Divinity

[Mr Walker]

53 minutes ago, PsiSeeker said:

My gut instinct is that our direct connection to our experience of reality has been obvious for tens of thousands of years.  The idea that so many beliefs so readily disputable existed as core beliefs for so long seems alarming to me.

I agree with your view of being accurate and correct.  In fact I agree with most/all of what you're saying.  I just don't understand how concepts such as divinity are glossed over so easily in light of existing at all.  Especially when you expect us to integrate into the rest of the universe from limited window we have.

The modern man has been blown up to such an unbelievable extent that trying to portray elements of itself that goes beyond its limited ability to represent the sphere of its own existence has been demolished.

There is much, even just in the realms of Jungian psychology referencing the subconscious mind evolved over countless years, that we are massively overlooking. 

The subconscious mind is overrated  I made a project of accessing and controlling my subconscious mind a s a child, beginning with learning the symbolic language the subconscious uses to sift and process stimuli from outside and inside the mind and eventually accessing the subconscious just as you do the conscious but for different purposes.

  The mind is the mind and i believe, from my experience, that the division of mind into conscious and subconscious is false. For example i can control my dreams by conscious control of my subconscious mind while awake and asleep.

i can use a dream to solve a subconscious or conscious problem in my mind  I can use dreams to overcome fears in real life and use real life control of the subconscious,  to prevent  ever being afraid in a dream  I can split my mind so that i can dream and do waking functions at the same time (although this is very difficult and I haven't  done it for many years ) This is not day dreaming which i cannot do but being asleep at night in a lucid and controlled dream with one part of your mind while going to the toilet making toast and eating it  with another .

Likewise i think psychology has been superseded in many areas by cognitive studies neurological studies and linguistic studies. I studied psychology for 3 years and I already  knew most of what the y tried t teach me and a lot which the y did not know. However it is interesting in helping to understand  human needs drivers motivations etc.  

I am not at all sure that there is any limit on what a human mind  can know and understand I've never realy found anything incomprehensible to me  (although this does not mean i know and understand  everything )    Sometimes it needs years of study and practice to become knowledgeable in a subject  and i don't have the time or effort to spend doing this. 

[sees]

2 hours ago, PsiSeeker said:

I've had an experience where I was quite certain I was staring God in the eyes.  However I am willing to admit that how different people relay their experiences depends on their personalities to a large extent.  Even when presented with the writing on the wall I will still develop my own inclinations and opinions thereof. 

I am not sure that your experience comes under the realm of mystical experiences since it suggests having a preconceived perception of what God is i.e. having eyes.

That said, there is indeed scope for inaccuracy betwixt a mystical experience and its interpretation, i.e. when it then becomes subject to appraisal via our conditioning and use of language.  However, mystical experiences are - by their nature - ineffable which does not detract from their authenticity, just their inability to be communicated well.

Edited November 9, 2017 by sees

[sees]

32 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

The subconscious mind is overrated  I made a project of accessing and controlling my subconscious mind a s a child, beginning with learning the symbolic language the subconscious uses to sift and process stimuli from outside and inside the mind and eventually accessing the subconscious just as you do the conscious but for different purposes.

  The mind is the mind and i believe, from my experience, that the division of mind into conscious and subconscious is false. For example i can control my dreams by conscious control of my subconscious mind while awake and asleep.

i can use a dream to solve a subconscious or conscious problem in my mind  I can use dreams to overcome fears in real life and use real life control of the subconscious,  to prevent  ever being afraid in a dream  I can split my mind so that i can dream and do waking functions at the same time (although this is very difficult and I haven't  done it for many years ) This is not day dreaming which i cannot do but being asleep at night in a lucid and controlled dream with one part of your mind while going to the toilet making toast and eating it  with another .

Likewise i think psychology has been superseded in many areas by cognitive studies neurological studies and linguistic studies. I studied psychology for 3 years and I already  knew most of what the y tried t teach me and a lot which the y did not know. However it is interesting in helping to understand  human needs drivers motivations etc.  

I am not at all sure that there is any limit on what a human mind  can know and understand I've never realy found anything incomprehensible to me  (although this does not mean i know and understand  everything )    Sometimes it needs years of study and practice to become knowledgeable in a subject  and i don't have the time or effort to spend doing this. 

I find it astonishing that you have a low appraisal of our subconscious!  The very fact that it contains info that we are NOT conscious of should be sufficient to prevent such rash judgement.

The subconscious is where we access our intuition from - i.e. the deepest wisdom available to us.  

[XenoFish]

3 hours ago, PsiSeeker said:

What is it within you that expects every body of intellectual intent to portray a significance that you can appreciate?  Is it so much of an insult to you to read something of another that doesn't meet preset standards?

If I had to spend my life evaluating humans on their ability for concise scientific expression and never bothering to directly evaluating the thought that drives their naturally inherent ability to reason then what is the point at all?

I'm not blind to the logical superior reasoning that drives many of you.  I just find it the more boring of the proposals to represent.  I'd rather be dead wrong dealing with fantastical considerations and testing my intellect to making sense of them than dealing with something that follows logically and is easy to reason with in opposition.

There is much to be gained from playing devil's advocate. 

All I'd like is for this to get to a point. Are you looking for someone to just confirm your beliefs or challenge them? 

The thing about playing devil's advocate is that if you do it long enough the fantastical things you're speculating on are pure fantasy. Belonging to the realm of imagination. Believing in the divine or god is just a thought experiment. There is nothing to base it on except your own emotions. What you desire to be true. The divine is just an idea. A man-made concept. When people 'feel' the presence of god, that's just a chemical fueled experience triggered by an external stimuli and an idea.

[8th_wall]

22 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The subconscious mind is overrated  I made a project of accessing and controlling my subconscious mind a s a child, beginning with learning the symbolic language the subconscious uses to sift and process stimuli from outside and inside the mind and eventually accessing the subconscious just as you do the conscious but for different purposes.

  The mind is the mind and i believe, from my experience, that the division of mind into conscious and subconscious is false. For example i can control my dreams by conscious control of my subconscious mind while awake and asleep.

i can use a dream to solve a subconscious or conscious problem in my mind  I can use dreams to overcome fears in real life and use real life control of the subconscious,  to prevent  ever being afraid in a dream  I can split my mind so that i can dream and do waking functions at the same time (although this is very difficult and I haven't  done it for many years ) This is not day dreaming which i cannot do but being asleep at night in a lucid and controlled dream with one part of your mind while going to the toilet making toast and eating it  with another .

Likewise i think psychology has been superseded in many areas by cognitive studies neurological studies and linguistic studies. I studied psychology for 3 years and I already  knew most of what the y tried t teach me and a lot which the y did not know. However it is interesting in helping to understand  human needs drivers motivations etc.  

I am not at all sure that there is any limit on what a human mind  can know and understand I've never realy found anything incomprehensible to me  (although this does not mean i know and understand  everything )    Sometimes it needs years of study and practice to become knowledgeable in a subject  and i don't have the time or effort to spend doing this. 

I actually happen to agree with the over rated ness of the subconscious mind.  I don't see why it should matter in light of the experience I regard as real and happening now.

I'm interested in my direct experience of reality.

When I think of divinity I think of that which exists ideally.  I think many people are too caught up in spiritual affairs and what they can not understand than building an appreciation for that that can be understood.  What makes it ideal to me is that it's something that is accessible at two completely unrelated points of time.  Many developments of physics and mathematics smacks me of this however I think physics and mathematics have developed under incredibly rigid circumstances.

I had an experience when I smoked DMT and was overwhelmed with a powerful feeling of "knowing", a feeling that has visited me from time to time ever since I was around four. 

I've always tried to break things down to their first principles in order to try and make sense of them.  I'm gifted when it comes to academia however something within my desires a greater purity of knowledge endeavour than regurgitated facts barely understood.

I feel like the first philosophers were similar to me for their raw desire to know and be certain of a thing.

This knowing, certainty and understanding of a thing doesn't depend upon anything but your own intellect.

What I've been fascinated about recently is the circular process of knowing, understanding and realization.  

There are times when insight about a certain thing flows and builds upon itself from absolutely nothing other than intellectual force.  A sort of intuition.  For me this is touching on divinity.

[8th_wall]

23 hours ago, sees said:

I am not sure that your experience comes under the realm of mystical experiences since it suggests having a preconceived perception of what God is i.e. having eyes.

That said, there is indeed scope for inaccuracy betwixt a mystical experience and its interpretation, i.e. when it then becomes subject to appraisal via our conditioning and use of language.  However, mystical experiences are - by their nature - ineffable which does not detract from their authenticity, just their inability to be communicated well.

I'm an incredibly open minded person.  My grip on reality is founded on years of being quite critical in terms of what I think is and isn't real.  I've had many experiences that I have no problem with admitting being a subjective experience that played upon certain aspects of my own being.

The question is this, once you believe a thing is a certain way then what does an objective perspection thereof matter in the slightest in light of subjective experience?  We rethink and revaluate and reassess many parts of our perceptions however it doesn't take away from the realness of those perceptions at the time.

Even though I'm highly hmm and ahh about it I've felt quite strongly a presence wake up within me that I decided to recognise as God.

Even though things like this has happened to me I still don't hold them in higher regard than my own carefully considered opinions and inclinations.  It's simply an extra piece of information to consider.

I strongly feel that the idea of a mystical experience is something developed separately from an actual mystical experience.  Our ideas about how things should be makes us miss the thing when it actually happens.

The thing is, we can't have a preconceived notion of how something will be without experiencing it.  The mind, the memory, paints our experiences in very strange ways.

[8th_wall]

21 hours ago, XenoFish said:

All I'd like is for this to get to a point. Are you looking for someone to just confirm your beliefs or challenge them? 

The thing about playing devil's advocate is that if you do it long enough the fantastical things you're speculating on are pure fantasy. Belonging to the realm of imagination. Believing in the divine or god is just a thought experiment. There is nothing to base it on except your own emotions. What you desire to be true. The divine is just an idea. A man-made concept. When people 'feel' the presence of god, that's just a chemical fueled experience triggered by an external stimuli and an idea.

If I can speculate deeply about something that is purely fantastical then that is fine and good to me.  Something belonging to the realm of imagination does not detract away from the impact that has on my being.  The entirety of my being includes my emotions, something based purely on emotion and given the light of careful consideration is a fine thing to me.  I don't have a desire for something to be true, my mind just doesn't pick and choose between what it will and won't consider.  It accepts all with great hunger. 

All concepts are man made.  There is, to my mind, a place these concepts draw their energy from.  The ability to know things about a thing with no prodding other than a deep fire, a passion, a motivation.

Man made concepts existing in the sciences you marvel for their trueness are brought about by minds who don't restrain themselves in what they are and aren't willing to consider as far as I'm concerned.

It is possible to develop a state of being and seeing that to my mind seems divine.  This is just a prediction.  A way to view and see reality that spawns forth knowing and human concepts based on things that are ideal.

Plato described a world of ideal forms.  It is an aspect of intellect, to know an abstract representation of a thing.  It is not the same thing as knowledge.  It's recognising and seeing something for the way it is.  Describing that thing is knowledge.  Whatever that thing is exists independently of a particular individual describing it.  It remains describable by many other individuals completely separate in time and space. 

God is the knowledge of such a thing that exists discoverable.

We have "man made" concepts but what spawns them transcends whatever system we are able to describe.

When I refer to the divine I'm referring to something that doesn't have fantastical aspects to it.  It seems like something that is quite reasonable to me. 

[sees]

30 minutes ago, PsiSeeker said:

I'm an incredibly open minded person.  My grip on reality is founded on years of being quite critical in terms of what I think is and isn't real.  I've had many experiences that I have no problem with admitting being a subjective experience that played upon certain aspects of my own being.

The question is this, once you believe a thing is a certain way then what does an objective perspection thereof matter in the slightest in light of subjective experience?  We rethink and revaluate and reassess many parts of our perceptions however it doesn't take away from the realness of those perceptions at the time.

Even though I'm highly hmm and ahh about it I've felt quite strongly a presence wake up within me that I decided to recognise as God.

Even though things like this has happened to me I still don't hold them in higher regard than my own carefully considered opinions and inclinations.  It's simply an extra piece of information to consider.

I strongly feel that the idea of a mystical experience is something developed separately from an actual mystical experience.  Our ideas about how things should be makes us miss the thing when it actually happens.

The thing is, we can't have a preconceived notion of how something will be without experiencing it.  The mind, the memory, paints our experiences in very strange ways.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree and you seem not to be familiar with what constitutes a mystical experience.

Before my mystical experience (which I don't want to taint by divulging on such a pronounced debunking forum) I had no beliefs pertaining to what I experienced at all!  It was totally 'outside the box', literally mentally.  Therefore, I had to somehow come to terms with this afterwards and take it on board, i.e. modify what I previously had notions about.

Edited November 10, 2017 by sees

[8th_wall]

42 minutes ago, sees said:

I'm sorry but I have to disagree and you seem not to be familiar with what constitutes a mystical experience.

Before my mystical experience (which I don't want to taint by divulging on such a pronounced debunking forum) I had no beliefs pertaining to what I experienced at all!  It was totally 'outside the box', literally mentally.  Therefore, I had to somehow come to terms with this afterwards and take it on board, i.e. modify what I previously had notions about.

Perhaps not.  What is the reasoning that makes you say so?  If I may add, I've smoked DMT, which is about as mystical of an experience as you would ever hope to get with the possible exception of ayahuasca.

Regarding paranormal experience without drug influence when I was a child I used to experience hypnogaugic hallucination that caused me to see spirits and ghosts at night as real as the people around me.  I've also had night terrors with nightmares so real I've been drenched in sweat.

I have had experience when listening to music where I was struck by the sublime beauty of it it brought me to tears.  I've been deeply moved ever since.

I have had experiences where I saw different realities.  I've been on the brink of powerful delusions that took me a long time to work through.

All these things play with my direct experience of reality.

Why is a mystical experience such a pronounced thing or so different from other experience drug induced or otherwise?  Its just something that plays on your power of belief. 

[sees]

28 minutes ago, PsiSeeker said:

Perhaps not.  What is the reasoning that makes you say so?  If I may add, I've smoked DMT, which is about as mystical of an experience as you would ever hope to get with the possible exception of ayahuasca.

Regarding paranormal experience without drug influence when I was a child I used to experience hypnogaugic hallucination that caused me to see spirits and ghosts at night as real as the people around me.  I've also had night terrors with nightmares so real I've been drenched in sweat.

I have had experience when listening to music where I was struck by the sublime beauty of it it brought me to tears.  I've been deeply moved ever since.

I have had experiences where I saw different realities.  I've been on the brink of powerful delusions that took me a long time to work through.

All these things play with my direct experience of reality.

Why is a mystical experience such a pronounced thing or so different from other experience drug induced or otherwise?  Its just something that plays on your power of belief. 

I am not undermining the wealth of experiences you had just saying that, clearly, a mystical experience is not one of them! I used to be a hippy so I have had such experiences too, e.g. LSD.   However, this mystical experience took place decades later after those times.

You display lack of knowledge and also inaccurate assumptions as to what mystical experiences are. They are a phenomenon that have a long history.  I am sorry not to fit into your preconceived concepts but such an experience is touching objective reality (hence why I used the term 'outside the box', i.e. not just an altered state of consciousness) - I glimpsed a universal truth - which involved my ego/sense of self dissolving (and was quite scary); I was left profoundly, in awe after it....  There is nothing more to add here since you will just continue trying to make sense of it in your customary fashion.

Edited November 10, 2017 by sees

[8th_wall]

30 minutes ago, sees said:

I am not undermining the wealth of experiences you had just saying that, clearly, a mystical experience is not one of them! I used to be a hippy so I have had such experiences too, e.g. LSD.   However, this mystical experience took place decades later after those times.

You display lack of knowledge and also inaccurate assumptions as to what mystical experiences are.  I am sorry not to fit into your preconceived concepts but such an experience is touching objective reality (hence why I used the term 'outside the box', i.e. not just an altered state of consciousness) - I glimpsed a universal truth - which involved my ego/sense of self dissolving (and was quite scary); I was left profoundly, in awe after it....  There is nothing more to add here since you will just continue trying to make sense of it in your customary fashion.

I can not be who I am not :P.  I appreciate the time you've taken to hear me out and I respect your intellect enough to seriously consider that I have no notion of divinity, as you say.  This in light of the expectation that you understood what I was trying to drive at in my writings.

I already understand how difficult it is to resonate with someone who doesn't agree with you.  Regardless of the level of abstraction involved of the subject matter.

The thing is, I could be completely wrong about this and feel no less for it.  My love is for the use I have of my own mind.  Saying that I have no notion of divinity or mystical experience simply means that what I'm talking about and referencing is something of another nature.

It doesn't, to my mind, take away from its significance in the slightest.

I'm not trying to make sense of anything.  I'm describing what I know.  I have no trouble with the notion that there are constructs that exist that will forever fall short of an individual's ability to communicate it.  Or even that it is communicable at all. 

Often times we are caught up by someone failing to meet our own views.  I don't feel a need to defend any of the views I have since everything I describe is close to my heart.

Any idea falling from another is only as good as my ability to use it to further my own thinkings.  Many people become defensive in the throws of intellectual discussion, blinded by passion.

Things of an intellectual nature aren't noted for intelligence because of their truthfulness and correctness of representation.  They're noted as such because the members discussing it are receiving insight into matters separate of their own views.

Edited November 10, 2017 by PsiSeeker

[Erno86]

On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 4:08 AM, PsiSeeker said:

I actually happen to agree with the over rated ness of the subconscious mind.  I don't see why it should matter in light of the experience I regard as real and happening now.

I'm interested in my direct experience of reality.

When I think of divinity I think of that which exists ideally.  I think many people are too caught up in spiritual affairs and what they can not understand than building an appreciation for that that can be understood.  What makes it ideal to me is that it's something that is accessible at two completely unrelated points of time.  Many developments of physics and mathematics smacks me of this however I think physics and mathematics have developed under incredibly rigid circumstances.

I had an experience when I smoked DMT and was overwhelmed with a powerful feeling of "knowing", a feeling that has visited me from time to time ever since I was around four. 

I've always tried to break things down to their first principles in order to try and make sense of them.  I'm gifted when it comes to academia however something within my desires a greater purity of knowledge endeavour than regurgitated facts barely understood.

I feel like the first philosophers were similar to me for their raw desire to know and be certain of a thing.

This knowing, certainty and understanding of a thing doesn't depend upon anything but your own intellect.

What I've been fascinated about recently is the circular process of knowing, understanding and realization.  

There are times when insight about a certain thing flows and builds upon itself from absolutely nothing other than intellectual force.  A sort of intuition.  For me this is touching on divinity.

I agree to disagree with the "over-rated-ness of the subconscious mind." My subconscious is taught by me through repetition of certain procedures, which is very important in the execution of a physical operations; because it speeds the process of that operation. For example: My shooting prowess and speed of rounds per minute with a firearm at the gun range...whereas, I let my subconscious pull the trigger, while all my conscious does is aim the sights.

[Erno86]

On ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 6:34 AM, XenoFish said:

All I'd like is for this to get to a point. Are you looking for someone to just confirm your beliefs or challenge them? 

The thing about playing devil's advocate is that if you do it long enough the fantastical things you're speculating on are pure fantasy. Belonging to the realm of imagination. Believing in the divine or god is just a thought experiment. There is nothing to base it on except your own emotions. What you desire to be true. The divine is just an idea. A man-made concept. When people 'feel' the presence of god, that's just a chemical fueled experience triggered by an external stimuli and an idea.

I'm speculating that I had a divine mystical experience, during my first and only UFO sighting, one night in November of 1976, approximately 40 miles west of Washington D.C.; and not being it due to some chemical adrenaline rush coursing though my veins.

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, Erno86 said:

I'm speculating that I had a divine mystical experience, during my first and only UFO sighting, one night in November of 1976, approximately 40 miles west of Washington D.C.; and not being it due to some chemical adrenaline rush coursing though my veins.

Whatever floats your boat.