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Crazy Horse

The Two Truths

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In the world, the universe and humanity, there is something called the two truths. One is the relative truth and the other the ultimate truth.

In humanity we can say its the difference between the physical and spiritual aspects of Self. 

For example, we can say in a relative sense that each human being is an individual, unique and standing alone. But the ultimate truth is that humanity are exactly the same spiritual energy and that any outward differences are, well, relative.

Another example would be "survival".  The relative truth is that we have to move around, think, speak, act, just to survive. Yet the ultimate truth is that we are eternal beings and that there is no such thing as death, only a new beginning. So one truth contradicts the other yet both are true!

So the relative truth is this material, physical, dualistic universe, and the ultimate truth is something that transcends the mundane - a higher truth.

Sometimes when folk are discussing certain ideas, one might be talking in relative terms and the other in an ultimate way, and it becomes easy to get a crossed wire and a misunderstanding.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the relative truth is very important for our day to day living, but that it's these higher truths that shall bring us harmony and happiness.

Is this ultimate truth something we can weigh and measure? I doubt it, otherwise it would be a relative truth.

But can we experience it?

Can we express this ultimate truth?

 

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36 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

In the world, the universe and humanity, there is something called the two truths. One is the relative truth and the other the ultimate truth.

In humanity we can say its the difference between the physical and spiritual aspects of Self. 

For example, we can say in a relative sense that each human being is an individual, unique and standing alone. But the ultimate truth is that humanity are exactly the same spiritual energy and that any outward differences are, well, relative.

Another example would be "survival".  The relative truth is that we have to move around, think, speak, act, just to survive. Yet the ultimate truth is that we are eternal beings and that there is no such thing as death, only a new beginning. So one truth contradicts the other yet both are true!

So the relative truth is this material, physical, dualistic universe, and the ultimate truth is something that transcends the mundane - a higher truth.

Sometimes when folk are discussing certain ideas, one might be talking in relative terms and the other in an ultimate way, and it becomes easy to get a crossed wire and a misunderstanding.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the relative truth is very important for our day to day living, but that it's these higher truths that shall bring us harmony and happiness.

Is this ultimate truth something we can weigh and measure? I doubt it, otherwise it would be a relative truth.

But can we experience it?

Can we express this ultimate truth?

 

The concept of lesser inside a greater comes to mind. Lesser truth is also a truth although within a Greater Truth and ultimately the Ultimate Truth. So lesser truth is also a truth though a relative one - somewhat an illusion - Maya - Shadow of Reality.

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1 hour ago, Mr. Argon said:

The concept of lesser inside a greater comes to mind. Lesser truth is also a truth although within a Greater Truth and ultimately the Ultimate Truth. So lesser truth is also a truth though a relative one - somewhat an illusion - Maya - Shadow of Reality.

Indeed, on the one hand this world is an illusion, energy vibrating to create matter, a coming together and a falling about, nothing of any Real Substance, yet a veritable feast for the senses. 

And on the other hand, if I were to kiss my loved one on the lips, that experience would be the most real thing to me no matter what is happening anywhere else in the world.

I am beginning to realise that Being, Doing, and Experiencing are what really matter.

Having stuff is not the way to happiness.

 

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Posted (edited)

5 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Indeed, on the one hand this world is an illusion, energy vibrating to create matter, a coming together and a falling about, nothing of any Real Substance, yet a veritable feast for the senses. 

And on the other hand, if I were to kiss my loved one on the lips, that experience would be the most real thing to me no matter what is happening anywhere else in the world.

I am beginning to realise that Being, Doing, and Experiencing are what really matter.

Having stuff is not the way to happiness.

 

Having stuff has it's advantages and disadvantages, as everything is a double edge sword on physical plane of Duality. What matters is experience, self reflection, intuitive and reasoning way of observing the world around us and within us. Morals. Being aware, acting in a way of Devotion. Some people choose Left Hand Path, and others are striving to be benevolent which is harder but the Right way.

Karma is Real.

Edited by Mr. Argon
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4 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said:

Having stuff has it's advantages and disadvantages, as everything is a double edge sword on physical plane of Duality. What matters is experience, self reflection, intuitive and reasoning way of observing the world around us and within us. Morals. Being aware, acting in a way of Devotion. Some people choose Left Hand Path, and others are striving to be benevolent which is harder but the Right way.

Karma is Real.

Can the left hand path truly be considered the wrong way? I see it as necessary in the equation of existence. 

Were the left hand path necessary for the right hand path to exist, those that follow it would have to be considered as sacrificial... Martyrs? Poor satan.

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Posted (edited)

14 minutes ago, Wes4747 said:

Can the left hand path truly be considered the wrong way? I see it as necessary in the equation of existence. 

Were the left hand path necessary for the right hand path to exist, those that follow it would have to be considered as sacrificial... Martyrs? Poor satan.

That is a very good philosophical question Frank. It is necessary.

Right or Wrong. Both sides are martyrs, Right is a martyr of Left, Left is a martyr of themselves via Karma.

The difference is that Left side will plunge into Darkness, while the Right will ascend to Higher Spheres.

This Physical sphere is a domain of Left Hand Path. The Prince of Darkness is in charge over here.

Edited by Mr. Argon
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10 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said:

Having stuff has it's advantages and disadvantages, as everything is a double edge sword on physical plane of Duality. What matters is experience, self reflection, intuitive and reasoning way of observing the world around us and within us. Morals. Being aware, acting in a way of Devotion. Some people choose Left Hand Path, and others are striving to be benevolent which is harder but the Right way.

Karma is Real.

Ultimately speaking, putting our future happiness and well being into a material thing will bring us suffering, because everything that is made shall one day brake, you, I, your loved ones and this whole planet. 

So it becomes how we react to a challenging situation that matters. I have found this to be the most difficult part, to react with good humour, or at least in a more philosophical way. I have made some good progress so to speak, but once I start to think that Im doing ok, a whole bunch of "really difficult" stuff lands on my lap and I see how much yet I have to understand.

A small volcanic eruption, and then I get to ponder said passion!

But the ascetics of India for example, have nothing and they don't want anything, except perhaps some very basic necessities of life. A householder with a family is in a sense weighed down, so I guess it boils down to what you want from life and that is exactly how it should be.

For me personally, I agree with your ideas of morals, self awareness and devotion, but thats because I want to know God for my Self, I believe in those things because I know the results of such behaviour.

And I do believe in karma too, I experience it on a very basic and fundimental level each and every day..

 

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2 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Ultimately speaking, putting our future happiness and well being into a material thing will bring us suffering, because everything that is made shall one day brake, you, I, your loved ones and this whole planet. 

So it becomes how we react to a challenging situation that matters. I have found this to be the most difficult part, to react with good humour, or at least in a more philosophical way. I have made some good progress so to speak, but once I start to think that Im doing ok, a whole bunch of "really difficult" stuff lands on my lap and I see how much yet I have to understand.

A small volcanic eruption, and then I get to ponder said passion!

But the ascetics of India for example, have nothing and they don't want anything, except perhaps some very basic necessities of life. A householder with a family is in a sense weighed down, so I guess it boils down to what you want from life and that is exactly how it should be.

For me personally, I agree with your ideas of morals, self awareness and devotion, but thats because I want to know God for my Self, I believe in those things because I know the results of such behaviour.

And I do believe in karma too, I experience it on a very basic and fundimental level each and every day..

 

Materialism without a connection to Spirit is a hard core Satanism, emptiness and Nihilism. That doesn't mean that you can't have things - only they souldn't mean the World to you.

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30 minutes ago, Wes4747 said:

Can the left hand path truly be considered the wrong way? I see it as necessary in the equation of existence. 

Were the left hand path necessary for the right hand path to exist, those that follow it would have to be considered as sacrificial... Martyrs? Poor satan.

Sympathy for the Devil.

Why not?

It cant be much fun breathing in all that sulphur all day and night! And I bet the health and safety brigade are giving him absolute hell over all those open fires and what not!

But seriously, duality, is what it is, so why not make the best of it?

Actually, for what its worth, I don't believe in hell. This place, planet earth, could be considered as hell, or purgatory, or even heaven. Its perspectives and reactions that make it so.

We have all the power we need, we just need to exercise it more often.

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Actually, for what its worth, I don't believe in hell

Hell exists. But it is not eternal. It is temporal state of "paying" a homage to Karma.We all have evil inside of us. Nobody is clean, otherwise we wouldn't be here.

Edited by Mr. Argon

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14 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said:

Materialism without a connection to Spirit is a hard core Satanism, emptiness and Nihilism. That doesn't mean that you can't have things - only they souldn't mean the World to you.

Again, Im not really feeling this.

For one, we are all connected to Spirit whether we realise it or not. And for two, a good person is a good person no matter what. Love is love, the truth is the truth, and for me is doesn't matter whether you have everything or nothing in the material sense, but how we see ourselves and each other and how we react to difficult times.

Having said all that, I do believe that having a sense of Spirit will help you immensely, its like the difference between having a rudder, a sail, a map, and compass for your boat, or being swept this way and that by the ocean currents. Some folk might end-up being accidentally carried to a paradise isle by the winds and the tides, but then you have to ask, was that really an accident?

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@Crazy Horse - you ask if universal truth is something that can be measured.  Re. that we are all connected, I would cite (as evidence for this) that we are instinctively drawn to help out e.g. to strangers, at their hour of need.  This comes from an innate humane drive which, to thwart acting on, could be regarded as selfish and lacking a thriving soul/spiritual connection.

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27 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said:

Hell exists. But it is not eternal. It is temporal state of "paying" a homage to Karma.We all have evil inside of us. Nobody is clean, otherwise we wouldn't be here.

Maybe this place is where we "pay" for our previous indiscretions? After all, it is here that we get to exercise our free will, it is here were we might suffer terrible pain and suffering.

It is here where some folks are born with great intelligence, health and beauty.

And some folks into abject misery and poverty.

And as you well know, Nirvanna and Samsara are not two different places, only two different states of mind.

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44 minutes ago, sees said:

@Crazy Horse - you ask if universal truth is something that can be measured.  Re. that we are all connected, I would cite (as evidence for this) that we are instinctively drawn to help out e.g. to strangers, at their hour of need.  This comes from an innate humane drive which, to thwart acting on, could be regarded as selfish and lacking a thriving soul/spiritual connection.

I agree, it can be felt and kind of measured in a self experiential way. The problem being that we dont know how long this particual piece of string is exactly! We know something is good instinctively because it works, (for everybody) and because it feels good too.

And yes I absolutley do see the helping of others even in times of severe danger as being evidence of our higher spiritual connection. I think we can learn to express this connectivity, this demonstration of loving kindness. But then one level of attainment becomes the foundation for the next build.

So yes, it can be seen and experienced, but actually measured?

 

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2 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

I agree, it can be felt and kind of measured in a self experiential way. The problem being that we dont know how long this particual piece of string is exactly! We know something is good instinctively because it works, (for everybody) and because it feels good too.

And yes I absolutley do see the helping of others even in times of severe danger as being evidence of our higher spiritual connection. I think we can learn to express this connectivity, this demonstration of loving kindness. But then one level of attainment becomes the foundation for the next build.

So yes, it can be seen and experienced, but actually measured?

Well measuring universal truths is not exactly amenable is it?  We have a hard enough time measuring RELATIVE truths, ha!  This is not to invalidate the reality of universal truths but just to say that our reductive methods and reasoning are woefully inadequate to offer irrefutable proof of them!    Some things are known intuitively and have a higher wisdom.

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10 minutes ago, sees said:

Well measuring universal truths is not exactly amenable is it?  We have a hard enough time measuring RELATIVE truths, ha!  This is not to invalidate the reality of universal truths but just to say that our reductive methods and reasoning are woefully inadequate to offer irrefutable proof of them!    Some things are known intuitively and have a higher wisdom.

I see the material as being material, the spiritual as being spiritual and although the two "blend" into each other, at the end of the day, the Spirit cannot be measured because it is unmeasurable.

I stand to be corrected on this point, its just my thoughts and feelings right now.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Crazy Horse said:

Maybe this place is where we "pay" for our previous indiscretions? After all, it is here that we get to exercise our free will, it is here were we might suffer terrible pain and suffering.

It is here where some folks are born with great intelligence, health and beauty.

And some folks into abject misery and poverty.

And as you well know, Nirvanna and Samsara are not two different places, only two different states of mind.

Partly here and partly in another realms. Realms not detectable by ordinary senses interpenetrate this world, they are not anywhere else. Just when the soul leaves this realm, other realms are entered. There are of course ways to visit this realms while still attached to physical body,  but I would rather not do it. It's too risky.

Edited by Mr. Argon

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6 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

In the world, the universe and humanity, there is something called the two truths. One is the relative truth and the other the ultimate truth.

In humanity we can say its the difference between the physical and spiritual aspects of Self. 

For example, we can say in a relative sense that each human being is an individual, unique and standing alone. But the ultimate truth is that humanity are exactly the same spiritual energy and that any outward differences are, well, relative.

Another example would be "survival".  The relative truth is that we have to move around, think, speak, act, just to survive. Yet the ultimate truth is that we are eternal beings and that there is no such thing as death, only a new beginning. So one truth contradicts the other yet both are true!

So the relative truth is this material, physical, dualistic universe, and the ultimate truth is something that transcends the mundane - a higher truth.

Sometimes when folk are discussing certain ideas, one might be talking in relative terms and the other in an ultimate way, and it becomes easy to get a crossed wire and a misunderstanding.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the relative truth is very important for our day to day living, but that it's these higher truths that shall bring us harmony and happiness.

Is this ultimate truth something we can weigh and measure? I doubt it, otherwise it would be a relative truth.

But can we experience it?

Can we express this ultimate truth?

I'm not quite getting what you mean by 'ultimate truth'. Do you mean that it is uniform by nature? You seem to be associating this 'ultimate truth' with the spiritual and metaphysical, and yet I can think of plenty of ways in which the spiritual is relative.

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Just now, Aquila King said:

The relative truth is that we have to move around, think, speak, act, just to survive. Yet the ultimate truth is that we are eternal beings and that there is no such thing as death, only a new beginning. So one truth contradicts the other yet both are true!

I don't see this as contradictory, once one separates it out by it's parts. The body dies, while the soul lives on. No contradiction there. Both are objectively true, because one truth does not cancel each other out. It'd be different if you said that 'the body dies, and the body lives on.' That's a contradiction. But in separating the physical and the spiritual, no contradiction is made.

Also, it seems to me that the word 'ultimate' itself is rather relative. I find cheesecake to be the ultimate dessert, but you may disagree. By what means to you claim one truth to be 'ultimate'?

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3 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Both are objectively true, because one truth does not cancel each other out.

:tu:

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4 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

It'd be different if you said that 'the body dies, and the body lives on.' That's a contradiction.

:yes:

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Posted (edited)

The interesting question to ask in that case would be "are you talking about the same body?" and if the answer is "yes" - that would be nonsense.The answer "no" would require further elaboration/explanation,

Edited by Mr. Argon
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Posted (edited)

26 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Also, it seems to me that the word 'ultimate' itself is rather relative.

This is dubious. Why do you think so? The Ultimate is something perfect and final.

ultimate (adj.)

 

1650s, from Late Latin ultimatus, past participle of ultimare "to be final, come to an end," from Latin ultimus (fem. ultima) "last, final, farthest, most distant, extreme," superlative of *ulter "beyond" (from suffixed form of PIE root *al- "beyond"). As a noun from 1680s. Ultimate Frisbee is attested by 1972.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

n philosophy, metaphysics, religion, spirituality, and other contexts, the Absolute is a term for the most real being. The Absolute is conceived as being itself or perhaps the being that transcends and comprehends all other beings.

While there is agreement that there must be some fundamental reality, there is disagreement as to what exactly that might be. For example, some theist philosophers argue that the most real being is a personal God.[3] Some pantheist philosophers argue that the most real being is an impersonal existence, such as reality or awareness. Others (such as perennial philosophers) argue that various similar terms and concepts designate to the same Absolute entity.[4][5] Atheist, agnostic, and scientific pantheist philosophers[6] might argue that some mathematical property[7] or natural law such as gravity or simply nature itself is the most real being.[8]

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

-source-

Edited by Mr. Argon
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1 minute ago, Mr. Argon said:

This is dubious. Why do you think so? The Ultimate is something perfect and final.

Apart from actual infinity, perfection doesn't exist. It's merely a relativistic human construct.

Name anything that you consider 'perfect', and I could easily come up with a better version of it.

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2 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Apart from actual infinity, perfection doesn't exist. It's merely a relativistic human construct.

Name anything that you consider 'perfect', and I could easily come up with a better version of it.

This is absolutely correct, but we all had in mind Ultimate Reality as something which is not Changeable, which is Immutable. In the physical dimension which is a subject of a constant change there is not anything immutable, because everything is a subject of a constant change "panta rei". So you are absoultely right if we were refering to a World of Change, but we didn't, at least I did not.

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