Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Wings of Selkhet

Hajj pilgrims stone 'devil' Bush, Sharon, Blair

32 posts in this topic

MENA, Saudi Arabia (Reuters) -- Hajj pilgrims pelted stones at symbols of the devil on Friday, with many saying they were targeting U.S. President George W. Bush and other world leaders seen as oppressing Muslims.

Last year, 250 people were crushed to death at Mena's Jamarat Bridge, but so far new measures by the Saudi authorities have averted any stampedes.

This year, more than 2.5 million Muslims streamed into the area for the stoning, meant as an act of purification and rejection of temptation.

Many pilgrims said they were thinking of Bush and his allies while they were hurling pebbles at the site where the devil is said to have appeared to the biblical patriarch Abraham.

"Yes, the devil is Bush and that other one from Israel -- (Prime Minister Ariel) Sharon. And there's (British Prime Minister) Blair too," said Egyptian Tia'amah Mohammed.

"We throw the stones so we can vent our anger at them."

Many Muslims revile Bush for his perceived bias towards Israel and the U.S. occupation of Iraq. Anger at Sharon also runs deep over Israel's occupation of Palestinian land and Jerusalem, the site of one of Islam's holiest shrines.

"During the stoning I couldn't help thinking of Bush, Blair and Sharon," said British Muslim activist Yvonne Ridley.

Saudi Arabia, facing a storm of criticism, revamped the Jamarat area, expanding the stoning targets and deploying thousands of security forces to control the crowd.

They also replaced the three pillars the pilgrims stone with thick walls providing a larger target to prevent the crush that normally occurs at the site.

Graffiti denouncing Bush had daubed the pillars. The new walls have so far remained clean.

Other pilgrims said politics did not cross their minds. "This is all about God, and that's all I was thinking about when I threw the stones," Yemeni Ali al-Suweiny said.

Pilgrims, in white robes meant to eradicate differences in race and class between Muslims, have poured into the Jamarat area since Thursday, the first day of the stoning ritual and the start of the Eid al-Adha feast.

Most pilgrims will finish by Friday -- the penultimate day of the Hajj -- and then go to Mecca to circle the Kaaba, which symbolizes the house of God, for the final time.

"Thank God, we have not witnessed anything unusual or any accidents or deaths so far during the stoning," Brigadier Mansour al-Turki told reporters. "We hope the improvements will continue to keep the pilgrims safe."

This year's pilgrimage, a once-in-a-lifetime duty for every able-bodied Muslim, has been overshadowed by the Asian tsunami disaster and the threat of al Qaeda-linked violence in the kingdom, which has been battling the group for nearly two years.

On Thursday, a leading Saudi cleric warned Muslims against waging terror attacks in the name of Islam. The Hajj was first performed by Islam's Prophet Mohammad 1,400 years ago.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/01...reut/index.html

Kinda disconcerting... blink.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kinda disconcerting... blink.gif

459055[/snapback]

No kidding... wacko.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is stuff like this that makes me view the Muslim religion as "Violent"..... hmm.gif

I know they have a right to practice their views, beliefs and religion the way they want to... but just seems a little ... well... barbaric to me dontgetit.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lol i love it how the US is oppressing muslims, how quickly they forget Afghanistan (soviet), Kuwait, Kosovo, and i'd even go so far to argue Afghanistan'01

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lol i love it how the US is oppressing muslims, how quickly they forget Afghanistan (soviet), Kuwait, Kosovo,  and i'd even go so far to argue Afghanistan'01

459095[/snapback]

It is true though... the worst people to oppress muslims in this century were muslims themselves... Yemen civil war, the take over of Arabia by the Saud family, Lebanon, Iran-Iraq war, Algerian civil war, Syrian political cleansing, Turks against Kurds, etc.

I think they should check themselves and their current leaders before blaiming the entire world for their oppression.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here we go again grin2.gif A couple of quotes in an article and out pours a bunch of generalized, simple minded comments about things we don't at all understand grin2.gif

I tell you what is really barberic yes.gif It's judging a quarter of the humanity by the stereotypes formed in narrow minds through heavy, malicious propaganda which results in blind hatred yes.gif A little bit of thinking might be hard, but will prevent one from being racist, naive and ill informed about the world one lives in. grin2.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here we go again grin2.gif A couple of quotes in an article and out pours a bunch of generalized, simple minded comments about things we don't at all understand grin2.gif

I tell you what is really barberic yes.gif It's judging a quarter of the humanity by the stereotypes formed in narrow minds through heavy, malicious propaganda which results in blind hatred yes.gif A little bit of thinking might be hard, but will prevent one from being racist, naive and ill informed about the world one lives in. grin2.gif

459127[/snapback]

I agree, and if you saw, I wasn't saying that Islam is evil, only that the ones who oppressed muslims worst in this century so far are muslims themsleves, infinitely more than anyone else.

The Iran-Iraq war itself killed 1 million muslims.

Sadaams genocide against the Kurds took 180,000 muslims.

The Turks killed 30,000 kurds in revange of the terror campaign.

The Baath government in Syria killed 20,000 syrians in 1981.

The ayatolah government oppress women and the general public in Iran.

One shouldn't even start discussing how much religious opression is used in Saudi Arabia.

And lets not forget the civil war in Lebanon, and the one in Yemen, and the one in Algeria, and the one in Sudan, all in which muslims killed hundreds of thousands of other muslims.

I think that untill the muslim world will learn to take it's own responsibility for it's situation today, nothing will change.

It's easy to blame others for your suffering, to look for a scapegoat.

Too bad they can't see their own responsibility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I wasn't saying that Islam is evil
I wasn't saying that you were saying that:D

think that untill the muslim world will learn to take it's own responsibility for it's situation today, nothing will change.

Right, and the same goes for everyone else too, the Christians, the Jews, the Buddists, the Hindus, the Athiests... devil.gif

It's easy to blame others for your suffering, to look for a scapegoat

Who said I was suffering? ohmy.gif I'm not looking for a scapegoat no.gif I am one laugh.gif If by 'you', you mean me as a muslim, what makes you so sure that I am one? grin2.gif Are you stereotyping again? grin2.gif In any case, I don't see the Muslim world as the big massive block that you tend to see it and find arguing in very general terms quite useless. geek.gif

As for Muslims killing Muslims, it's a logical contradiction since if both parties were Muslims, then why would they kill each other? Both parties might think they are Muslims, but that doesn't make them one no.gif There are warmongers and lunatics and mass murderers who have always pretended to represent god and Islam, but only fools believe them. rolleyes.gif And everyone knows that some of the worse crimes in history have been commited in the name of all religions, and not just Islam. sleepy.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Who said I was suffering? ohmy.gif I'm not looking for a scapegoat no.gif I am one laugh.gif If by 'you', you mean me as a muslim, what makes you so sure that I am one?

No, by "you" I meant the general laymen in the street which blames Israel, US and all the other western world for it's problems.

Those are the kind of people that threw those stones. Those are the kind of people from Morocco to Pakistan who burn western flags.

Right, and the same goes for everyone else too, the Christians, the Jews, the Buddists, the Hindus, the Athiests...

You know?

If it were only Muslims vs. Jews, or Muslims vs. Christians, I might agree...

but when it's starting to be more clear that it's Muslims vs. Jews, Christians, Hindus and Buddhists, then maybe, just maybe, the muslims should check to see if there's something wrong with their leaders are doing and with their world view that others are to be blamed for the problems of the muslim world.

After all, there are 1.2 billion muslims around the world, so u can't say they are a minority. They also have more than 50 states in which they are a majority (55 states if I'm not mistaken).

I'm not saying that they are totaly wrong and eveybody else are totaly right - there's no black and white in this issue. But considering that many of the current conflicts around the world are where Muslims are fighting against non-muslims, maybe they should check themselves to see what they have been doing wrong by their side.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember when i was young getting told we are all equal,we are all human beings,

black

white

catholic

musleim

jew

the list goes on,what has happened since then?

I have a view that would upset some but be loved by others

I will not give either side the satisfaction of hounding and bringing me down

I did not think that is a christian thing to do

so i will let you all make a fool of your selfs doing it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
targeting U.S. President George W. Bush and other world leaders seen as oppressing Muslims.

something is clearly wrong with them. what has the US done to muslims? they attacked countries but never their religion

I meant the general laymen in the street which blames Israel, US and all the other western world for it's problems

that is so true. i know many muslims who think like that.I have reason to believe msoques are the reasons for that. some imans are teaching their extreme thoughts to young children

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No, by "you" I meant the general laymen in the street which blames Israel, US and all the other western world for it's problems

You have defined a new meaning for the word 'you'. grin2.gif

Those are the kind of people that threw those stones. Those are the kind of people from Morocco to Pakistan who burn western flags.

It's a long way from Morocco to Pakistan, and if you're designating the Muslim world by that, you stopped too early in the west since there are Muslims further east than Pakistan. yes.gif And people have been doing the Hajj ceremonies long before any of the modern states existed. So it's completely wrong to assume ( or pretend) that any current political conflict might be at the origins of stone throwing at the Hajj. original.gif

but when it's starting to be more clear that it's Muslims vs. Jews, Christians, Hindus and Buddhists,

I don't think you and I are talking about the same world. blink.gif

the muslims should check to see if there's something wrong with their leaders

I agree and add that others such as the Jews and the Christians should do the same. yes.gif Boy, I never thought I would be dragged into making such simple minded over-generalizations. devil.gif

But considering that many of the current conflicts around the world are where Muslims are fighting against non-muslims, maybe they should check themselves to see what they have been doing wrong by their side

And the generalizations continue sleepy.gif Where exactly are you talking about? Which conflict are you exactly refering to? As I said before talking in general terms only leads to confusion and I don't believe, like you do in any relgious wars or line-ups along the lines you are talking about. Generalized slogans are boring and I don't why I have my ears full of that. sleepy.gif

the list goes on,what has happened since then?

Nothing, only the number of idiots and those who exploit them has increased sharply in the world grin2.gif

that is so true. i know many muslims who think like that

And I know many who don't. geek.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I warned you all this would happen

waiting for round two

in the red corner we have one side that is always right

and in the other corner we have the other side that is always right

get the picture

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And red in the middle we have a judge who doesn't know who's right grin2.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree, and if you saw, I wasn't saying that Islam is evil, only that the ones who oppressed muslims worst in this century so far are muslims themsleves, infinitely more than anyone else.

The Iran-Iraq war itself killed 1 million muslims.

Sadaams genocide against the Kurds took 180,000 muslims.

The Turks killed 30,000 kurds in revange of the terror campaign.

The Baath government in Syria killed 20,000 syrians in 1981.

The ayatolah government oppress women and the general public in Iran.

One shouldn't even start discussing how much religious opression is used in Saudi Arabia.

And lets not forget the civil war in Lebanon, and the one in Yemen, and the one in Algeria, and the one in Sudan, all in which muslims killed hundreds of thousands of other muslims.

I think that untill the muslim world will learn to take it's own responsibility for it's situation today, nothing will change.

It's easy to blame others for your suffering, to look for a scapegoat.

Too bad they can't see their own responsibility.

459139[/snapback]

You are absolutely right Erikl thumbsup.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And red in the middle we have a judge who doesn't know who's right grin2.gif

460176[/snapback]

Your reply turned out to be correct

Red is me and people like me who sit back in amazement and listen to both sides and in one minute all ready know nobody is going to win

the only problem is we dont have the JUDGE ,there would be no point in having one because both sides would never agree with the so called JUDGES out come

as i said both sides are always right,when usually they are wrong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Zephyr, here's a short list:

Muslims against Hindus in Kashmir.

Muslims against Christians in the Balkan, Chechnya, Lebanon, Sudan, Nigeria, etc.

Muslims against Buddhists in western China (the Turkestan area).

Muslims against Jews in the Israeli-Arab conflict.

and ofcourse muslims vs. muslims.

Should I continue?

Obviously something is not right with their leaders' behaviour if most of the hot spots in the world are where muslims and non-muslims are not getting along.

It wasn't always like that, it's something new, from recent centuries.

You can't blame the west here too, cause obviously China and India aren't part of the west.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zephyr, here's a short list:

Muslims against Hindus in Kashmir.

Muslims against Christians in the Balkan, Chechnya, Lebanon, Sudan, Nigeria, etc.

Muslims against Buddhists in western China (the Turkestan area).

Muslims against Jews in the Israeli-Arab conflict.

and ofcourse muslims vs. muslims.

Should I continue?

Obviously something is not right with their leaders' behaviour if most of the hot spots in the world are where muslims and non-muslims are not getting along.

It wasn't always like that, it's something new, from recent centuries.

You can't blame the west here too, cause obviously China and India aren't part of the west.

460309[/snapback]

Very well put ERIC but as i said before you are now going to be a target for the im not wrong ,its never us BRIGADE the very best of luck thumbsup.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was Samuel Huntington who said about 10 years ago "Islam's borders are bloody, and so are it's innards." He was right, but he's been excoriated for it ever since.

Edited by Redneck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This hatred goes back centuries. I think the U.S. is seen as an extension of past European abuse. In the past it was religion, then Empirical exspansion, now oil and terrorism. Who decided the current borders of Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Oman, and all the other Arab countries in the middle-east? The Europeans did centuries ago when their Empires began to crumble. Who are we to decide Kuwait is separate from Iraq. Saddam wanted it back, we needed to protect our oil interests with Kuwait, so we defended Kuwait. Why the hell do we care what they do, over their, to their own people. We don't care whats going on in Africa and all the tyrannical warlords down there. Why? because they don't have anything we need bad enough to go to war and die for. I don't advocate terrorism or justify it by any means. I'm just saying it's a f'd up situation, that goes way back and you can see how they could find reasons to hate us. Now we have reasons to hate them, by their Islamic extremists. We've made war on these extremists, who operate in Muslim cities and coutries filled with innocent Arab-Muslims who don't hate us. We go over to kill the terrorists and the innocent muslim family gets caught in the middle, this creates disdain. I mean it goes on and on.. Its a neverending cycle, IMO. Heres a little history lesson.

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/areas/middleeast.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not taking the p*** out of your post in any way ,you have went to great detail and put a lot of efort into it

But to many ppl keep looking back and bringing up the past which keeps the flames burning ,it may be a good time now to start looking to the future before there is no future

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Theres always hope for a better tomorrow, definatly. My post was to help myself and others better understand the current feelings, on both sides. Knowledge of the past, understanding of the present, hope for the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I under stand what you are saying completly,and by the way your post and links made for good reading

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Zephyr, here's a short list:

Muslims against Hindus in Kashmir.

Muslims against Christians in the Balkan, Chechnya, Lebanon, Sudan, Nigeria, etc.

Muslims against Buddhists in western China (the Turkestan area).

Muslims against Jews in the Israeli-Arab conflict.

and ofcourse muslims vs. muslims.

Should I continue?

Obviously something is not right with their leaders' behaviour if most of the hot spots in the world are where muslims and non-muslims are not getting along.

It wasn't always like that, it's something new, from recent centuries.

You can't blame the west here too, cause obviously China and India aren't part of the west.

460309[/snapback]

Let me first say contrary to some people's stereotyped beliefs here, and as I said before, I don't think at all along religious lines and divisions, and since I live in what you would call the Muslim world, I know the dire need for reforms here and in the way others perceive the said world. However, one can not expect reforms in the Islamic world when nobody else outside does their own reforms and modify their way of seeing things. Besides all this, putting the Muslim world in one big block and making generalized statements can only worsen the misconception that already exists.

In Kasmir it is a conflict over territory and mainly between the old rivals India and Pakistan. Of course both these countries exploit the religious differences between the people there to their own benefits and for reaching their own goals. It is totally wrong to think that this is a religious war between Muslims and Hindus since if this had been the case there would have been a bloody civil war in India which is obviously not the case.

In the Balkans; as everybody knows the Serbs were massacrering Muslims while the whole civilized Europe was watching. The Serb war criminals, and at their head Milosevich started the massacres and if it had not been for the Americans to come all the way from across the Atlantic to put an end to what was one of the most barberic ethnic cleansing of history, and clean up the mess in the middle of Europe, god knows where all that would have ended up. If you think that was a war started by Muslims against Christians you are totally mistaken and revising history which is still too early in this case.

In Chechnya it is the Russians that ruined the local people's town and villages just because they wanted their independence. Again this is not a religious war started by Muslims against Christians as you are so wrongly implying. Of course the savegary of the Russians led to what has now become Chechnyan terrorism.

The Lebanese civil war was the result of foreign interventions in that country and if that had been a crusade type war, countries like Syria would not have sided with some Christian militias and the war would still be going on now since the ethnic landscape of Lebanon has not changed at all.

In western Sudan, the ones being killed by the Sudanese army and the militia are Muslims, so are the militia and the army. So you're wrong again in implying that it is a religious war. It is an ethnic war between the Arabs and the non-Arabs there. The war in the South is of the same nature, only against a different ethnic group. I find it horrendous that nobody interfers to put an end to the ethnic conflicts in the Sudan. About Nigeria, I don't really know enough about the situation there to comment, but I haven't heard of any calls by Muslims for a holly war in Nigeria.

In western China the majority are Muslims and it is their home there. Chinese have had problems with all religions, just look at Tibet. All they want is to be able to practice their faith freely, something they had done for centuries before communist China. They want their basic human rights to be respected and your implications that Muslims are at fault in China and that they have declared a religious war on the Buddist there is completely wrong.

The Arab-Israeli conflict, as the name suggests is a war over territory. This particular war is the direct result of the Israeli occupation of land. If this had been a religious war between Muslims and Jews, it would not have been limited to Palestine but would have involved Jews and Muslims everywhere which is obviously not the case. So again this war does not fall into the category of religious wars that Muslims have declared on the whole world. This idea is more of a fantasy than the real situation. Besides, Israel needs to review a lot of her policies including the occupation of territories and building of a wall in the 21st century before we can expect any real peace to come about. Especially that we now know the fait of all the walls brought up by different people throughout history. ' A wall that goes up must someday come down', an old Persian saying.

As for Muslims against Muslims, I have explained before that this statement is a logical contradiction since if both sides were Muslims they wouldn't fight a religious war against each other.

I don't know where you got the idea that I was blaming the West or anybody else for that matter, and as long as people believe being a Muslim means an automatic anti-Western stance, I can't help but to think that they have huge stereotypes formed in their minds and a misunderstanding of great proportions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its always good to hear a view from some one from that part of the world we are talking about.

You should have more knowledge than most about it ,as long as you keep down the middle and not stray most of us will listen gladly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.