stevewinn Posted November 5, 2017 #101 Share Posted November 5, 2017 2 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said: How much of this banking business, all this Global Financial Powerhouse stuff, is actually for the benefit of the Uk at all? It's all about the Global Economy isn't it. I wonder how much the UK economy actually sees from any of it? I bet most of it goes straight back to New York where the head office invariably is. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/549691/UK_Financial_Centres_of_Excellence.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Red Devil Posted November 6, 2017 #102 Share Posted November 6, 2017 (edited) I'm not sure the people of Catalonia initially wanted total independence but just more self authority which Madrid would have rejected anyway because they thought they were already privileged enough. Then Puigdemont decided to go the full monty and change the referendum into a will for independence which truly pi$$ed off Madrid. Whilst Catalonia contributes approx. 25% to Spain's GDP alone (hence the reason they wanted more a share of the cake than what they believe they are currently getting from Madrid) I doubt they would be financially viable on their own. I'm not 100% sure of this but I believe Spain could deeply influence and impede Catalonia's accession to the EU, in the hypothetical eventuality they did separate, which means they (Catalonia) could end up out in the cold looking for trading partners around the world, similar to what the UK will be facing soon but with no where near similar financial resources. Barcelona turned into a prosperous metropolis in the twentieth century. I believe independence could be its downfall. Edited November 6, 2017 by Black Red Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted November 6, 2017 #103 Share Posted November 6, 2017 The other day Puigdemont along with four of his ministers handed themselves in to the Belgium Police. - I wonder why they never just returned to Spain and handed themselves in, it seems they might want to drag out the process as we witnessed with Assange and the issuing of a European Arrest Warrant. The Belgium authorities should just return them all forthwith so the trial can start, the sooner they start the sooner they can all be locked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted November 6, 2017 Author #104 Share Posted November 6, 2017 I'd have to agree with Stevewinn, in that this DOES look like 'showboating'. Why would they "turn themselves in" to Belgian police ? They have committed no crime in Belgium, nor has Belgium received an international arrest warrent from Spain. So the Belgian police would surely have no interest in them ? Presumably their plan is to create great visuals by - metaphorically - being dragged back to Spain in Chains ! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Red Devil Posted November 7, 2017 #105 Share Posted November 7, 2017 14 hours ago, stevewinn said: The other day Puigdemont along with four of his ministers handed themselves in to the Belgium Police. - I wonder why they never just returned to Spain and handed themselves in, it seems they might want to drag out the process as we witnessed with Assange and the issuing of a European Arrest Warrant. The Belgium authorities should just return them all forthwith so the trial can start, the sooner they start the sooner they can all be locked up. You almost sound kinda like a pro - establishment/globalist. What happened, Brexit fizzling out to be the dud we all told you it would be?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Red Devil Posted November 7, 2017 #106 Share Posted November 7, 2017 14 hours ago, RoofGardener said: I'd have to agree with Stevewinn, in that this DOES look like 'showboating'. Why would they "turn themselves in" to Belgian police ? They have committed no crime in Belgium, nor has Belgium received an international arrest warrent from Spain. So the Belgian police would surely have no interest in them ? Presumably their plan is to create great visuals by - metaphorically - being dragged back to Spain in Chains ! I agree, but would anyone really care? Almost every country in Europe has some region that thinks its different from the main body because of historical traditions, language variance, cultural ties to other regions/countries, yet they're all happy to stay put. I actually think this will become reality in the future (the world formed of smaller States/Regions/Counties based on their mutual cultural/historical geopolitics), but not yet. So I doubt he'll get much support in Europe. Also, I think Puigdemont overestimated the Catalans willingness to separate from Spain. He's going to be a lonely man in the near future. Way to ruin your political career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted November 7, 2017 #107 Share Posted November 7, 2017 22 hours ago, RoofGardener said: I'd have to agree with Stevewinn, in that this DOES look like 'showboating'. Why would they "turn themselves in" to Belgian police ? They have committed no crime in Belgium, nor has Belgium received an international arrest warrent from Spain. So the Belgian police would surely have no interest in them ? Presumably their plan is to create great visuals by - metaphorically - being dragged back to Spain in Chains ! You've got it in one, Its the old 'our great leader' being dragged 'in chains' by an authoritarian repressive Government state where they'll face a corrupt and unfair hearing in court. it'll play well with his supporters but little else. Im surprised by the people who take the opinion, the automatic almost default position that Catalonia should be accepted as a independent state. - not based on sound legal, democratic, political or constitutional grounds but on totally the opposite, illegal. - That we should all ignore the illegal practices from planning the vote to carrying the vote to declaring independence all because they took on the "establishment/Government" and that's what the cool kids do. well those who class themselves as anti-establishment and beyond the Law because Life is all a conspiracy. your A' typical Assange supporters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithisco Posted November 7, 2017 #108 Share Posted November 7, 2017 This is all quite interesting: The Spanish Constitutional Court declared the Referendum illegal (in itself there is NO prohibition against holding one) which set off a series of rather ludicrous events that saw the Spanish Govt. completely over-react to the situation. Had La Moncloa ("Westminster" equivalent) behaved in a more mature fashion and let the referendum go ahead then the independence movement would almost certainly have lost the vote (it was trailing by 10-15% all year) and the situation would have resolved itself without al the ensuing nastiness. As it is, the EAW is lodged with Brussels which means that the "Catalan 5" (as I am sure they will be known) were liable for house-arrest (they were told on the first day of its issue that they were forbidden to leave Belgium) so handing themselves in (rather than being publicly arrested) was probably the best thing. "Sedition" and "Rebellion" are very archaic charges for La Moncloa to bring but it does underline how "militaristic" their Constitution is (remember it was virtually dictated by Franco before his death to appease the Spanish Armed Forces) and how little it is Fit-for-Purpose in the modern age. This is where the UK, not having a written constitution, can evolve its democratic institutions which Spain cannot do because the Constitutional Court needs to approve any changes after a legally constituted referendum requests it. What you will see in the coming weeks will be a growing anger against La Moncloa for deposing and imprisoning a legally constituted Catalan Government...at some point I see Galicia and Pais Vasco testing the Constitutional waters in a similar way and if that happens then all bets will be off for Spain remaining in its present form. Currently both pro and anti-Catalan Independence groups are coming together to protest the national governments actions I just hope that they all take a step back now, seek a way out of this mess that allows Cataluña and La Moncloa to save face. "Hope" may not reflect "reality" however... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted November 8, 2017 #109 Share Posted November 8, 2017 14 hours ago, keithisco said: This is all quite interesting: The Spanish Constitutional Court declared the Referendum illegal (in itself there is NO prohibition against holding one) which set off a series of rather ludicrous events that saw the Spanish Govt. completely over-react to the situation. Had La Moncloa ("Westminster" equivalent) behaved in a more mature fashion and let the referendum go ahead then the independence movement would almost certainly have lost the vote (it was trailing by 10-15% all year) and the situation would have resolved itself without al the ensuing nastiness. As it is, the EAW is lodged with Brussels which means that the "Catalan 5" (as I am sure they will be known) were liable for house-arrest (they were told on the first day of its issue that they were forbidden to leave Belgium) so handing themselves in (rather than being publicly arrested) was probably the best thing. "Sedition" and "Rebellion" are very archaic charges for La Moncloa to bring but it does underline how "militaristic" their Constitution is (remember it was virtually dictated by Franco before his death to appease the Spanish Armed Forces) and how little it is Fit-for-Purpose in the modern age. This is where the UK, not having a written constitution, can evolve its democratic institutions which Spain cannot do because the Constitutional Court needs to approve any changes after a legally constituted referendum requests it. What you will see in the coming weeks will be a growing anger against La Moncloa for deposing and imprisoning a legally constituted Catalan Government...at some point I see Galicia and Pais Vasco testing the Constitutional waters in a similar way and if that happens then all bets will be off for Spain remaining in its present form. Currently both pro and anti-Catalan Independence groups are coming together to protest the national governments actions I just hope that they all take a step back now, seek a way out of this mess that allows Cataluña and La Moncloa to save face. "Hope" may not reflect "reality" however... you paint a gloomy picture Keith if indeed Spain fractures. no wonder Germany is holding war games for the break up of the EU. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pallidin Posted November 8, 2017 #110 Share Posted November 8, 2017 Me thinks that there are enough people's of Catalonia which support separation that this could well lead into a difficult, militant time, for Spain. Hoping all the best. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted November 8, 2017 #111 Share Posted November 8, 2017 (edited) This today: Catalonia independence protesters block dozens of roads as general strike brings parts of region to standstill The Independent · 1 hour ago Travel chaos as Catalan strike demands leaders' release Yahoo News UK · 4 hours ago It does look as though Señor(?) Puigdemont has indeed succeeded admirably in making a martyr of himself. Edited November 8, 2017 by Manfred von Dreidecker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A rather obscure Bassoon Posted November 12, 2017 #112 Share Posted November 12, 2017 It seems that Madrid has inadvertently created political martyrs and a rallying point for the independence movement.A substantial turnout of protestors guess it won't be long before Rajoy sends in the paramilitaries for another round of bloodshed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingitsune Posted November 12, 2017 #113 Share Posted November 12, 2017 On 11/6/2017 at 5:28 AM, Black Red Devil said: I'm not 100% sure of this but I believe Spain could deeply influence and impede Catalonia's accession to the EU, in the hypothetical eventuality they did separate, which means they (Catalonia) could end up out in the cold looking for trading partners around the world, similar to what the UK will be facing soon but with no where near similar financial resources. Barcelona turned into a prosperous metropolis in the twentieth century. I believe independence could be its downfall. As I see it, if Spain is against independent Catolonia's accession to the EU, their only hope would be fusing with another country. It worked for East Germany and using this precedent, North Ireland will be allowed to do the same if she ever reunite with the Republic of Ireland. For Catalonia, it would probably France at this point, of which the province was part back in the Middle Ages. Or more absurd, the province could fuse with Andorra and use the treaties the micro state already has with EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiogene Posted November 13, 2017 #114 Share Posted November 13, 2017 The everchanging map of Europe: Catalonia declares independence, the UK withdraws from the EU...what's next: Scotland, the Basque country, Veneto in Italy, Bavaria in Germany and maybe Greenland declare independence? In North America (the USA where I am), my home state California wants to hold an election next year on whether or not to secede from the union. Quebec has a higher chance of secession, as well Texas and Puerto Rico than California, the majority of our state's voters don't want it...we're very important to the US economy. And for Catalonia, the Spanish government will not let them secede. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted December 22, 2017 #115 Share Posted December 22, 2017 (edited) The election in Catalonia was meant to solve a political crisis. But separatists parties have won a majority they now they need to form a coalition. This result is a defeat for Spanish PM Rajoy, a defeat for Madrid? were does Spanish politics go from here? where does the independence issue go? quelled for now? Edited December 22, 2017 by stevewinn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingitsune Posted December 23, 2017 #116 Share Posted December 23, 2017 (edited) The tough love approche back fired spectacularly. At this point, I guess Rajoy should step down and someone else less sanguine should try something different. Edited December 23, 2017 by Gingitsune 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithisco Posted December 24, 2017 #117 Share Posted December 24, 2017 ...The Spanish Govt. really should have handled the Cataluña situation with more Diplomacy especially with Brexit round the corner and the potential havoc it will cause their economy Quote On 24 June, the IBEX 35—the benchmark stock market index of Spain's stock exchange—plummeted by 12.3%, the largest fall in its history, as a result of the 'Leave' choice winning in the 2016 United Kingdom European Union membership referendum. Link: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted December 26, 2017 #118 Share Posted December 26, 2017 On 10/27/2017 at 7:07 AM, kartikg said: Time to roll some tanks and artillery trucks and put an end to this nonsense once for all. The army with tanks and artillery used internally to supress citizens? Does that legitimize the state? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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