day its best and there are times this ain’t saying much. 

For me, meditation is a kind of self therapy, where I cultivate the habit of observing, of actually listening, of being as present as I can be given the moment without attachment to results or outcomes. 

Every moment is different, every experience is different I can’t even tell anyone what it means to meditate ( defeats the purpose) all I can say is give it a try or not see where it leads you, or not. 

And good god if I am dogmatizing have the good sense not to listen to me. 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Sherapy

[WoIverine]

Hey Guyver, since you mentioned you're a believer, it might help to take a look at where the origins of the sin / suffering began. It didn't start with God. These verses can help:

Ezekiel 28:13-16

"You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: carnelian, chrysolite and emerald, topaz, onyx and jasper, lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones."

[Guyver]

2 hours ago, WoIverine said:

Hey Guyver, since you mentioned you're a believer, it might help to take a look at where the origins of the sin / suffering began. It didn't start with God. These verses can help:

Ezekiel 28:13-16

"You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: carnelian, chrysolite and emerald, topaz, onyx and jasper, lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones."

Thanks, I'm sure this is well intended.  I should clarify.....I'm a believer in God, but not necessarily the bible.  I do find it a bit odd that people consistently make that association.  I have so many hours of study on the bible that my opinions about it have changed.  

In short, I do not accept the devil as the cause of suffering in the world.  

[Mr Walker]

On 08/10/2017 at 0:26 AM, I'mConvinced said:

The just shows me how limited your experience is and that you speak about subjects you simply don't understand.

I'm not going to go through this again with you but I do wish you would stop spouting this dangerous nonsense at people.

It is scientific fact..

suffering is a constructed concpet It is a psychological condition   If you  wish to remain ignorant i can't prevent that, but i can post truths. PAIN, be it physical or emotional, is not suffering, until you become self aware of the pain, its cause, its meaning, its possible consequences etc. If  you  are not aware of the nature and permanency of death, or its inevitable approach, you cannot suffer from the fear of death for example.   And we now know that pain itself, is constructed in,the brain stem  and is not a physical thing as much as a neurological construct   This  knowledge s now used in the pain centres, attached to most modern hospitals in the west, to improve the treatment of pain . You can chose not to fear and thus not to suffer the effects of fear . You can even learn to look at pain as a sign of life  and your body's ongoing struggle for existence You do not have to SUFFER from pain when you feel its presence.

You can lose every material possession  in your life and not suffer at all from that loss but be filled with joy, peace, and hope, even a sense of emancipation.

It is dangerous nonsense o believe that suffering is an inevitable part of the human condition, just as it is to believe that; fear, anger, hatred, etc are natural  and inevitable conditions of our existence .   

[jmccr8]

On 10/9/2017 at 8:17 PM, Mr Walker said:

It is scientific fact..

suffering is a constructed concpet It is a psychological condition   If you  wish to remain ignorant i can't prevent that, but i can post truths. PAIN, be it physical or emotional, is not suffering, until you become self aware of the pain, its cause, its meaning, its possible consequences etc. If  you  are not aware of the nature and permanency of death, or its inevitable approach, you cannot suffer from the fear of death for example.   And we now know that pain itself, is constructed in,the brain stem  and is not a physical thing as much as a neurological construct   This  knowledge s now used in the pain centres, attached to most modern hospitals in the west, to improve the treatment of pain . You can chose not to fear and thus not to suffer the effects of fear . You can even learn to look at pain as a sign of life  and your body's ongoing struggle for existence You do not have to SUFFER from pain when you feel its presence.

You can lose every material possession  in your life and not suffer at all from that loss but be filled with joy, peace, and hope, even a sense of emancipation.

It is dangerous nonsense o believe that suffering is an inevitable part of the human condition, just as it is to believe that; fear, anger, hatred, etc are natural  and inevitable conditions of our existence .   

Some peoples words are a form of suffering and a common cure for such ailments is 13 grams of lead with 4.2 grains of black powder.and, of course, that should be all in one's head

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

3 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Some peoples words are a form of suffering and a common cure for such ailments is 13 grams of lead with 4.2 grains of black powder.and, of course, that should be all in one's head

jmccr8

Are you going to excuse this as meaning to be humorous?

  If a person's words cause you to suffer, all you have to do is alter your mental perspective, so  that you find them non threatening  or even humorous.

  In reality no one can cause another to suffer by the use of words unless the victim choose to be hurt, or offended, or  suffer . This was one of the very earliest life lessons drummed into me by my parents, who helped me understand that I am responsible for how i choose to respond to any words or provocation from another. Not them.

Worlds used to defame or slander, are a bit different, and can cause material harm, thus needing to be addressed.   

[jmccr8]

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Are you going to excuse this as meaning to be humorous?

  If a person's words cause you to suffer, all you have to do is alter your mental perspective, so  that you find them non threatening  or even humorous.

  In reality no one can cause another to suffer by the use of words unless the victim choose to be hurt, or offended, or  suffer . This was one of the very earliest life lessons drummed into me by my parents, who helped me understand that I am responsible for how i choose to respond to any words or provocation from another. Not them.

Worlds used to defame or slander, are a bit different, and can cause material harm, thus needing to be addressed.   

You are such a starched shirt does humor just buzz by you all the time? Although it would seem by your response words do affect you.

jmccr8