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lost_shaman

Right to an education without indoctrination.

187 posts in this topic

17 minutes ago, rodentraiser said:

As a citizen of the US, it's my country right or wrong, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to say something when I feel it's wrong. And because I speak up when I think the Constitution needs amending doesn't in any way mean I don't like my country or mean that I want to live somewhere else.

What do you think should be amended?

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I'm thinking the right to bear arms might need a little tweaking.

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Just now, rodentraiser said:

I'm thinking the right to bear arms might need a little tweaking.

There is a simple argument against that thought process :  Trump and Sessions are in charge of our country and Mike Pence's wife is just one heartbeat away from being in control. 

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2 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

There is a simple argument against that thought process :  Trump and Sessions are in charge of our country and Mike Pence's wife is just one heartbeat away from being in control. 

I meant, in a perfect world where our leaders aren't interplanetary aliens...

 

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Just now, rodentraiser said:

I meant, in a perfect world where our leaders aren't interplanetary aliens...

 

:lol:

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Posted (edited)

You laugh, but when they come to get you instead of your guns, you won't be laughing then.:alien:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:lol:

Edited by rodentraiser
smilie added in case anyone thought I was serious
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9 hours ago, rodentraiser said:

Besides, the Pledge brings both politics and religion into school in one recitation.

Seriously, though, and with all due respect, I do have to take issue with you saying we should leave the country if we don't like our Constitution, because not liking the Constitution and not wanting to be a citizen of the US is not the same thing. And I don't think liking the Constitution is the issue. It's more about correcting some of the things it doesn't cover and correcting some of the corrections that were made in the past. The fact that we even have amendments means that somewhere along the line someone didn't "like" what the original Constitution contained and took steps to change it.

As a citizen of the US, it's my country right or wrong, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to say something when I feel it's wrong. And because I speak up when I think the Constitution needs amending doesn't in any way mean I don't like my country or mean that I want to live somewhere else.

 

 

The pledge of allegiance does not 'bring politics' into school, it's simply a statement of being a loyal citizen of the United States. The 'under God' part, that I can see...but if one thinks God is only a contrived human concept, so be it. I don't think a lack of belief in those words really matters. Just to add here, don't confuse politics with civics:

Civics: The knowledge and study of the rights and duties of citizens.

Politics: Activity associated with the governing of a nation, especially debate or conflict of opinion between political parties.

 

The Constitution is the framework of our Republic (aka, it is the United States of America) No Constitution, no United States of America. "To the Republic for which it stands" demonstrates this quite well.

Now, as for Amendments, of course the Constitution can (and has plenty of times) been amended. What I was talking about is the concept that because someone doesn't *like* our entire form of government this gives them the right to demand (and recently to even use violence) for it to be scrapped. I've seen people screaming for Marxism, Socialism, Sharia Law and so forth. If one desires to live under these forms of government then my suggestion was to pick a country that functions under these systems and immigrate. A call to legally amend the Constitution is one thing, a call for the destruction of the Republic is quite another thing.

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Posted (edited)

This topic isn´t easy, what is indoctrination in the educational system? I mean like what is an example of indoctrination in the educational system?
I´ll give you an example, Portugal has no religious content in our educational system (unless you go to private religious school and even then you can´t mix religion with say biology and the beyond stupid stuff like creationism and/or inteligent design, but you can have religious classes apart wich may or may not teach religious concepts of creation or morality according to that religious belief).
The only thing I know of in the US is affirmative action, safe spaces or politically correctness.

The mix of religion crap with sciences in some states is a clear indoctrination example.
 

Edited by godnodog

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, Lilly said:

The pledge of allegiance does not 'bring politics' into school, it's simply a statement of being a loyal citizen of the United States. The 'under God' part, that I can see...but if one thinks God is only a contrived human concept, so be it. I don't think a lack of belief in those words really matters. Just to add here, don't confuse politics with civics:

Civics: The knowledge and study of the rights and duties of citizens.

Politics: Activity associated with the governing of a nation, especially debate or conflict of opinion between political parties.

 

The Constitution is the framework of our Republic (aka, it is the United States of America) No Constitution, no United States of America. "To the Republic for which it stands" demonstrates this quite well.

Now, as for Amendments, of course the Constitution can (and has plenty of times) been amended. What I was talking about is the concept that because someone doesn't *like* our entire form of government this gives them the right to demand (and recently to even use violence) for it to be scrapped. I've seen people screaming for Marxism, Socialism, Sharia Law and so forth. If one desires to live under these forms of government then my suggestion was to pick a country that functions under these systems and immigrate. A call to legally amend the Constitution is one thing, a call for the destruction of the Republic is quite another thing.

I agree with you, but sometimes we fight the things that can help us, too. We already have socialism in taxes and schooling, so why can't we have it in health care as well. Yet a mention of that brings out the people who claim the end of the world, or at least the US, will happen if we have socialized health care.

I've just seen what happens when people grip the chains of religion so tight they can't let go and that ends up being bad for them and for everyone else. I hate to see people gripping the chains of the Constitution the same way. It can only end badly. We need to be at least a little flexible and recognize that some change isn't bad just because it is change.

Edited to add: I don't believe in any violent overthrow of any government. It's never worked in the past and the subsequent government of any overthrow has always been worse for the people than what came before it.

Edited by rodentraiser

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12 hours ago, godnodog said:

This topic isn´t easy, what is indoctrination in the educational system? I mean like what is an example of indoctrination in the educational system?
I´ll give you an example, Portugal has no religious content in our educational system (unless you go to private religious school and even then you can´t mix religion with say biology and the beyond stupid stuff like creationism and/or inteligent design, but you can have religious classes apart wich may or may not teach religious concepts of creation or morality according to that religious belief).
The only thing I know of in the US is affirmative action, safe spaces or politically correctness.

The mix of religion crap with sciences in some states is a clear indoctrination example.
 

I've noticed it depends a lot on the parents of the students. In some schools, all you have to do is mention the Pill in sex education classes and you're advocating against morals. If you mention evolution, you're advocating against religion. If you mention the Stonewall riots, you're advocating against family values. Many people prefer none of these things be taught in class, ever.

But each of these things was a catalyst for a major change in our society and we'd be fools to ignore the history of their results. They ARE history and every child needs to know what, where, when, how, and why these things happened. Is that indoctrination?

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A society can have social welfare programs (like Welfare and Medicaid) and not have a Socialist form of government.

Definition of Socialism (as in a form of government):

Definition of Socialism

1 :any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2 a :a system of society or group living in which there is no private property

b :a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3 :a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

Also, the US Constitution does not chain anyone down. Here in the United states we have a very free society. Our Constitution can indeed be amended and citizens are free to move about the country or even leave the country entirely. However, violent overthrow of the duly elected government is illegal, one has to change things legally.

 

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2 hours ago, Lilly said:

A society can have social welfare programs (like Welfare and Medicaid) and not have a Socialist form of government.

 

 

Absolutely correct. However, many people just hear the word "socialism" and automatically think it can't be anything but a socialistic form of government.

I didn't mean the Constitution chained anyone literally. But many people grab for an idea and a cause to hold on to, then they complain they can't get loose when all they have to do is unclench their fist. If that's the case, they're as chained to what they grabbed as if they had shackles attached.

Some people grab religion, some people grab the wrong person to marry, some people grab racism, and some people grab the Constitution. It's not that their grabbing something that is wrong - we all need something to hang on to. It's their refusal to let go when what they're holding is harming themselves and others that keeps them chained.

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