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lost_shaman

Right to an education without indoctrination.

187 posts in this topic

2 minutes ago, Kismit said:

Most likely.

So by your standard here it might then be fine and a matter of free speech for teachers to promote the NAZI party platform to children in Public schools?

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7 minutes ago, Kismit said:

Then this again is not a political issues.  It's a curriculum issue. Whone ever is responsible for setting curriculum needs to makeep critical thinking compulsory.

The curriculum isn't the problem. It's the teachers interjecting their personal opinions on the subject that is the problem.

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3 minutes ago, Michelle said:

The curriculum isn't the problem. It's the teachers interjecting their personal opinions on the subject that is the problem.

But if critical thinking was taught, it would not matter what the teachers opinion was.

Teach children to think, and they won't blindly follow.

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6 minutes ago, Michelle said:

The curriculum isn't the problem. It's the teachers interjecting their personal opinions on the subject that is the problem.

It seems our friends from New Zealand and England don't really want to acknowledge the issue we are discussing. 

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14 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

So by your standard here it might then be fine and a matter of free speech for teachers to promote the NAZI party platform to children in Public schools?

Is teaching a leftist agenda part of the curriculum? 

If not, then if a Teacher expressed Nazi sentiment as their own personal choice then they have a right to state that  belief according to the American constitution. It could of course be brought before the board, but I doubt a Teacher could be legally dismissed because of that.

 

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3 minutes ago, Kismit said:

But if critical thinking was taught, it would not matter what the teachers opinion was.

Teach children to think, and they won't blindly follow.

That's all well and good but it is not what is actually happening here in the United States! So we are talking about the actual indoctrination that is actually taking place in our Schools now. 

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3 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

It seems our friends from New Zealand and England don't really want to acknowledge the issue we are discussing. 

It seems you might really be searching for confirmation of your already indelible beliefs. 

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1 minute ago, lost_shaman said:

That's all well and good but it is not what is actually happening here in the United States! So we are talking about the actual indoctrination that is actually taking place in our Schools now. 

I consider myself a left leaning individual. This is because I believe all people deserve to be respected and have equal and fair access to opportunities,  health, housing and education. 

Does it make me a bad person because I believe these things? Am I awful for expressing this where people might read it?

Am I indoctrinating?

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3 minutes ago, Kismit said:

But if critical thinking was taught, it would not matter what the teachers opinion was.

Teach children to think, and they won't blindly follow.

I wouldn't even begin to know how to teach that. It's like trying to teach someone common sense. It's not going to sink in.  Experience seems to be the best teacher.

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5 minutes ago, Michelle said:

I wouldn't even begin to know how to teach that. It's like trying to teach someone common sense. It's not going to sink in.  Experience seems to be the best teacher.

It is teachable, it starts with teaching children about source bias. Then teaching them to ask, why is this person telling me this? What does the conveyer of the message have to gain? Am I being sold something? 

Add this to comprehension skills, real comprehension skills, where subtext and reading between the lines and evaluating information effectively is taught.

 And you have yourself a thinker.

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1 minute ago, Kismit said:

I consider myself a left leaning individual. This is because I believe all people deserve to be respected and have equal and fair access to opportunities,  health, housing and education. 

Does it make me a bad person because I believe these things? Am I awful for expressing this where people might read it?

Am I indoctrinating?

Ding Ding!!! There it is! 

Have I said anyone was BAD? No. I asked if children have a right to an education without an indoctrination? Must have violated someone's safe space! 

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Just now, lost_shaman said:

Ding Ding!!! There it is! 

Have I said anyone was BAD? No. I asked if children have a right to an education without an indoctrination? Must have violated someone's safe space! 

Don't even bother with your "ding ding" when I am the one with my finger on the buzzer.

Remember that little blue word under my title, it actually entitles me to respect. In the same way I  post respectfully towards you. 

 It's a discussion board not a Slam match. And I am here to make sure it stays that way. Only a fool would disrespectfully post towards a Moderator.

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22 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

And I was wrong, so I should say “I was wrong to say what I did”, I tried to pander to my ego by avoiding the “w” word.

Well, since nobody else will say it ...  Kudos to you for saying so.  :salute:

 

 

And yes, it used to be that Teachers kept political OPINIONS out of the classroom. We are having this thread and this trouble because it is no longer the case. If it weren't for those tiny cameras, it would be totally out of control by now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But, don't be thinking that this is all there is here.

There are MANY who know there is a better way. Like they said, you have to watch this one to the end.

 

 

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12 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

Well, since nobody else will say it ...  Kudos to you for saying so.  :salute:

 

 

And yes, it used to be that Teachers kept political OPINIONS out of the classroom. We are having this thread and this trouble because it is no longer the case. If it weren't for those tiny cameras, it would be totally out of control by now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But, don't be thinking that this is all there is here.

There are MANY who know there is a better way. Like they said, you have to watch this one to the end.

 

 

I absolutely agree this is wrong.

12 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

Also please inform yourself. This is a fact in the U.S. not a belief.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/6/liberal-professors-outnumber-conservatives-12-1/

I have been involved in the topic before when we discussed Berkley. I am aware it is a real problem. I am not disagreeing with the fact that children should not be indoctrinated in any way shape or form.

You may want to go back and actually read my posts with out your prejudgment bias.

My first point was that the topic would naturally diverge towards how politics should be taught. A point of view you seem to not care for. My second point was that critical thinking should be compulsory. Do you have issue with that? My third point was to ask you if you thought my post was indoctrination at which point you childishly attacked me by repeating Joe Rogan bumper sticker slogans.

Perhaps you should take a moment to ask yourself why you feel you need to attack other posters who do not absolutely agree with you or offer even slightly different options.

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7 minutes ago, Kismit said:

My first point was that the topic would naturally diverge towards how politics should be taught.

Ok, I probably ignored your point here because the thread is not actually going in that direction. Moving on...

9 minutes ago, Kismit said:

My second point was that critical thinking should be compulsory.

I totally agree and critical thinking was taught in school here and I'm sure it still is today i just is not what we are trying to talk about in this thread. i.e. indoctrination is not critical thinking.

 

13 minutes ago, Kismit said:

My third point was to ask you if you thought my post was indoctrination at which point you childishly attacked me by repeating John Rogan bumper sticker slogans.

From my point of view you simply framed yourself as a victim; as if I have to pander to your whims after such a stunt. 

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7 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

No one failed to comprehend anything you wrote! 

 

Oh. Well you really got me there.  Guess you must be too Smart to make typo's ever huh?

 

We actually used to have Government classes in the U.S. and that is NOT at all what this thread is about! Talk about "reading comprehension"! And "not reading" the thread! 

Go on then. If you're so convinced you've understood it (despite all evidence to the contrary), please summarise my position and how it shows I want to indoctrinate children. 

It may not be what YOU started by talking about but it is a natural progression of the discussion. As the OP you get to start the conversation but you don't get to dictate it's direction. As long as the moderators deem it on topic. 

7 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

Do you want to clarify the above since you are claiming people have "reading comprehension" issues?  Who are these "ill informed" Adults Setton? 

Seriously? You aren't aware that so many adults have simply no critical thinking skills and vote blindly based either on the party or believe the first thing that comes out of a candidate's mouth?

Maybe I'm speaking to one of them. 

6 hours ago, Michelle said:

Teachers in public schools have not been allowed to answer questions about how the theory of evolution contradicts the Bible for years. They are not to reveal how they personally feel about it either way. This shouldn't be any different.

Then that's an issue. Teachers should be able to teach children how to think. Not what to think but how. Then children would be able to weigh up the evidence for themselves, according to their own values, and come to their own conclusions. 

Here in the UK for example, a teacher shouldn't express their own political views but can and should help children keep informed about politics and the political system. And if they have questions, you discuss them. That's what being a teacher is. Although we also need to teach critical thinking more widely and better. 

1 hour ago, lost_shaman said:

That's all well and good but it is not what is actually happening here in the United States! So we are talking about the actual indoctrination that is actually taking place in our Schools now. 

Again, that may be what you personally are talking about. It wasn't what Panther and I were discussing when you joined in. You're welcome to, of course, but please do at least ensure you have understood the posts up to that point. As i always say to my classes, if you don't understand something, ask. The only way you'll look silly is if you don't ask. 

1 hour ago, Michelle said:

I wouldn't even begin to know how to teach that. It's like trying to teach someone common sense. It's not going to sink in.  Experience seems to be the best teacher.

Maybe you wouldn't but that's why teachers have to train and qualify; so they DO know how to teach their subject. It's actually quite straightforward to teach critical thinking. 

1 hour ago, lost_shaman said:

Also please inform yourself. This is a fact in the U.S. not a belief.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/6/liberal-professors-outnumber-conservatives-12-1/

Seeing as you seem convinced there's some grand conspiracy among teachers and you don't want to discuss alternative solutions, here's a solution that might suit you. 

Get 'rightist' people to educate themselves, qualify as teachers, get jobs and balance out the left leaning ones. In fact, go do it yourself and stop whining at everyone else. 

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Good Grief. This is really such a simple concept...teachers should keep their personal religious/political/social views to themselves. At higher levels (Senior year of High School and College) these subjects can be studied in a rational neutral manner where all sides of the debate are presented.

No educator should be 'going after' or advocating for any politicians or political party in their classroom. No religion should be being slammed or advocated for in their classroom. Hot button issues on politics, religion, sexuality should not even be discussed with children. Children simply do not have the emotional or rational maturity to deal with these types of issues. IMO exposing children to subjects they are incapable of comprehending and emotionally dealing with is down right wrong.

BTW, the 'offenders' in this area come from all sides of the spectrum (right left middle). Oh, and teachers are required to have Masters Degrees, they are indeed educated and as such should know better than to engage in such behaviors to begin with.

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9 hours ago, Lilly said:

Good Grief. This is really such a simple concept...teachers should keep their personal religious/political/social views to themselves. At higher levels (Senior year of High School and College) these subjects can be studied in a rational neutral manner where all sides of the debate are presented.

No educator should be 'going after' or advocating for any politicians or political party in their classroom. No religion should be being slammed or advocated for in their classroom. Hot button issues on politics, religion, sexuality should not even be discussed with children. Children simply do not have the emotional or rational maturity to deal with these types of issues. IMO exposing children to subjects they are incapable of comprehending and emotionally dealing with is down right wrong.

BTW, the 'offenders' in this area come from all sides of the spectrum (right left middle). Oh, and teachers are required to have Masters Degrees, they are indeed educated and as such should know better than to engage in such behaviors to begin with.

K-12 only really requires a bachelors, these days.  Teachers aren't really the best paid making about $45,000 a year whereas your typical masters's degree holder makes $75,000.  We are getting what we paid for, basically.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Lilly said:

Where I live you have to eventually get your Masters or an equivalent level of post Bachelors education: https://www.teachercertificationdegrees.com/certification/massachusetts/

Huh, teachers there actually make around $70,000 too. 

Just need a bachelors here in Iowa and the pay is about $50,000 https://teach.com/states/become-a-teacher-in-iowa/

Edited by Gromdor
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22 hours ago, Kismit said:

I may be wrong, but I believe Setton is discussing teachers teaching children about politics in general terms not about pushing an agenda.

To be honest many people get their political views from their parents,  and these views where often passed from their parents. Offering an open bipartisan study into politics could essentially allow a child more freedom to come to chose their own political views based on understanding rather than heredity.

I'm fine with that. Politics and religion should be taught in schools as long as they are presented in an objective way, not in a way that helps instructors force and push their biases and personal ideologies on individuals who may not share their views. Don't tell them that Christianity is the one, true religion. Don't tell them that Trump is a disaster.

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34 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Huh, teachers there actually make around $70,000 too. 

Just need a bachelors here in Iowa and the pay is about $50,000 https://teach.com/states/become-a-teacher-in-iowa/

Not bad, for about 200 days of work per year!

... damn, I really should have planned my life out a little better.

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Parents are the biggest brainwashers - er, indoctrinators - anyway.

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22 hours ago, Setton said:

Again then, if it is not for teachers to teach and parents won't, who will? 

Ah, reading comprehension. Thank you Kismit :-)

Although I'm pretty sure both Panther and lost shaman know exactly what I'm saying but it's harder to argue with than creating a straw man argument that I want to indoctrinate children into 'leftest' (spelling, please check and copy x3 below) ideology :rolleyes:

 

For Panther and lost shaman's benefit, here is the post you should  have read. I've even underlined the key information for you. 

 

I don't do the straw man thing, so you can put that to the side. I'm fine with improving debating skills, if that's what you mean. However, you seem to be supporting instructing (possibly violates parental rights) kids on what to think if they're "uninformed", which is both confusing and contradictory if you're just referring to debating skills. If you *are* just referring to debating skills, I can't disagree with you. 

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