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The astonishing uselessness of refuting God


8th_wall

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3 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Trust is a funny thing. There's something real that happens when it's implemented. 

Belief however is usually problematic. Especially when trying to share it with another person.

We're not intended to be uniform in belief, but in trust and faith, we are able to be united.

 

 

Yes we are, It's called the 'Golden Rule'.

Edited by Likely Guy
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21 minutes ago, Likely Guy said:

Psi, what you say sounds highbrow but means very little.

Why is it useless to refute God?

Speak with me in plain English, please.

"What we come to realise as knowledge is actually surprisingly useless in aiding our ability to gain a richer appreciation and understanding of the nature of anything." < That was your opening statement. What in the hell does that even mean?

I'm really just idly speculating around a particular idea.

What I mean is that knowing anything is useless in aiding a rich and deep appreciation of the nature of what one knows about.

We lord knowledge because of its truth and correctness and effectiveness in describing the state of reality.  We lord those who conceived that knowledge.  We live our lives by what we know.

There is nothing wrong with knowledge for knowledge sake.  It is very entertaining.  We shouldn't live by it however.  This is the modern construct.

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2 minutes ago, PsiSeeker said:

I'm really just idly speculating around a particular idea.

What I mean is that knowing anything is useless in aiding a rich and deep appreciation of the nature of what one knows about.

We lord knowledge because of its truth and correctness and effectiveness in describing the state of reality.  We lord those who conceived that knowledge.  We live our lives by what we know.

There is nothing wrong with knowledge for knowledge sake.  It is very entertaining.  We shouldn't live by it however.  This is the modern construct.

I can appreciate, though not agree with that.

Knowledge, like faith, comes from life's lessons and shouldn't be demeaned by another.

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8 minutes ago, Likely Guy said:

I can appreciate, though not agree with that.

Knowledge, like faith, comes from life's lessons and shouldn't be demeaned by another.

Re-reading my words there, I expect debate.

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1 hour ago, Likely Guy said:

I can appreciate, though not agree with that.

Knowledge, like faith, comes from life's lessons and shouldn't be demeaned by another.

But alas...wouldn't that be wisdom instead of knowledge?

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11 hours ago, PsiSeeker said:

I'm not drawing reference from any particular Christian denomination.  I attended the old apostolic church in my early life though.  I see what you're saying though.

When I say "God" I'm referencing a meta level "thing" apparent across all deities.  You know what I mean when I say, "Ra is an Egyptian God."  It's synonymous to "Ra is an Egyptian Buddha".  This is a mild misunderstanding of what I mean though.  I.e the statement, "God the father, God the son and God the holy Ghost is a Christian God" or "God, the Christian God" isn't correct understanding of what is meant.  I feel like I need a better working knowledge of the rules of grammar to explain this.  My knowledge of the English language seems to be failing me here.

Anyway.  There's no need to understand particularity of reference to such a specific level.  What you bring to mind when I say "God" is the correct understanding of what I mean.

I understand the nuances within formal systems of function.  I'm not drawing reference to those systems however.  Or trying to come up with a system of my own.

The development of well defined formal understandings spawn from idle speculation.  Those systems didn't come about because the logic was available and drilled into existence.  Idle speculation is underappreciated and underdeveloped.  People are too scared to say what they think, and would rather say how they feel.  I understand what you mean when you say proclaiming truth however what's wrong with this?  I think people should be way way more open about proclaiming their truth.  It's the easiest way to learn about holes in one's thinking.  The level of rigour required before people will open up and begin speculating alongside others is absolutely ridiculous.

I like that metric.  It's what I meant when I said that knowledge of fiction is no different to knowledge of non fiction.  What one studies and what one knows and remember is unimportant.  What did Einstein say?  "Education is what remains after one has forgotten what one learned at school."!

Okay... so are you then saying it's "astonishing(ly) useless to deny that humans can have a theoretical concept of an invisible ruler deity" or "It's astonishing(ly) useless to deny a deity similar to the Christian god"?   One denies a term.  The other denies an entity.  I think you are saying it's useless to deny the Christian deity, a stance that any person of another religion (and agnostics and atheists) would deny.  

On the other hand, we can all agree that "humans have terms for supernatural beings.  Many cultures also have terms for a supernatural being who is at the head of a group of other beings (like Odin.)"

Some cultures don't have an idea of a heavenly father figure who leads a band of lesser beings.

I am not a fan of idle speculation.  It is a frequent weapon against truth (an easy idle speculation is so much more conveniently understood than a complex truth.)  It is often uninformed.

You might want to look up the context of the Einstein quote.  It's from a speech he gave at a commencement and he was quoting someone else (possibly folk knowledge rather than a specific person.)

 

 

Edited by Kenemet
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"Faith", in a non-religious aspect, is actually very present in our everyday lives.

Edited by pallidin
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"Faith" is higher than "hope"

We all know "hope"... we hope for this, we hope for that.

 

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16 hours ago, PsiSeeker said:

I'm saying that we're placing way way way too much importance and awe on driving our environment into a hyper modern construction driven by the ideas, opinions and belief of a very small minority of humanity.  I don't want to live in a world that has been meticulously constructed for me to turn a cog and receive some paper I can trade for my car to go and turn the cog some more.

So being set into a life of manual labor would be preferable to you?

Or do you simply not wish to work and want to be free to do whatever you like, whether it is of use or benefit to society?

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On 12/17/2017 at 2:22 PM, Likely Guy said:

I can appreciate, though not agree with that.

Knowledge, like faith, comes from life's lessons and shouldn't be demeaned by another.

What I try to mean is that there's a difference between knowing something, or about something, and having it as am intrinsic part of your being.  Something you truly understand.  It's difficult distinguishing between knowing something and truly understanding something.  Once you understand something fully you no longer need the knowledge of it.  You can produce it out of nothing wherever appropriate without needing to refer to some memory.

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On 12/18/2017 at 5:37 AM, Kenemet said:

So being set into a life of manual labor would be preferable to you?

Or do you simply not wish to work and want to be free to do whatever you like, whether it is of use or benefit to society?

Maybe the way I worded what I said wasn't very good.

Basically...  I had a vision in my head of what I expected from society and people.  I'm highly critical of myself and have high expectations of myself.  It's disheartening to see the state of the world falling short from what I expected when growing up.  This is my own fault and something I have to come to terms with that so I don't end up living a life of disappointment.

All in all I believe that where we're at presently is far better than where we've been and, in general, I'm fairly optimistic of the future.

 

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On 12/17/2017 at 2:22 PM, Likely Guy said:

I can appreciate, though not agree with that.

Knowledge, like faith, comes from life's lessons and shouldn't be demeaned by another.

Knowledge should be taken further.  There are higher conscious states to reach than the simple knowing of a thing or having knowledge of a field of study or what have you.  Particularly self knowledge, which is where I think people should aim there intellectual efforts as soon as possible. 

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On 12/17/2017 at 5:58 PM, Kenemet said:

Okay... so are you then saying it's "astonishing(ly) useless to deny that humans can have a theoretical concept of an invisible ruler deity" or "It's astonishing(ly) useless to deny a deity similar to the Christian god"?   One denies a term.  The other denies an entity.  I think you are saying it's useless to deny the Christian deity, a stance that any person of another religion (and agnostics and atheists) would deny.  

On the other hand, we can all agree that "humans have terms for supernatural beings.  Many cultures also have terms for a supernatural being who is at the head of a group of other beings (like Odin.)"

Some cultures don't have an idea of a heavenly father figure who leads a band of lesser beings.

I am not a fan of idle speculation.  It is a frequent weapon against truth (an easy idle speculation is so much more conveniently understood than a complex truth.)  It is often uninformed.

You might want to look up the context of the Einstein quote.  It's from a speech he gave at a commencement and he was quoting someone else (possibly folk knowledge rather than a specific person.)

 

 

If truth can not stand up to idle speculation than it doesn't deserve to be called truth as far as I'm concerned.  The truth should welcome all and any challenge its claim as truth.  I used to lord truth.  In recent times, probably the last 5-10 years, I've come to realise how insanely difficult it is to say a thing that is true in all frames of reference.  Coming up with universal indefinite truth that is a fundamental aspect of all of existence is incredibly difficult from my thinking about it.

Anyway, my statement is mostly directed at atheists.  Saying one doesn't believe in God and then defending that point is a useless activity as far as I'm concerned.  That's just due to how I've come to think of God.

Regardless of who was quoting what where it's still apt. 

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On 12/17/2017 at 6:10 PM, pallidin said:

"Faith" is higher than "hope"

We all know "hope"... we hope for this, we hope for that.

 

I think so too.  The only thing I've come across that I believe actually requires faith is that there exists an objective reality.  Believing that there is something beyond yourself.  All anyone knows is subjective reality.

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11 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Why do get the feeling that you use a lot of words to sound smart.

I know I tend to be a bit verbose...  It's really not intentional.  What I write is how it comes out in the moment.  A bit lazy of me I suppose, I don't take into consideration how my audience will read what I write and as a result I don't spend time drafting.

What makes you think I'm trying to sound smart? 

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13 minutes ago, PsiSeeker said:

I know I tend to be a bit verbose...  It's really not intentional.  What I write is how it comes out in the moment.  A bit lazy of me I suppose, I don't take into consideration how my audience will read what I write and as a result I don't spend time drafting.

What makes you think I'm trying to sound smart? 

I honestly think that you can sum up your point in a few sentiences, rather than paragraph. Perhaps this is nothing more than personal gripe. For me, it looks like you're walking around the world when you only need a mile.

Edited by XenoFish
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1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

I honestly think that you can sum up your point in a few sentiences, rather than paragraph. Perhaps this is nothing more than personal gripe. For me, it looks like you're walking around the world when you only need a mile.

No, you're not the first one to notice this.  What you see when I write is active thought being constructed in the moment.  I'm discovering what I think as I write it so it's unlikely for what I write to be very succinct.

Thing is, if I spend too much time grappling with what I want to say then often times I don't end up saying anything at all, or constructing what I want to say takes a very long time as I consider all the possible trajectories and implications.  Second guessing, doubting, never ending.  Analysis paralysis. 

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1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Maybe my brain is wired different then. I like getting to the point. 

I'm the same way.

I'd rather spend hours on the proper way to structure a few sentences then write several pages of useless jargon.

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3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Why do get the feeling that you use a lot of words to sound smart.

So you use less words an dont make any sense...

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On 17/12/2017 at 6:34 AM, PsiSeeker said:

Apatheist?  Nice!  I wonder who comes up with these terms and why there should be a need to identify as something other than who you are.  I think it takes away the personal-ness of a thing.  One is stronger as a group than as an individual I suppose.  Hmm, I identify as an Australian I guess.  But when I do that what I'm doing is playing a certain role, and I recognise that.  The moment you identify as a thing you recognise that you're playing a certain role within a group that values the group's integrity for the sake of the group and not necessarily for what the group stands for or variance that might exist on an individual scale within the group.  Once you identify another group it causes you to behave towards that group in a certain way based upon what you know about that group as a perception rather than recognising that the individual, and what they say, isn't an embodiment of that group.  Interaction exists where the primary concern is making sure that whatever comes about does not attack the integrity of one's group.

Why is this is important?  Because once you've stated that there is a group that you identify as the perception you're trying to bring across is simply, "I have many friends who think the following and agree with me"  That is, justification for why you think what you think.  Evidence for why you think what you think.  That in and of itself is more important to most people than actually understanding why they think what they think.  Like I said, most people don't really understand anything.  They simply say how they feel.

Why am I saying this?  Because saying only, "I don't care about God"  (without first telling me you're an Apatheist) would be an indication of a stance arrived at on a personal, individual basis.  Knowing that, the discussion that will follow will be a discussion of thought based upon an underlying body of reason that caused that stance to be taken.  However, once you tell me that you've taken a stance based upon learning about a particular group and ascribing to it?  Well my friend.  Then what we're talking about is belief.  Feeling.  Dealing with things on an emotional level.

So what should I do about this?  Well, since I can't deal with you on a personal basis I need to figure out where you fit in based upon the other groups that you perceive, which is really difficult considering that I have to see the underlying emotion behind anything that looks reasonable that you might say.

I like that you let me know that you have an expectation for "my sort" or "my type".  This is good, it means that I know that there is a stereotype you identify me with.  It means that you see me as belonging to a particular group.  It means that everything I said is heavily biased based upon a mental perception of a group you believe me to belong to.  What it means is that you will loosely generalise what I say based upon perception of how you perceive my status.  Anything you say therefore is said not in response to what I write, but in response to my status.  That is, you aren't capable of becoming open minded and perceiving things from my perspective simply for the fun of it.  Because why not?  What could it hurt?

I like you though.  So I won't talk about me and what I think!  I'll give you what you want!  Validation.  Approval.  Belonging.  Understanding.  But I won't identify by it.  Why?  Because it's not based on feeling.  It simply makes sense.

I don't care about God either to be perfectly honest with you.  I care about my fellow human!  My fellow human does and says very perplexing things that I try and make sense of.  That I wonder about endlessly!  Some say God!  Some say not God!  Some says who cares!  Everyone has good points!  They all say they are best!  Well, that can't be right.  What to do?  Analyse.  Reason.  Ask why.  Determine first principles.  Transcend.  Rinse.  Repeat.  I don't like it when people argue.  So draining.

Wonderful Mind You..

I love how you keep wanting to Learn more.....

Striving for Knowledge...

To help in Understanding..

Keep it Up..

Head up...xx

Peace to you friend xx...

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2 hours ago, PsiSeeker said:

I know I tend to be a bit verbose...  It's really not intentional.  What I write is how it comes out in the moment.  A bit lazy of me I suppose, I don't take into consideration how my audience will read what I write and as a result I don't spend time drafting.

What makes you think I'm trying to sound smart? 

Your Unique...

We all are...!!

Express You, this is what you have control of, No one else..

And Variety is the Spice of Life...

MO***

 

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12 minutes ago, MauriOra said:

Wonderful Mind You..

I love how you keep wanting to Learn more.....

Striving for Knowledge...

To help in Understanding..

Keep it Up..

Head up...xx

Peace to you friend xx...

Wonderful words of encouragement Mauri...Thats what is needed more than negativity..Good on you.

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1 minute ago, Hre2breal said:

Wonderful words of encouragement Mauri...Thats what is needed more than negativity..Good on you.

Absolutely Hre2breal....

We know what negativity causes, and I think thats enuff for a millennia...

Time for Change...

Seeking of Knowledge without Judgement is what is Wanted...

I want that...

So I Go Do....

And so say all of us...!!

Hip hip hooray........ Lol..

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