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How Do You Think We Can Get To Proxima B?


alfa015

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8 hours ago, Grey Area said:

No, the only reason we haven't gone faster is because the mission parameters of any given probe launched haven't allowed for the necessary time for acceleration, I mean there is a bit more to it than that obviously.

Long and short of it is, if we were to send a probe into interstellar space, essentially we could point it in the direction of a nearby star, correct the course to allow for a flyby and simply accelerate until fuel depletion, it's velocity would be dependant on the type of engine and fuel but it would be capable of relatively incredible speeds.

And despite what anyone here has said thus far, sending a probe to another star is well within our capabilities.  It would take a long long time, but we could do it now with current technology.  Getting to another star doesn't require any special knowledge, other than a bit of rocket science and orbital mechanics.

Interstellar travel is tantalisingly realistic. 

see my posts above. We are only just developing the technologies to make interplanetary travel feasible, and economic, let alone interstellar  There is no point in sending a ship to another star which will take 20 years to get there  and 20 years to return, unless you have a specific need or goal. ( i agree with you on mission parameters, but technologies limit realistic parameters)   But if you could get there in 20 days, it could become a holiday destination, and you wouldn't NEED a pressing reason to invest in the travel time. 

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8 hours ago, joc said:

True.  However, you are using the same flawed analogy as Nnicolette in that, getting to Australia from Europe was a doable thing.  There were ships that could make the journey.  7 months...17 hours....both just different measurements of time to get from point A to point B...points that were very possible to traverse.

We have no ships, we have no infrastructure of any kind...no prototypes, nothing.  ...and before you go all postal with a lecture of the infrastructure of our current space achievements....just show me the engine that can propel us into space at say...100,000 mph.  Our infrastructure really is the little boy's floaty.

No; you are making the error of assumption that travelling to other stars is impossible ( it makes me wonder why, when technologically it is not only possible but probable, given a 100 years or so) 

Would you  take  a trip to mars which took you only 3 days? 

I think it is your negative attitude which prevents you doing two things.

First seeing the real, present, technologies, and those in development right now (a quick google can catch you up on this)  and second, having an historical perspective on how technologies develop and the effects that such changes have on things like travel and communication. Think of a person 200 years ago trying to imagine being able to speak with a person on the other side of the world,  using sound and image  which occurs effectively instantly. they would say it was impossible, and that we didn't even have the technologies to begin to attempt such a thing.  And yet, here we are. 

It is possible we might wipe ourselves out, or at least our technological capabilities, but if we don't we are explorers and adventurers by evolution, and will head; upward, outward and onward, as long as we exist.  

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18 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

 There is no point in sending a ship to another star which will take 20 years to get there  and 20 years to return, unless you have a specific need or goal.

Which we have.   Knowledge.  Monkey curiosity.   What makes us human and the reason we are not still living in caves and eating berries.

Hence why we send a ship that took 35 years just to get leave our solar system

And technology has improved since 1977 :)    (due, again, to that illogical stupid monkey curiosity)

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1 hour ago, Essan said:

Which we have.   Knowledge.  Monkey curiosity.   What makes us human and the reason we are not still living in caves and eating berries.

Hence why we send a ship that took 35 years just to get leave our solar system

And technology has improved since 1977 :)    (due, again, to that illogical stupid monkey curiosity)

Actually that was my point But humans also do cost  benefit analyses Even columbus's backers  evaluated the possible returns vs the costs involved  Thus we don't tend to waste our efforts  as much as monkeys do. 

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13 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

So do you think that is the cycle of man? To progress to the point that he ends up where he started.? For you do you think this has happened in the past and if so what make you think so?

jmccr8

I have no idea what the cyclical nature of man is.  I was being sarcastic to a point.  Has sarcasm really gone the way of common sense? Makes sense that it would.

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6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

We have the Chinese.

Already the strongest economy in the world and soon to be the biggest military They have a strong interest in  space travel and are prepared to take the risks involved.

it is quite likely they will be the first nation to put humans on mars, and the y are planning to put people back on the moon  Also, you have entrepreneurs who want to make money from it they are financing new propulsion systems which will make mining the asteroids, and incidentally, travel to mars much faster and economical.

We are really still at pre Columbus stages,   and still developing the technologies required to set sail on the ocean of space. We are also more conservative, and risk averse, than people in Columbus's time, which slows us down but makes it ultimately safer and thus more sustainable  Still, we know more about our solar system than they did about their world 

Check out ion (solar electric propulsion)  which would dramatically reduce travel time to mars, or laser  propulsion which, if developed, could get us to mars in 3 DAYS 

https://www.seeker.com/space/exploration/the-future-of-deep-space-propulsion-may-soon-be-radically-altered

https://www.sciencealert.com/nasa-scientists-are-investigating-a-propulsion-system-that-could-reach-mars-in-3-days

China does not have the strongest economy in the world.  America does.

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27 minutes ago, joc said:

I have no idea what the cyclical nature of man is.  I was being sarcastic to a point.  Has sarcasm really gone the way of common sense? Makes sense that it would.

Okay just checking.:D

jmccr8

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On 11/10/2017 at 0:30 PM, Dejarma said:

no

Lol. 

Always short and to the point, you. 

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6 hours ago, joc said:

China does not have the strongest economy in the world.  America does.

Don't be too certain about that.:)   And if it is   not true this year then it will be the next or  very soon. I have read economic articles arguing that the chinese economy has already surpassed America's when assessed using  certain parameters  while others see it happening in the next year or two. the international monetary fund already says china's economy is bigger

  For the first time in more than 140 years, the US has lost the title of the world's largest economy - it has been stolen by China, according to the IMF. ... TheChinese economy is now worth $17.6tn, slightly higher than the $17.4tn the International Monetary Fund (IMF) estimates for the US.Dec 16, 2014

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30483762

Of course this accepts Chinese figures  on their own economy as correct. 

Forbes estimates that, even using more certain figures, china will surpass America in 2018 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2016/04/29/global-economic-news-china-will-surpass-the-u-s-in-2018/#67d1bf2c224a

As the chart below indicates, the U.S. contributed 21.2% of total global economic output in 1970. This remained consistent until the year 2000. In every year since, with one exception, America’s percentage of the world’s economic output has declined. In 2015, the U.S. contributed 16.7% of the world’s economy. By 2025, this is expected to fall to 14.9%. Equally noteworthy is the exceptional rise in China’s economy. In 1970, China was responsible for a mere 4.1% of the total. This rose to 15.6% in 2015. In 2025, China’s contribution to the global economy is projected to be 17.2%. Since 1990, China’s percentage of total global output has risen every year with one exception (1998), when it fell by one percent. The vertical black-dotted line on the chart denotes the year (2018) that China’s economic contribution is projected to surpass the U.S.Global GDP - Regional Distribution 1970 to 2025

 

The Conference Board estimates that by 2018, China’s contribution to global GDP will surpass that of the U.S. In other words, China’s economy will become more significant than America’s.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-10-18/who-has-the-world-s-no-1-economy-not-the-u-s

What’s the most powerful country in the world? There’s a good case to be made that it’s China.

 

There are many kinds of power -- diplomatic, cultural, military and economic. So an easier question to ask is: What’s the world’s largest economy? That’s almost certainly China.

A Better Way to Size Things Up

Gross domestic product at purchasing power parity, 2016

Source: World Bank

 

If you don’t trust the murky PPP adjustments, a simple alternative is just to look at the price of a Big Mac. The same burger costs 1.8 times more in the U.S. than in China. Adjusting the market-exchange-rate GDP numbers by that ratio would put China even farther ahead.

In some dimensions, China’s lead is even larger. The country’s manufacturing output overtook that of the U.S. almost a decade ago. Its exports are more than a third larger as well.

American commentators may be slow to recognize China’s economic supremacy, but the rest of the world is starting to wake up to the fact:

In other words, not only is China already the world’s largest economy, the gap between it and the U.S. can be expected to grow even wider. This continues to be borne out in the growth statistics -- though China has slowed in recent years, its economy continues to expand at a rate of more than 6 percent, while the U.S. is at just over 2 percent. If that disparity persists, China’s economy will be double that of the U.S. in less than two decades.

So economically, China has surpassed the U.S., and is on track to zoom far ahead in the near future.

 

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5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Don't be too certain about that.:)   And if it is   not true this year then it will be the next or  very soon. I have read economic articles arguing that the chinese economy has already surpassed America's when assessed using  certain parameters  while others see it happening in the next year or two. the international monetary fund already says china's economy is bigger

  For the first time in more than 140 years, the US has lost the title of the world's largest economy - it has been stolen by China, according to the IMF. ... TheChinese economy is now worth $17.6tn, slightly higher than the $17.4tn the International Monetary Fund (IMF) estimates for the US.Dec 16, 2014

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30483762

Of course this accepts Chinese figures  on their own economy as correct. 

Forbes estimates that, even using more certain figures, china will surpass America in 2018 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2016/04/29/global-economic-news-china-will-surpass-the-u-s-in-2018/#67d1bf2c224a

As the chart below indicates, the U.S. contributed 21.2% of total global economic output in 1970. This remained consistent until the year 2000. In every year since, with one exception, America’s percentage of the world’s economic output has declined. In 2015, the U.S. contributed 16.7% of the world’s economy. By 2025, this is expected to fall to 14.9%. Equally noteworthy is the exceptional rise in China’s economy. In 1970, China was responsible for a mere 4.1% of the total. This rose to 15.6% in 2015. In 2025, China’s contribution to the global economy is projected to be 17.2%. Since 1990, China’s percentage of total global output has risen every year with one exception (1998), when it fell by one percent. The vertical black-dotted line on the chart denotes the year (2018) that China’s economic contribution is projected to surpass the U.S.Global GDP - Regional Distribution 1970 to 2025

 

The Conference Board estimates that by 2018, China’s contribution to global GDP will surpass that of the U.S. In other words, China’s economy will become more significant than America’s.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-10-18/who-has-the-world-s-no-1-economy-not-the-u-s

What’s the most powerful country in the world? There’s a good case to be made that it’s China.

 

There are many kinds of power -- diplomatic, cultural, military and economic. So an easier question to ask is: What’s the world’s largest economy? That’s almost certainly China.

A Better Way to Size Things Up

Gross domestic product at purchasing power parity, 2016

Source: World Bank

 

If you don’t trust the murky PPP adjustments, a simple alternative is just to look at the price of a Big Mac. The same burger costs 1.8 times more in the U.S. than in China. Adjusting the market-exchange-rate GDP numbers by that ratio would put China even farther ahead.

In some dimensions, China’s lead is even larger. The country’s manufacturing output overtook that of the U.S. almost a decade ago. Its exports are more than a third larger as well.

American commentators may be slow to recognize China’s economic supremacy, but the rest of the world is starting to wake up to the fact:

In other words, not only is China already the world’s largest economy, the gap between it and the U.S. can be expected to grow even wider. This continues to be borne out in the growth statistics -- though China has slowed in recent years, its economy continues to expand at a rate of more than 6 percent, while the U.S. is at just over 2 percent. If that disparity persists, China’s economy will be double that of the U.S. in less than two decades.

So economically, China has surpassed the U.S., and is on track to zoom far ahead in the near future.

 

 

Charts and stuff!  pffft   I can show charts that show how Germany won WWII...

According to data released today by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, President Trump added a projected 1.9 million jobs in the first eleven months of the year (January through November 2017) and 2.2 million jobs since last year’s election. 

LINK

You haven't calculated something into your analysis apparently....Trump!   Ya!    Remember the Tax Bill that was just passed?  

Yeah...I wouldn't put much faith in China's economy...it really IS built on a house of cards.  And Trump holds the China Trump Card...pun intended.

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History is littered with quotes about what we cannot accomplish because science. Usually printed on humorous desk calendars.

I think there will be "colonies" that will eventually venture out into space even knowing its a one way trip. Even if they personally won't see the destination. Spirit of adventure and all. Look how many people signed up for the Mars One venture, over 200k people responded.  

We are entering a new phase of technology. Once driven mostly by the military industrial complex recent developments have given almost unlimited funding to a handful of people in the private sector to pursue things like space travel, robots, etc... and they want to because they want to. Boy geniuses mostly who grew up on scifi and probably have whole rooms in their high tech mansions just to house their light saber collections.

It is possible now to 3d print food from enzymes that can be stored at room temp long term without degradation. We no longer need hydroponics as a sustainable resource for long term spaceflight. It's really down to figuring out the protective environment for the humans to shield from radiation. Nasa is starting human testing on some kind of dna reset drug to combat radiation sickness. My question is how will it deal with things like dental fillings or replacement knees?   

Just think of how much money could be made from asteroid mining. There are people right now trying to figure out how to do this. They will not be satisfied with slow travel. There are several design teams of different propulsion systems in progress from solar sails to even working out warp drive theory. I am not claiming they will all succeed, but things are being actively pursued. 

If we humans need/want something bad enough, ie a market that will pay well for it, someone will build it. All it takes is a pocket deep enough for the R&D and people with enough knowledge to know limitations and the ingenuity to figure out how to twist them into some form of reality. Every day technology advances and new doors open. It will be interesting to see the next decade if we don't self destruct.

  

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4 hours ago, joc said:

 

Charts and stuff!  pffft   I can show charts that show how Germany won WWII...

According to data released today by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, President Trump added a projected 1.9 million jobs in the first eleven months of the year (January through November 2017) and 2.2 million jobs since last year’s election. 

LINK

You haven't calculated something into your analysis apparently....Trump!   Ya!    Remember the Tax Bill that was just passed?  

Yeah...I wouldn't put much faith in China's economy...it really IS built on a house of cards.  And Trump holds the China Trump Card...pun intended.

Well i guess for your belief TRUMPS statistics  :) . I agree that, ATM, it is arguable, but the trends are so clear and undeniable, that china will soon surpass America in most aspects of the economy if it has not already done so.  In  about 20 years china's military will surpass Americas  and i am sure that American strategists know this.

Right now America has a 50/50 chance of defeating china in a conventional war, depending on spheres of conflict,  but given China's greater industrial capacity, the odds are worsening for America  

Trump is having a positive effect on the economy, and this is good for Americans,  but China's population, abilty to produce goods at a lower cost per unit, resources and global trade,  mean it is   growing much faster than america and has an even greater potential capacity. 

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With a superluminal capable interstellar starship...that is equipped with a micro-mini black hole photon propulsion onboard the saucer craft; using starlight photons or plasma for fuel.

How can I suggest such a starship is superluminal capable? Because I've seen an alien starship in 1976...and since I don't believe in wormhole or interdimensional travel --- my superluminal theory on how starships tic is quite feasible.

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10 minutes ago, Erno86 said:

With a superluminal capable interstellar starship...that is equipped with a micro-mini black hole photon propulsion onboard the saucer craft; using starlight photons or plasma for fuel.

How can I suggest such a starship is superluminal capable? Because I've seen an alien starship in 1976...and since I don't believe in wormhole or interdimensional travel --- my superluminal theory on how starships tic is quite feasible.

I almost saw Jefferson Starship in 1976....but I had the flu.  Please feel free to quote anything else that doesn't actually exist as well. 

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19 hours ago, joc said:

China does not have the strongest economy in the world.  America does.

I don't regard being 20 trillion dollars in debt (a proprtion of which is owed to China) as having a strong economy.

On 12/4/2017 at 2:43 AM, joc said:

Interstellar travel is never going to happen...due primarily to the hardcore realities that govern our universe.  It has nothing to do with imagination or technology...there are some things that cannot be done.  Interstellar travel is one of them.  Again, why haven't we ever achieved a remarkable rate of speed into space?   Delve into that one my friend.  The reason is because...we can't.

Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11 and Voyager 1 are traveling in interstellar space. Voyager 2 will join them soon, and it can be reasonably expected that within my lifetime New Horizons will join them. Not only is interstellar travel possible, it has already been done. Feel free to move the goalposts to support your untenable position.

On 12/3/2017 at 4:38 PM, joc said:

<snip> There is no such thing as time travel because there is no such thing as time.  <snip>

 

On 12/7/2017 at 1:21 PM, joc said:

50,000 years in the future....Humanity has all but vanished from the face of the Earth.  We evolved right back into the stone age.  

But...somewhere up there....a probe of long ago enters Proxima B system.  All is well.  Humanity won the day.  We did it!   Yay.

Meanwhile back at the cave.....Willllmmmmaaaa!

These two positions are mutually exclusive. either you subscribe to the theories of, for example, McTaggart or Barbour and have a completely timeless universe or you have one that contains a point 50,000 years in the future. You  cannot have both in the same argument.

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27 minutes ago, Avenger said:

I don't regard being 20 trillion dollars in debt (a proprtion of which is owed to China) as having a strong economy.

Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11 and Voyager 1 are traveling in interstellar space. Voyager 2 will join them soon, and it can be reasonably expected that within my lifetime New Horizons will join them. Not only is interstellar travel possible, it has already been done. Feel free to move the goalposts to support your untenable position.

 

These two positions are mutually exclusive. either you subscribe to the theories of, for example, McTaggart or Barbour and have a completely timeless universe or you have one that contains a point 50,000 years in the future. You  cannot have both in the same argument.

Of course I can...time is a measurement...a concept of measurement actually...

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20 hours ago, joc said:

I almost saw Jefferson Starship in 1976....but I had the flu.  Please feel free to quote anything else that doesn't actually exist as well. 

"Are black hole starships possible?" --- by Louis Crane & Shawn Westmoreland --- Kansas State University --- 12 Aug. 2009

https://www.arxiv.org/pdf/0908.1803.pdf

Edited by Erno86
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18 hours ago, Avenger said:

Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11 and Voyager 1 are traveling in interstellar space. Voyager 2 will join them soon, and it can be reasonably expected that within my lifetime New Horizons will join them. Not only is interstellar travel possible, it has already been done. Feel free to move the goalposts to support your untenable position.

Voyager 1 is indeed in 'interstellar space'  about 11 Billion miles away.  Proxima B is approximately:  25 Trillion miles away.  Point made! again

 

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19 minutes ago, Erno86 said:

"Black hole driven starships might ply the galaxy"

"Mini black holes as the ultimate power sources capable of Herculean feats"

https://www.seeker.com/black-hole-driven-starships-might-ply-the-galaxy-1765267348.html

 

you do realise what a load of nonsense that article is....right?  Building a black hole?

 

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58 minutes ago, seeder said:

 

you do realise what a load of nonsense that article is....right?  Building a black hole?

 

"Black hole sun,                                                              

Won't you come?

And wash away the rain,

Black hole sun,

Won't you come?

Won't you come?"

(Black Hole Sun, by Sound Garden}

"I thought I saw the light.

Was it real or somethin' I'm imaginin'?

If it wasn't, tell me

Did you see it too?

Did you see the light?

    ....

I guess that means I got a lot to lose."

(A Lot To Lose - by Tesla)

"Relativistic black hole polar jets (stream of high energy particles), collimated probably by the twisting of magnetic fields; can reach speeds of 5 parts in 100,000 below the speed of light (0.99995c)."

"Black Hole Starships Have A Lot To Lose"

http://www.icarusinterstellar.org/black-hole-starships/

 

 

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7 hours ago, Erno86 said:

"Are black hole starships possible?" --- by Louis Crane & Shawn Westmoreland --- Kansas State University --- 12 Aug. 2009

https://www.arxiv.org/pdf/0908.1803.pdf

Thanks for the deep insight of Steven  Hawkins.   Unfortunately, we don't really have a reality based grip on black hole spaceships now do we?

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Space Bears being related in genus to the Drop Bear ergo Uras Imaginarius have a limited ability to use tools due to their paws being filled with cotton stuffing so they cannot help. Also the cotton stuffing tickling their inner ear is what makes them so angry. 

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