RavenHawk Posted October 22, 2017 #26 Share Posted October 22, 2017 For those of you that don't realize it, Europe had their original native inhabitants. The same with Asia and Africa. But over time, one rises up and conquers their neighbors and that process repeats as civilization advances. Who owns the land is the one who can hold on to it. And that is dependent on the will of the people. The people of any particular nation becomes weak over time. Even though that people may know that, they still let themselves be conquered by someone else. The best way to not let yourself be conquered is to be ready for war 24x7x365. BTW, treaties are meant to be broken. In a hundred years will that space treaty still be viable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
internetperson Posted October 22, 2017 Author #27 Share Posted October 22, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Tatetopa said: Owning the moon or Mars is a joke, I get it. It seems the OP's real question was about ownership and the morality of conquest. Species move in to occupy niches when they can. Sometimes that means out-competing a previous inhabitant. Humans have done the same; a biological imperative perhaps. Morality, like ownership is a human construct. Neither one necessarily originates from any source outside the human mind. Somewhere along the line, we have decided that it is not generally acceptable to take everything we can from those we could dominate, as individuals or as a civilization. It seems that view is slowly evolving over the last few hundred years and still not universally accepted. Exactly the type of answer I was looking for. EDIT: Oh and you're exactly right on your first 2 sentences. I try not to joke too much on the net because w/o body language it can be hard to recognize sarcasm so my bad on violating that rule. Edited October 22, 2017 by internetperson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Noteverythingisaconspiracy Posted October 22, 2017 #28 Share Posted October 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, RavenHawk said: BTW, treaties are meant to be broken. Seriously ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenHawk Posted October 22, 2017 #29 Share Posted October 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said: Seriously ? You're serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted October 22, 2017 #30 Share Posted October 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, internetperson said: EDIT: Oh and you're exactly right on your first 2 sentences. I try not to joke too much on the net because w/o body language it can be hard to recognize sarcasm so my bad on violating that rule. I do it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted October 22, 2017 #31 Share Posted October 22, 2017 5 hours ago, Likely Guy said: I've never heard a Native North American say that everyone else has to leave. Seriously, I enjoy the company and the entertainment value. If it wasn't for White People there would be no one on Youtube blowing themselves up, setting themselves on fire, wiping out on stuff with wheels and knocking themselves out with their own RC vehicles. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Noteverythingisaconspiracy Posted October 22, 2017 #32 Share Posted October 22, 2017 1 hour ago, RavenHawk said: You're serious? I asked you first. Do you really think that treaties are meant to be broken ? If that is the case why have any treaties at all ? Lets just have endless wars over territory just like in the "Good Old Days". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Noteverythingisaconspiracy Posted October 22, 2017 #33 Share Posted October 22, 2017 1 hour ago, RavenHawk said: You're serious? I am serious about finding it amazing that you think treaties are meant to be broken. If that is the case why have any treaties at all ? Lets have endless wars just like in the "Good Old Days". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setton Posted October 22, 2017 #34 Share Posted October 22, 2017 5 hours ago, internetperson said: Regarding your first sentence... Of course I do. Not sure why you said this? Regarding your second sentence, can you elaborate? Well, Americans were already there and now these people want to be there. By your logic, that's fine as long as they get away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setton Posted October 22, 2017 #35 Share Posted October 22, 2017 As far as morality goes, it's subject to the values of the time. What settlers did to the native Americans is reprehensible by modern standards. It is also unacceptable by 1960s standards and so you can't apply the same morality to the moon landing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenHawk Posted October 22, 2017 #36 Share Posted October 22, 2017 18 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said: Do you really think that treaties are meant to be broken ? In response to your statement, perhaps it is not accurate to say that treaties are meant to be broken. It is more appropriate to say that they are almost always broken. That is the nature of the beast. If that is the case why have any treaties at all ? Even so called endless wars require breaks now and then. That’s funny considering that the history of Mankind is warfare. Treaties provide temporary cessations of warfare in order to regroup. Sometimes they provide longer periods of respite. Lets have endless wars just like in the "Good Old Days". You really think that the good old days are past? What do you think will happen when nations get too complacent? Recall the disaster the League of Nations was? All it’ll take is one despot that will take advantage of that. So you seriously don’t understand the way of the world? Now with that said, treaties are also an indication of Man’s eternal hope of a better future. Just because they always end doesn’t mean to just give up on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Noteverythingisaconspiracy Posted October 22, 2017 #37 Share Posted October 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, RavenHawk said: Now with that said, treaties are also an indication of Man’s eternal hope of a better future. Just because they always end doesn’t mean to just give up on them. I'm glad you said that. I'm an optimist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiXilver Posted October 22, 2017 #38 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Ownership is an idea, a thought. There is nothing real, true, tangible, or even important about thoughts, ideas, or notions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Noteverythingisaconspiracy Posted October 22, 2017 #39 Share Posted October 22, 2017 1 minute ago, quiXilver said: Ownership is an idea, a thought. There is nothing real, true, tangible, or even important about thoughts, ideas, or notions. Ok in that case you wont mind giving me all your money then ? Its just an idea afterall. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenHawk Posted October 22, 2017 #40 Share Posted October 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said: I'm glad you said that. I'm an optimist. I’m an optimist too but I am also tempered by reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glorybebe Posted October 23, 2017 #41 Share Posted October 23, 2017 10 hours ago, Likely Guy said: I've never heard a Native North American say that everyone else has to leave. I have. I read comments after articles on CBC, Global and Yahoo. Been quite a few comments like that. We all have to stop looking at the past and worry about our future. If we are killing our home planet and looking to move on to new planets, we need to take a good hard look at the human race and see what we have done wtong so we can stop it and not repeat it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likely Guy Posted October 23, 2017 #42 Share Posted October 23, 2017 11 minutes ago, glorybebe said: I have. I read comments after articles on CBC, Global and Yahoo. Been quite a few comments like that. We all have to stop looking at the past and worry about our future. If we are killing our home planet and looking to move on to new planets, we need to take a good hard look at the human race and see what we have done wtong so we can stop it and not repeat it. There are trolls and closet racists of every stripe that hide in the "comments section". I wouldn't be surprised if some people that write comments like that weren't even Indigenous. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Willis Posted October 23, 2017 #43 Share Posted October 23, 2017 As I understand it (after recently listening to a talk on the subject) the primary purpose of the 1967 Outer Space Treaty was to ban nuclear weapons being placed in orbit or anywhere else that is considered to be "space". The consequence of this was that space, and the celestial bodies therein, was deemed to belong to no-one. A subsidiary purpose of the treaty was to allow for the peaceful exploration of space - as epitomized by the plaque on Apollo 11 that reads "We came in peace for all mankind". The talk I attended was by an expert on the subject who says the treaty will soon need to be radically changed because space commercialization is on the horizon (so to speak). One suggestion is that mining operations, for example, will be sanctioned by the UN, and a levy will be paid to the UN. Some idealists have suggested that the potentially trillions of dollars to be earned from mining asteroids and so on, might finally make the Earth a fairer place. We live in hope. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnchorSteam Posted October 24, 2017 #44 Share Posted October 24, 2017 On 10/22/2017 at 7:01 AM, internetperson said: I'm joking about the moon stuff but I'm interested on yalls thoughts on the who-owns-what matter when it comes to physical land. I don't mean just the Americas either, I mean is there such a thing as land entitlement? I guess it's about as logical as anything else being fired off these days. Fake News went mainstream this year, and the Old Media will just keep getting worse until it dies an ugly death. But as for the Moon .... jeez. Do you really think anyone is going to get serious about it, at all, for the rest of this century? Our civilization is so rotten with corruption and obsessed with navel-gazing that it will have to be radically restructured or just collapse under the weight of it's own B.S. and be replaced by something else before anyone ponies-up the hard cash and the willpower to build anything on the Moon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiXilver Posted October 24, 2017 #45 Share Posted October 24, 2017 It's a compelling topic... ownership. We don't even own our own breath. Like all else, it comes and goes in a flow. Breath really seems the ultimate form of recycling. How many molecules of the breath you just inhaled while reading this, were exhaled by another person with their dying exhale? All form is temporary. A brief, fluid pattern that to our perception may seem very persistent and solid, but is in the end no more solid than clouds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted November 9, 2017 #46 Share Posted November 9, 2017 On 10/22/2017 at 5:09 PM, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said: I am serious about finding it amazing that you think treaties are meant to be broken. If that is the case why have any treaties at all ? Lets have endless wars just like in the "Good Old Days". swap words and you will get your answer. the treaties are there so we do not have endless wars, we need to rebuild, have few new generations grow, and do it again, every century or two, look at most wars, they broke treaties, ww2, ukranian war, ....human history is history or wars 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Noteverythingisaconspiracy Posted November 9, 2017 #47 Share Posted November 9, 2017 4 minutes ago, aztek said: swap words and you will get your answer. the treaties are there so we do not have endless wars, we need to rebuild, have few new generations grow, and do it again, every century or two, look at most wars, they broke treaties, ww2, ukranian war, ....human history is history or wars Its true that human history is rife with war, but that doesn't mean that humanitys future needs to be. More often than not it doesn't end too well for the countries that breaks peace treaties. Two world war were lost by the countries that broke peace treaties, not by those who upheld them. I don't get why some people are so negative about peace treaties. Just because they don't allways work we shouldn't stop making them. Even though people commit murder and steal we don't simply abandon the laws against it, do we ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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