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Lottie

Do Poltergeists Exist?

30 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Debate suggestion by Hoagy.

Do Poltergeists exist or are they our subconscious?

Hoagy will be debating Against the existance of Poltergeist.

We are looking for one more person to debate for the existance of poltergeist.

Please PM if any questions. thumbsup.gif

Edited by Lottie

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I do believe that Monkeyburd is willing???

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I will face Hoagy, the Pumpkin-Headed Skeptic, fighting in favor of Poltergeists exsistance. grin2.gif

Give Monkeyburd Time to prepare however... I would like some time to research/prepare, as Poltergeists are a bit unresearched by monkyburds. laugh.gif

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Posted (edited)

Okay this should be fun! original.gif

MonkeyBurd will be debating For the existance of Poltergeist.

Hoagy will be debating Against the existance of Poltergeist.

The debate will consist of an introduction, 5 bodily posts showing countering of the opponent, good style, persuasive arguments and information relevant to the topic, and a conclusion. Remember to quote all your sources, no flaming or offensive langauage.

Also please try try to keep to the time limits of the rules which are 7 days per post otherwise points will start to be deducted, please read here for further info: Rules

If for any reason this is not possible during the course of the debate please let myself or disinterested know so we can work out an agreement so this does not happen.

Any questions, we are just a PM away.

Have fun and good luck!

thumbsup.gif

Edited by Lottie

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Monkeyburd, let me know when you are ready, drop me a PM so we can get the ball rolling, as I too need time to delve into the forbidden library...

thumbsup.gif

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Guys you have 72 hours from now to get it together thumbsup.gif I think this is adequate time. Let me know if this is inconvenient via PM.

Thanks original.gif

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The Beginner's Guide to Poltergeists Introduction Post

~Poltergeist means "Noisy Ghost" when translated from German, and the term couldn't be more right. Poltergeist activity covers a wide range of experiences; a few popular examples of poltergeist activity include:

~Objects being thrown about and levitated by unseen forces

~Unexplained Knocking or "crashing" sounds

~Doors and windows opening and closing by themselves

~Lights going on and off by themselves

~Intense temperature variations (Cold Chills,or extremely hot objects)

~Hearing Footsteps and voices when no one else is present

~Ectoplasmic slime blink.gif

~Malfunction of electronic devices such as phones and cameras

Poltergeist Activity can be generally mild in some cases, but some have been known to be downright malicious and lethal. Many people have been injured by poltergeist activity weather struck by fast moving objects thrown by these unknown forces, randomly ignited on fire, or even levitated high enough to break bones when dropped back to the ground. ohmy.gif

What makes Poltergeists so different from normal hauntings is usually the scale of the incidents, the spirit's sense of intelligence, and the human agent.

Poltergeist spirits show a definite intellect when creating their mayhem, which I find to be most frightening of all. Such instances include the "Danny Poltergeist" case in which messages from a spirit named Danny began appearing in the home. Danny mainly wrote messages only within one room of the home, while slamming doors and flickering lights appeared elsewhere in the house.

It also has been seen by numerous paranormal researchers that poltergeists usually select an adolescent youth with psychological problems (typically teenage girls) and stay with them, causing all the commotion around them. Sometimes the human agents to these poltergeists don't even realize they are the ones connected to the activity for quite some time.

The last two paragraphs have lead paranormal experts to two pretty solid conclusions about poltergeist exsistance;

1. Poltergeists are emotionally disturbed spirits which essentially latch on to the emotional and psychological energy of similarly distraught teens and channel their energies and doings through them; basically a human agent and an accompanying spirit. This would explain the occurance of disturbances outside of the home and the maliciousness of some of the events.

2. Poltergeist activity is all actually subconscious psychic energy working itself out of distraught teens; where rather then being the human agent for a spirit the teen themselves is causing all the problems and no spirit is involved. This would also explain poltergeist activity outside of the home, but also concentrate on certain poltergeist activities linked to no actual identifiable spirit or ghost.

What is the right answer, we don't quite know yet and may never know. Regardless of knowing exactly what poltergeists are and what causes them, they are a real thing and deserve to be studied. There are thousands of Poltergeist cases every year and the same many cases still going on even today. To say there's no such thing as poltergeists is just not being truthful based on the bulk of legitimate unexplainable cases of ongoing poltergeist activity.

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The Poltergeist phenomena, introductory post:

For most people, their knowledge of poltergeists is coloured by fantastical and extraordinary events like those depicted in films such as Steven Speilbergs 'Poltergeist'. The reality is not as dramatic; although witnesses would argue that they are dramatic enough.

An early dictionary definition spells out the traditional image, if not a modern interpretation: 'Poltergeist. A noisy ghost or hobgoblin that creates certain manifestations, such as the moving of furniture, breaking of crockery or other noisy disturbances.' (Taken from The Universal Dictionary of the English Language - 1958)

Strangely enough, poltergeist phenomena is the most widely reported of all ghostly activity, but unfortunately the characteristics of said phenomena would suggest that it's too difficult to observe using technology.

Although the most 'active' and noisy kind of phenomena, poltergeists seem to be extremely shy when deliberate investigation is at hand. In fact in it's way of working it seems to have almost human characteristics - playful, annoying and sometimes downright dangerous, although there are few cases of anyone actually coming to physical harm from it's 'actions'.

The modern age that we now live in suggests something a little more credible regarding poltergeists, instead of sprites or mischevious hobgoblins. The main theory is that normal, everyday people can create effects similar to psychokinesis (from 'psycho' meaning 'mind', and 'kinesis' meaning 'movement'), also known as PK - which is the power to supposedly manipulate objects using the mind.

It is from this scientific approach that I hope to put forward the case that poltergeist phenomena is more an unknown capability of the human mind, than evidence of outside, or 'supernatural' intelligence.

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Poltergeists and You. Body Post 1

geek.gif Let me begin by listing a few Famous Poltergeist cases and a brief description of them...

~Borely Rectory:An old Manor in the English county of Essex, and came to be called,"The Most Haunted House in England." Writing appeared on the walls, ghostly footsteps, lights going haywire, a headless man, a girl in white, strange whispering, and numerous other apparitions were witnessed. Ms. Foyer was the supposed human agent of all the activity and was continually slapped and pushed by unseen hands, was bombarded with flying objects and furniture, and almost smothered by her matress. blink.gif

~San Pedro Haunting: A classic human agent story where the majority of activity took place around the woman Jackie Hernandez who lived in her California home. Disturbances included lights flickering, strange smells and sounds, a (get this) glowing cloud that tried to suffocate her also witnessed by others wacko.gif , and perhaps ectoplasm dripping from the walls and cabinets. The disturbances would fallow her to many places she went outside of her home as well. Researchers believed she was subconsciously the cause of all the phenomenon, however the incidents continued within the house even after she moved out.

~The Macomb Poltergeist: This one is one of my favorites because its so unbelievable.. Occurring in Macomb Illinois through the late summer of 1948 large brown spots began to appear on the walls, floors, and ceilings of the home, and then later burst into flames, all right before witnesses eyes! The amount of incidents steadily increased and in one week over 200 fires broke out, approximately 29 per day throughout the house. The family kept buckets of water all over the house to prepare for more that would happen.. but eventually the fire raged out of control and the house burned to the ground. When the family moved out into the barn, the burn started burning as well! When they moved into the garage, the garage burned down! When they moved into a vacant house, it also began to witness the same fire events. Eventually the police decided the cause of it all was the young girl Wanet who basically was starting all the fires with matches.. however there were multiple witnesses who could testify that this was not the case.

Here's where you can find these three Poltergeist Cases

I will save some more cases for future posts, believe me, there are many more out there. original.gif

Strangely enough, poltergeist phenomena is the most widely reported of all ghostly activity, but unfortunately the characteristics of said phenomena would suggest that it's too difficult to observe using technology.

Poltergeist cases tend to rely on creditable human witnesses the majority of the time. There is a definite human aspect to the majority of Poltergeist cases, (with a few exceptions) and the fact that poltergeist activity goes on alongside people living out their lives is also why the reports of these cases are so numerous. yes.gif

The modern age that we now live in suggests something a little more credible regarding poltergeists, instead of sprites or mischevious hobgoblins. The main theory is that normal, everyday people can create effects similar to psychokinesis (from 'psycho' meaning 'mind', and 'kinesis' meaning 'movement'), also known as PK - which is the power to supposedly manipulate objects using the mind.

To say that Poltergeists are a form of subconscious PK by the so called,"human agent" is just as plausible an answer when dealing with certain poltergeist cases. The idea is today very popular and being more accepted to understand instances of these disturbances around certain young individuals...

However, the amount of cases supporting a spirit coupled with a human agent are staggering. The most popular cases of poltergeist hauntings have included actual spirits who have come to show themselves before the human agent or others in the household.

There are cases in which no such independent spirit/ghost is witnessed, and disturbances still go on. These cases could be weaker spirits without the courage or power to show themselves or perhaps the idea as mentioned before, a variety of subconscious PK from a human agent. However, stating that all poltergeist activity is the result of subconscious PK is a ridiculous assumption and (besides the fact) the PK theory doesn't necessarily disprove poltergeists; it merely offers a new theory into the same type phenomenon.

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Monkeyburd has indeed given some good examples of supposedly 'authentic' cases. Whenever poltergeists are being discussed, you can usually find one or more of those cases popping up.

I have been digging around in my library and found a couple of more unusual cases, that while displaying the trademark poltergeist characteristics, have a little something else up their sleeve.

The first:

‘Following unpleasant sexual advances at the point of a gun made by her boyfriend (whom we shall call ‘Bob’), ‘Esther’ became the victim of a poltergeist attack.

At first she thought she heard a mouse, but none could be found. A box began moving independently. The following night, Esther began to be affected by something unknown that reddened her face and swelled her body.

A couple of days later Esther suffered the bedclothes being ripped off the bed. The bedclothes also hit another member of the household who left, vowing never to return again.

Above Esther’s bed writing appeared on the wall: ‘Esther, you are mine to kill’. Plaster flew off the wall, landing near a doctor called in to tend to Esther; this continued unabated for two hours. Eventually Esther told her family about the sexual attack. When it was suggested that this strain was the cause of the ‘paranormal’ activities, the poltergeist responded with a loud banging that seemed to suggest that it agreed.

The Poltergeist became dangerous shortly after, it produced lighted matches falling around the room causing small fires. Neighbors became alarmed at the potential damage to their property and made it clear they wanted Esther sent away. She went to stay with a neighbor, but the activity followed her there. An oven door came off it’s hinges, and metal objects where drawn to her as if she were a magnet. The neighbor asked Esther to leave.

The following year, 1879, magician Walther Hubbell investigated the hauntings for his book. The poltergeist obliged him: throwing his umbrella up in the air, throwing a carving knife at him and throwing his bag away. It also hit him with a chair. Hubbell tested the poltergeist by asking details such as the date of coins in his pockets. Through rapping noises the poltergeist apparently got the right answers.

Esther was further attacked, with pins being stuck in her hand, and more fires broke out. She eventually went to stay with some friends and the activities stopped.’

The second is an account of a farmhouse plagued by poltergeist activity. This was recorded in the Annales Fuldenses and was written in 858 BC (yes really!):

‘A family living at a farmhouse near Bingen on the Rhine suffered a poltergeist that threw stones, vibrated walls caused fires and burnt crops. It also exposed the farmers sexual relationship with the daughter of one of his foremen. The farmer seemed to be the focus and the activity followed him wherever he went until other people refused to have him anywhere near their homes.’

So, two accounts of alleged supernatural forces at work? Or is the explanation more down to earth and rational?

It would appear that the catalyst in these two particular cases are of a sexual nature. Pent up aggression that builds up and then is released in some form or other? In the case of Esther, aggressive activity was witnessed toward Walther Hubbell. Could that be resentment towards him because she was sexually attacked by a man?

The point I am trying to make is stress, trauma, whatever you want to call it. I have already stated elsewhere on the board recently that people dismiss all too easily the ‘human agent’ side of poltergeists, even though they tend to follow predictable paths, and eventually fade away. We do not give enough credit to exactly what the human body and the human brain can do under duress. A good example of the brain ruling the body is a common thing we all experience at some point throughout life, like falling in love. That feeling of light-headedness, maybe you start to sweat, your heart rate increases. Nothing supernatural about that, why does it seem so difficult to accept that maybe there is some kind of energy output that we just don’t fully understand yet?

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The Only Ghosts Are Those in the Back of Your Head Body Post 2

The point I am trying to make is stress, trauma, whatever you want to call it. I have already stated elsewhere on the board recently that people dismiss all too easily the ‘human agent’ side of poltergeists, even though they tend to follow predictable paths, and eventually fade away.

Two things you're missing here:

1. Ghosts are notorious for having their mortal deaths linked to such trauma, stress, and agression. It is only logical for such spirits to be attracted to the phycic energy of living people under the same types of tramatic conditions as they felt in life, or perhaps right before their deaths. If I was a ghost of someone who was brutally strangled to death by their father and buried under the cellar stairs, I wouldn't nessecarilly relate to a very happy optimistic person unsure.gif

2. People don't nessecarilly "dismiss" the idea of the human agent, they just cannot believe someone they've known and loved as part of the family could be partly to blame for the disturbing events. If I knew my cute little never-hurt-a-fly brother was the human agent I wouldn't believe it either. yes.gif Also, I believe the idea of the human agent at times is actually overemphasized (See the "*" further down in the post).

We do not give enough credit to exactly what the human body and the human brain can do under duress.

This is true, the human body is capable of unimaginable feats... such as the mother who lifted a car off her baby to save its life, or Yuri Gellar and his amazing mind abilities such as levitating ordinary objects and very accurate predictions.

However, such an explanation can be ruled out here because the majority of poltergeist incidents continue to happen after the "Agent" has either moved out of the home, or left for a long enough period of time, and the house continues to undergo the same poltergeist disturbances.

*Here I think the idea of the human agent is overemphasized actually, because there are plenty of cases when poltergeist activity targets multiple members of the home directly, and others where it doesn't seem that anyone is being directly targeted. Multiple people subconsciously making these things happen, all living under the same roof? Doubtful. One powerful spirit assaulting everyone equally, easier to understand I say.

If anything is in support of PK from the human agent, perhaps the theory of Steven King's horror story,"Rose Red" applies; where a psychically active person stimulates or amplifies already present spirits in the home. This theory could potentially fit a number of poltergeist cases, especially ones involveing children agents connected to perhaps,"imaginary friends" which are actually the deceased.

In any case, Poltergeists and PK are both very far from being completely explained, and as thus sometimes independant paranormal cases can be mislabeled or misunderstood; what is an obvious case of PK to one parapsychologist is a dangerous Poltergeist haunting to another.

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Hoagy has been granted a few extra days to post. thumbsup.gif

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Don't go speaking ill of the dead...

..they are closer than you know...

Two things you're missing here:

1. Ghosts are notorious for having their mortal deaths linked to such trauma, stress, and agression.

Not necessarily, no. There maybe a likelihood that a violent trauma could be a key factor in ‘ghosts/apparitions’ etc, but there are probably just as many, if not more cases recorded throughout history of spirits of people who loved someone/somewhere so much that they did’nt want to leave. Have we not heard of stories where a resident ghost did things such as tidying up, or maybe comforted a child (like a grandparent)? I think to classify any kind of ghost as the result of trauma alone is quite an assumption.

It is only logical for such spirits to be attracted to the phycic energy of living people under the same types of tramatic conditions as they felt in life, or perhaps right before their deaths.

But don’t we all go through traumatic stress at some point in our lives? Puberty? Surgery? Divorce? Loss of a loved one? Terminal illness? Does this mean that we are all open to the supernatural? Time to start worrying I guess…

2. People don't nessecarilly "dismiss" the idea of the human agent, they just cannot believe someone they've known and loved as part of the family could be partly to blame for the disturbing events.

Ignorance is no excuse. Tell me then, why in most alleged ‘poltergeist’ cases, (with the exception of a couple of well known ones such as the Bell Witch), that the phenomena generally dissipates after 6 months?

However, such an explanation can be ruled out here because the majority of poltergeist incidents continue to happen after the "Agent" has either moved out of the home, or left for a long enough period of time, and the house continues to undergo the same poltergeist disturbances.

I have to disagree. There are more than a few records of the phenomena following the subject around, to the point where nobody would help them because of the problems that were being caused. Even if it did occur while the ‘agent’ was not there, whos to say that it is not just residual ‘energy’ left from the person. We know that energy cannot be destroyed, it transforms into other things, like a battery for example. Like I stated before, this maybe just something perfectly normal that has’nt been studied to the full potential, yet.

*Here I think the idea of the human agent is overemphasized actually, because there are plenty of cases when poltergeist activity targets multiple members of the home directly, and others where it doesn't seem that anyone is being directly targeted.

What does that prove? If the human agent was a pubescent teenager, the angst could be targeted to numerous people. If it was stress that had built up before being ‘discharged’ at one person, or ‘target’ (like the case I offered about the girl who was sexually assaulted), then is it so hard to understand why in other cases it is only one person?

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Dang Poltergeist got inta da chickencoop again! Body Post 3

But don’t we all go through traumatic stress at some point in our lives? Puberty? Surgery? Divorce? Loss of a loved one? Terminal illness? Does this mean that we are all open to the supernatural? Time to start worrying I guess…

This argument doesn't support either of us very well. Shouldn't everyone be creating poltergeist phenomenon subcounsciously with PK then? rolleyes.gif The fact that everyone experiences stressful points in their life should indicate that poltergeist phenomenon are site specific and linked to spiritual residue rather then subconscious PK. wink2.gif Otherwise poltergeists would be popping up everywhere all the time nonstop!

Not necessarily, no. There maybe a likelihood that a violent trauma could be a key factor in ‘ghosts/apparitions’ etc, but there are probably just as many, if not more cases recorded throughout history of spirits of people who loved someone/somewhere so much that they did’nt want to leave. Have we not heard of stories where a resident ghost did things such as tidying up, or maybe comforted a child (like a grandparent)? I think to classify any kind of ghost as the result of trauma alone is quite an assumption.

Yeah thats true,... but poltergeist cases are usually specified by their violent nature towards people. To see a kindly ghost isn't a poltergeist case, that's seeing a ghost. Having loud noises combined with ectoplasm, combined with things being thrown around the house and people being beaten by invisible hands usually means its a poltergeist.

Poltergeist cases typically are bad. They either start fires, cause nuisiances, and physically attack people. They don't want to tuck you in at night. crying.gif

Ignorance is no excuse.

First off, that's not an excuse, its the truth. I asked my dad today what a poltergeist is, he thought it was a type of wild bird. laugh.gif I would say the majority of the public doesn't know the specifics of poltergeist phenomenon, including the idea of a human agent.

Tell me then, why in most alleged ‘poltergeist’ cases, (with the exception of a couple of well known ones such as the Bell Witch), that the phenomena generally dissipates after 6 months?

I'm sorry, I don't know what you're implying by this. Please explain. dontgetit.gif

I have to disagree. There are more than a few records of the phenomena following the subject around, to the point where nobody would help them because of the problems that were being caused. Even if it did occur while the ‘agent’ was not there, whos to say that it is not just residual ‘energy’ left from the person. We know that energy cannot be destroyed, it transforms into other things, like a battery for example. Like I stated before, this maybe just something perfectly normal that has’nt been studied to the full potential, yet.

By claiming disturbances that occur after the human agent has left are caused by "residual energy" would classify that place as more of a Residual Haunting them anything. Residual hauntings aren't nessecarily linked to spirits, but more to events... typically stressful/traumatic. Residual Hauntings are ultimately harmless to people (unlike the bulk of poltergeist cases) and usually less extreme.

What does that prove? If the human agent was a pubescent teenager, the angst could be targeted to numerous people. If it was stress that had built up before being ‘discharged’ at one person, or ‘target’ (like the case I offered about the girl who was sexually assaulted), then is it so hard to understand why in other cases it is only one person?

You're belief is that poltergiest phenomenon isn't connected to ghosts at all, that instead a human agent, under stress or trauma, subconsciously formulates and directs psychic energy at people within the household.

We don't know enough about poltergeists to prove this theory, because people who are targeted have been different and so far random in all the cases; sometimes the abuser/enemy of the human agent, sometimes their loving family, and sometimes people they don't even know such as psychic investigators that enter the home. We can suggest patterns, but ultimately we don't know. hmm.gif

I am suggesting that Poltergeist phenomenon typically stays at home. yes.gif I would imagine that strong spirits have the ability to latch onto a certain human agents, such as seen in the famous Entity Case, but typically moving away cuts off the disturbances.

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Hunting a Wascally Wabbit (or even a Poltygoost)

This argument doesn't support either of us very well. Shouldn't everyone be creating poltergeist phenomenon subcounsciously with PK then? The fact that everyone experiences stressful points in their life should indicate that poltergeist phenomenon are site specific and linked to spiritual residue rather then subconscious PK. Otherwise poltergeists would be popping up everywhere all the time nonstop!

Site specific? No, not really if you think about it. It would depend on how the trauma mentioned affected the ‘victim’. Otherwise places like schools, hospitals etc would be rife with supernatural activity. It may be a specific level of activity that could trigger off the outburst of ‘kinetic energy’, which would suggest why were not up to the eyeballs in poltergeist phenomena.

Yeah thats true,... but poltergeist cases are usually specified by their violent nature towards people. To see a kindly ghost isn't a poltergeist case, that's seeing a ghost. Having loud noises combined with ectoplasm, combined with things being thrown around the house and people being beaten by invisible hands usually means its a poltergeist.

Poltergeist cases typically are bad. They either start fires, cause nuisiances, and physically attack people. They don't want to tuck you in at night.

There are’nt actually that many recorded cases of poltergeists that really do any harm. They are more just annoying, moving objects, opening and closing doors etc etc. There are, as I believe we already mentioned earlier, even less recorded cases of fatality resulting from a ‘poltergeist’, (the ones that do have fatalities are always the same stories regurgitated over and over). If these forces are supposedly from ‘beyond’ why do they not maim or kill more often? They have no law to answer to? What is to gain from just annoying someone? Which suggests to me again that it is a human element who is resentful in some way and ‘letting rip’ so to speak.

First off, that's not an excuse, its the truth. I asked my dad today what a poltergeist is, he thought it was a type of wild bird. I would say the majority of the public doesn't know the specifics of poltergeist phenomenon, including the idea of a human agent.

I think you maybe giving too little credit to joe public. Especially with the amount of TV coverage and press coverage the paranormal can get, I think you would be surprised. Ask anyone what a ghost is, I am sure they will be able to tell you in some reasonable degree, so they will probably already heard of poltergeists, whether through reading, the media, or Steven Spielberg LoL!

BTW, if you ever get that wild bird, hook me up, I would like my own Poltergeist!

Tell me then, why in most alleged ‘poltergeist’ cases, (with the exception of a couple of well known ones such as the Bell Witch), that the phenomena generally dissipates after 6 months?

I'm sorry, I don't know what you're implying by this. Please explain.

While I was doing my research, nearly every case I read about mentioned that the total duration of the ‘outbreak’ lasted for about 6 months, in fact I have quite a few books who make that very statement based on investigation and reports from the ‘victims’ do ghosts get bored, or do the real people?

By claiming disturbances that occur after the human agent has left are caused by "residual energy" would classify that place as more of a Residual Haunting them anything. Residual hauntings aren't nessecarily linked to spirits, but more to events... typically stressful/traumatic. Residual Hauntings are ultimately harmless to people (unlike the bulk of poltergeist cases) and usually less extreme.

So you are agreeing then that poltergeists may not be spirits, but residual hauntings that are’nt necessarily linked to spirits? Again you suggest that poltergeists may be harmful to people. There is just not enough evidence to prove that they are nothing more than annoying…

What does that prove? If the human agent was a pubescent teenager, the angst could be targeted to numerous people. If it was stress that had built up before being ‘discharged’ at one person, or ‘target’ (like the case I offered about the girl who was sexually assaulted), then is it so hard to understand why in other cases it is only one person?

You're belief is that poltergiest phenomenon isn't connected to ghosts at all, that instead a human agent, under stress or trauma, subconsciously formulates and directs psychic energy at people within the household.

We don't know enough about poltergeists to prove this theory, because people who are targeted have been different and so far random in all the cases; sometimes the abuser/enemy of the human agent, sometimes their loving family, and sometimes people they don't even know such as psychic investigators that enter the home. We can suggest patterns, but ultimately we don't know.

I am suggesting that Poltergeist phenomenon typically stays at home. I would imagine that strong spirits have the ability to latch onto a certain human agents, such as seen in the famous Entity Case, but typically moving away cuts off the disturbances.

Again not necessarily true, I have also read about phenomena that has followed a particular ‘focus’ wherever they went, in fact the made for TV movie ‘The Haunting’ which was allegedly based on a real case also detailed phenomena that was not only directed at random people, but even followed them when they would go out on family outings.

And likewise we just don’t have enough evidence that proves that poltergeists are the discarnate and disgruntled spirits of people who want to annoy the living. Is certain spirits are that strong, why are’nt we hearing more about it? Why would a spirit that is strong enough want to make some doors and windows rattle? Why not do something truly spectacular?

Or is it because the person who is fabricating the story does’nt want to get found out????

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Put on ice as Monkeyburd is on vacation...have fun! original.gif

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Thanks Lottie on allowing me some extra time. It was definately a good Independance Day. thumbsup.gif

Pick up that Accordian, and Let's PolkaGeist! Body Post 4

Site specific? No, not really if you think about it. It would depend on how the trauma mentioned affected the ‘victim’. Otherwise places like schools, hospitals etc would be rife with supernatural activity. It may be a specific level of activity that could trigger off the outburst of ‘kinetic energy’, which would suggest why were not up to the eyeballs in poltergeist phenomena.

1. There are actually a lot of Haunted Hospitals around... Link1 Link2 Link3

2. By "Site Specific" I am referring to the idea that certain areas are more likely to be inhabited by higher restless spirit/Paranormal Energies activity; kinda like the whole,"Indian Burial Ground" idea. There is a ryme and reason to where and when poltergeist cases emerge and the power/essence of the spirit involved. yes.gif

There are’nt actually that many recorded cases of poltergeists that really do any harm. They are more just annoying, moving objects, opening and closing doors etc etc. There are, as I believe we already mentioned earlier, even less recorded cases of fatality resulting from a ‘poltergeist’, (the ones that do have fatalities are always the same stories regurgitated over and over). If these forces are supposedly from ‘beyond’ why do they not maim or kill more often? They have no law to answer to? What is to gain from just annoying someone? Which suggests to me again that it is a human element who is resentful in some way and ‘letting rip’ so to speak.

In accuality, annoying poltergeists and violent poltergeists are usually one in the same. Polter-Research has shown a very definate pattern in our otherwise chaotic understanding of Poltergeists:

Energy

Poltergeist energy is built up over time, then goes dormant and starts over again. It is not continuos like that of a regular ghost. Poltergeists can become dangerous to the living, inflicting both mental and physical terror sometimes. The poltergeist go through 5 stages of progression and then a period of quiet before starting over again. At each stage the energy levels increase making the poltergeist stronger. The duration of each stage can vary from days to years depending on the poltergeist.

The Stages of a Poltergeist

1: Senses - The activity mainly revolves around the five senses of the human body.

Cold spots, strange noises, hearing footsteps, pets running from rooms, feeling of being watched.

2: Communication - Strange noises and smells are more easily discernible and direct. - Whispers,moans,breezes in closed areas,marks on floors or walls.

3: Physical - The poltergeist make there presence known. - Appliances turning on/off, electric lights flashing, invisible hands touching people, doors opening and closing by themselves, strange knocks at doors and windows, windows opening/closing.

4: Tricks - It might seem like a harmless and playful entity, but it is really gathering knowledge of what people consider frightening, which it will use to inflict terror in the next stage and derive its energy from the fright. - Moving objects, flying objects, objects disappearing and reappearing elsewhere, shaking furniture, appearing as frightening entities, creating visions or illusions, speaking in ordering tones; windows, mirrors or other objects breaking for no reason.

5: Danger - The poltergeist has reached its highest energy point, and should be considered dangerous. Violent and threatening actions begin. After this stage, the poltergeist will go dormant and then begin the cycle again at the first stage. - Biting, slapping or punching people; animating objects; blood on walls, floors and ceilings, fires, attacks by unseen forces, flying knives or sharp objects, heavy objects falling. Threatening writings or visual signs of danger; onset of unknown medical illness. blink.gif

All quoted from Here

And there are plenty of cases out there involving physical harm and immediate danger... The Bell Witch, The Einfield Poltergeist, and the famous Entity Case in which a decidedly male entity abused and sexually assaulted a woman and her son.

More Dangerous Poltergeist Activity reported...

In 1890, a policeman in England who came to a home to investigate a poltergeist claimed he was attacked by his own billy club. A priest who was called in to exorcise the house was struck about the face and neck by his own Bible!

In Romania in 1925 a young girl had her face scratched, her arms bitten and her hair pulled by a poltergeist.

In 1962, in Indianapolis, Indiana, a family claimed they were attacked by a poltergeist in their home who scratched and bit them. An investigator at the house witnessed the grandmother being attacked. The old woman cried out to the ghost to stop biting her. The investigator then found fresh wounds on the woman's chest and arms.

In the incident at the law office in Germany in 1967, which was described here last week, a team of investigators arrived on the scene. As the lead investigator discussed his theories with other members of his team, things turned nasty at the office: objects began falling off shelves, and paintings hanging on the walls began swinging wildly. Drawers opened by themselves and some flew all the way out of their cabinets. One large filing cabinet weighing over 400 pounds began to bounce away from the wall.

From Here

While I was doing my research, nearly every case I read about mentioned that the total duration of the ‘outbreak’ lasted for about 6 months, in fact I have quite a few books who make that very statement based on investigation and reports from the ‘victims’ do ghosts get bored, or do the real people?
Ok, I understand what you're trying to say now...

1. Poltergeist cases are strange acceptions in the world of the paranormal, sort of like an entity/spirit dependant on energy fluxes and cycles. I would imagine 6 months is the typical enrgy cycle for one of these entities; weaker ones lasting shorter periods of time, and more violent ones lasting longer. 6 months is more like the average time period of all the polter-cases out there. yes.gif

* 2. To say that "People get bored before ghosts do" isn't really helping your argument, if anything its supporting the idea that all poltergeist cases are hoaxed by people within the household. hmm.gif

So you are agreeing then that poltergeists may not be spirits, but residual hauntings that are’nt necessarily linked to spirits? Again you suggest that poltergeists may be harmful to people. There is just not enough evidence to prove that they are nothing more than annoying…

See the fruity colored Poltergeist Energy Stages above w00t.gif

Again not necessarily true, I have also read about phenomena that has followed a particular ‘focus’ wherever they went, in fact the made for TV movie ‘The Haunting’ which was allegedly based on a real case also detailed phenomena that was not only directed at random people, but even followed them when they would go out on family outings.

Poltergeists that come with you on family outtings didn't appear on previous family outings did they? They originate in the home, or other stable place first. I'm thinking Poltergeists are a combination of Spirits tied in with energy, representing their intelligence, but also their different levels of strength and control.

And likewise we just don’t have enough evidence that proves that poltergeists are the discarnate and disgruntled spirits of people who want to annoy the living. Is certain spirits are that strong, why are’nt we hearing more about it? Why would a spirit that is strong enough want to make some doors and windows rattle? Why not do something truly spectacular?

They are very strong, but I would imagine the afterlife or what ever experience they're going through isn't so easy to understand. Trapped between this world and the next with strange energies phasing in and out all the time... I don't think I could take being a poltergeist for too long... wacko.gif Let alone try and "do" something amazing with my powers.

Or is it because the person who is fabricating the story does’nt want to get found out????

Woah woah woah! Did Hoagy just change the entire tune of his argument? laugh.gif After some twelve paragraphs of insisting Poltergeists are Subconscious Energy Manipulation by the Human Agent I have a slight inclination you're relying on the idea that Poltergeists are hoaxed a lot of the time instead.. (as also seen above by the big * )

rolleyes.gif Anyways, yes there have been people who have tried to hoax there way into the history books by having a fantastical poltergeist tale or haunting, and there always will be. You just have to go by the clear evidence and facts of all these cases...

Many famous disturbances have well documented police eyewitnesses, multiple witnesses, physical marks recorded moments after an attack, photographs of levitating objects, and other such logical evidence.

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(second call) Hoagy, Your post please original.gif

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Oh my GOTH! We have a Poltergoose!

honk honk

1. There are actually a lot of Haunted Hospitals around... Link1 Link2 Link3

I did’nt say that there were’nt hospitals with hauntings, just that if this was a site specific occurance, would’nt every hospital have a tale to tell?

2. By "Site Specific" I am referring to the idea that certain areas are more likely to be inhabited by higher restless spirit/Paranormal Energies activity; kinda like the whole,"Indian Burial Ground" idea. There is a ryme and reason to where and when poltergeist cases emerge and the power/essence of the spirit involved.

Ah, I see what you’re saying, but that’s kinda basic paranormal knowledge about certain areas maybe being more prone to hauntings (battlefields etc). I really don’t see how this applies to poltergeists, as they are obviously more random than say the Battle of Edgehill, a conflict from the English Civil war that supposedly is re-enacted in the sky over the battle site every December 25th.

Energy

Poltergeist energy is built up over time, then goes dormant and starts over again. It is not continuos like that of a regular ghost. Poltergeists can become dangerous to the living, inflicting both mental and physical terror sometimes. The poltergeist go through 5 stages of progression and then a period of quiet before starting over again. At each stage the energy levels increase making the poltergeist stronger. The duration of each stage can vary from days to years depending on the poltergeist.

Energy? I have to admit, that is the first time I have ever heard about poltergeist energy building up over time, to be released and then become ‘dormant’????

If it requires energy, where does it aquire the energy from? You say that it ‘derives’ its energy from fright, so where does it get it’s initial spark to come into being? Does it just appear out of the ether and decide to haunt someone???

The Stages of a Poltergeist

1: Senses - The activity mainly revolves around the five senses of the human body.

Cold spots, strange noises, hearing footsteps, pets running from rooms, feeling of being watched.

2: Communication - Strange noises and smells are more easily discernible and direct. - Whispers,moans,breezes in closed areas,marks on floors or walls.

3: Physical - The poltergeist make there presence known. - Appliances turning on/off, electric lights flashing, invisible hands touching people, doors opening and closing by themselves, strange knocks at doors and windows, windows opening/closing.

4: Tricks - It might seem like a harmless and playful entity, but it is really gathering knowledge of what people consider frightening, which it will use to inflict terror in the next stage and derive its energy from the fright. - Moving objects, flying objects, objects disappearing and reappearing elsewhere, shaking furniture, appearing as frightening entities, creating visions or illusions, speaking in ordering tones; windows, mirrors or other objects breaking for no reason.

OK I can agree on points 1,2 and 3 (from a skeptical point of view most of these could be explained). Point 4 I have a problem with. Are you seriously saying that a poltergeist is taking notes on what scares people???? Why would any ‘entity’ capable of such feats have to do such a thing?? Wow, this is really opening my eyes!

Your website also said:

Poltergeist theories suggest that poltergeists are mass forms of energy that a living person unknowingly controls, usually through a form of passive psychokinesis resulting from severe physical or psychic trauma. In some extreme cases, poltergeists have been linked to demons

And also:

Poltergeists can be triggered by a living person's trauma in any area at any time. They can travel.

And there are plenty of cases out there involving physical harm and immediate danger... The Bell Witch, The Einfield Poltergeist, and the famous Entity Case in which a decidedly male entity abused and sexually assaulted a woman and her son.

OK, forget these three cases, which are the ones always used as examples and give us something that’s less ‘famous’.

More Dangerous Poltergeist Activity reported...

In 1890, a policeman in England who came to a home to investigate a poltergeist claimed he was attacked by his own billy club.

The policeman could’ve just as easily struck himself accidentally, and put it down to what was happening, it was not unknown to see a cop back in those days swinging their billy club round by the cord to which the kept around their wrist…that sounds kinda wrong....lol!)

In Romania in 1925 a young girl had her face scratched, her arms bitten and her hair pulled by a poltergeist.

There is’nt anything in the above passages that I have’nt heard from cases where the ‘focus’ created the wounds themselves.

Ok, I understand what you're trying to say now...

1. Poltergeist cases are strange acceptions in the world of the paranormal, sort of like an entity/spirit dependant on energy fluxes and cycles. I would imagine 6 months is the typical enrgy cycle for one of these entities; weaker ones lasting shorter periods of time, and more violent ones lasting longer. 6 months is more like the average time period of all the polter-cases out there.

I quote:

‘Poltergeist activity tends to fade away after six months, though there are, as we have seen, cases that can differ from this general rule. Attempts to banish or eliminate poltergeists ahead of this period of time seem to work, though it is equally as possible that the effects would have worn off anyway.’

(taken from the book ‘Ghostwatching’ by John Spencer and Tony Wells)

* 2. To say that "People get bored before ghosts do" isn't really helping your argument, if anything its supporting the idea that all poltergeist cases are hoaxed by people within the household.

And why not? Why would’nt people get in on the ‘act’ to get a bit of notoriety???

So you are agreeing then that poltergeists may not be spirits, but residual hauntings that are’nt necessarily linked to spirits? Again you suggest that poltergeists may be harmful to people. There is just not enough evidence to prove that they are nothing more than annoying…

See the fruity colored Poltergeist Energy Stages above

See my replies to them!

Again not necessarily true, I have also read about phenomena that has followed a particular ‘focus’ wherever they went, in fact the made for TV movie ‘The Haunting’ which was allegedly based on a real case also detailed phenomena that was not only directed at random people, but even followed them when they would go out on family outings.

Poltergeists that come with you on family outtings didn't appear on previous family outings did they? They originate in the home, or other stable place first. I'm thinking Poltergeists are a combination of Spirits tied in with energy, representing their intelligence, but also their different levels of strength and control.

Like getting the flu… sometimes it just kicks in, doesn’t matter where or when. So please explain more about levels of strength and control, as this sounds to me like there is an organized structure to Poltergeist society! laugh.gif

They are very strong, but I would imagine the afterlife or what ever experience they're going through isn't so easy to understand. Trapped between this world and the next with strange energies phasing in and out all the time... I don't think I could take being a poltergeist for too long... Let alone try and "do" something amazing with my powers.

So instead of trying to figure out what was going on you would just scare people?? huh.gif This is a pretty ‘out there’ statement to make, how do you really know what their situation is or what is ‘beyond this world’. At least I am trying to get a straightforward view on it. happy.gif

Or is it because the person who is fabricating the story does’nt want to get found out????

Woah woah woah! Did Hoagy just change the entire tune of his argument? After some twelve paragraphs of insisting Poltergeists are Subconscious Energy Manipulation by the Human Agent I have a slight inclination you're relying on the idea that Poltergeists are hoaxed a lot of the time instead.. (as also seen above by the big * ) QUOTE

Not really, MB, the human agent could either be a ‘battery’ for these energy out bursts, or just an out and out liar. We all know that hauntings can be hoaxed, theres probably as many of those stories throughout history as the real deal. Tricks can be played to convince the unwitting bystander (and in actual fact there where instances in the Enfield case where the 2 girls were caught red handed, because they were trying desperately to convince people of what was going on). The percentage that are ‘real’ are where I come in with the ‘human agent’ theory. These ideas are more believable and understandable to me as a skeptic than some discarnate entity.

Anyways, yes there have been people who have tried to hoax there way into the history books by having a fantastical poltergeist tale or haunting, and there always will be. You just have to go by the clear evidence and facts of all these cases...

Many famous disturbances have well documented police eyewitnesses, multiple witnesses, physical marks recorded moments after an attack, photographs of levitating objects, and other such logical evidence.

Indeed they have, but what were the concrete conclusions of these accounts?? Did they come to the conclusion they were being hussled by great Aunt Polly from the other side or did they look beyond that and look at the circumstances from a psychological point of view? For me to be convinced a poltergeist is the real deal (other than witnessing it all by myself first hand) I would exhaust the psychological aspects first (which any reputable ghost hunter should do). Once the logical has been exhausted, well then, and only then, would I start considering the illogical. So far this debate has offered to good sides to a story, but I’m still not convinced. wink2.gif

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Ever tried to explain yourself to a Cockroach? Body Post 5

I did’nt say that there were’nt hospitals with hauntings, just that if this was a site specific occurance, would’nt every hospital have a tale to tell?

Ah, I see what you’re saying, but that’s kinda basic paranormal knowledge about certain areas maybe being more prone to hauntings (battlefields etc). I really don’t see how this applies to poltergeists, as they are obviously more random than say the Battle of Edgehill, a conflict from the English Civil war that supposedly is re-enacted in the sky over the battle site every December 25th.

C'mon now, to rely on that statement, that therefor, "ALL" hospitals should have a haunting is ridiculous. Does every old house in the world have hauntings going on? Does every ancient battlefield in the world have ghosts? Absolutely not. To try and disprove my statement by holding it to an impossible standard (that ALL hospitals everywhere should be haunted) is foolish. disgust.gif

Poltergeist cases are a bit "random"... random in the sense that we don't understand the ways they work in certain aspects.

Energy? I have to admit, that is the first time I have ever heard about poltergeist energy building up over time, to be released and then become ‘dormant’????

First time seeing this information? huh.gif Hmmmmm... but it seems to be everyhwere these days!

Link #1

Link #2

Link #3

Link #4

Link #5 and I could go on and on and on....

If it requires energy, where does it aquire the energy from? You say that it ‘derives’ its energy from fright, so where does it get it’s initial spark to come into being? Does it just appear out of the ether and decide to haunt someone???

What energy source does it run off of? Fright? I certainly never suggested that.

To be honest I have no idea what kind of energy poltergeist spirits would be drawn to. We can only make educated guesses based on what certain pieces of evidence have shown.

I would imagine the deceased would initially be drawn to the "lifeforce" of a living person, thus the need for the human agent. They could also run off of bioelectricity from that agent, or even nonliving energies such as electical appliances which have been known to be effected by such disturbances.

OK I can agree on points 1,2 and 3 (from a skeptical point of view most of these could be explained). Point 4 I have a problem with. Are you seriously saying that a poltergeist is taking notes on what scares people???? Why would any ‘entity’ capable of such feats have to do such a thing?? Wow, this is really opening my eyes!

Perhaps not exactly "taking notes on what scares people" but more like testing the household for their level of stress and trauma. That's the idea that's implied.

And why would it do this? It's guarenteeing it has a supple haunt with abundant stress/trauma energy to sustain itself. grin2.gif

Your website also said:

Poltergeist theories suggest that poltergeists are mass forms of energy that a living person unknowingly controls, usually through a form of passive psychokinesis resulting from severe physical or psychic trauma. In some extreme cases, poltergeists have been linked to demons

And also:

Poltergeists can be triggered by a living person's trauma in any area at any time. They can travel.

Yeah, my website did say that didn't it? You're very perceptive... Oh wait every other poltergeist website in the world also offers this same tidbit of information, and everytime it starts out like this:

geek.gif Poltergeist theories suggest .....

Just a theory....

OK, forget these three cases, which are the ones always used as examples and give us something that’s less ‘famous’.

Yes, let's forget the three most important and intruiging Poltergeist cases ever recorded in history to focus on the real topic at hand,.. me being right. laugh.gif

The policeman could’ve just as easily struck himself accidentally, and put it down to what was happening, it was not unknown to see a cop back in those days swinging their billy club round by the cord to which the kept around their wrist…that sounds kinda wrong....lol!)

There is’nt anything in the above passages that I have’nt heard from cases where the ‘focus’ created the wounds themselves.

*And what cases are those Hoags? rolleyes.gif

I quote:

‘Poltergeist activity tends to fade away after six months, though there are, as we have seen, cases that can differ from this general rule. Attempts to banish or eliminate poltergeists ahead of this period of time seem to work, though it is equally as possible that the effects would have worn off anyway.’

(taken from the book ‘Ghostwatching’ by John Spencer and Tony Wells)

mellow.gif

This does nothing but restate what I just said with a famous author in place.

Like getting the flu… sometimes it just kicks in, doesn’t matter where or when. So please explain more about levels of strength and control, as this sounds to me like there is an organized structure to Poltergeist society! 

By "Strength and control" I am referring to the 5 stage energy cycle I posted last time. The different levels represent their change in energy and therefor the control over the household and it's living inhabitants at the time.

So instead of trying to figure out what was going on you would just scare people??  This is a pretty ‘out there’ statement to make, how do you really know what their situation is or what is ‘beyond this world’. At least I am trying to get a straightforward view on it. 

Have you ever had trouble trying to communicate with someone speaking a different language? Our gestures and facial expressions mean completely different things in their culture and their language... as theres mean completely different things to us.

This is what I imagine would happen with poltergeist spirits, in attempts to communicate or understand their "hosts" it only comes out as annoying, frightening, or even harmful disturbances. They don't think or act like humans do anymore, they follow a different languge and a different set of "rules".

And thats great that you want to get a straightfoward logical view on this matter. I'm saying that they don't follow along with human reasoning too well though, and to hold them to that standard is foolish.

"Have you ever tried explaining yourself to a cockroach?"

~John Keel, the Mothman Prophecies

Not really, MB, the human agent could either be a ‘battery’ for these energy out bursts, or just an out and out liar.

Yeah, I'd say thats pretty much two completely seperate and different things. One hand suggests the exsistance of subconscious PK energy fluctuating all over the place from an unbeknowing traumatized human, and the other suggests no energy, no pk, no trauma, and all done as a hoax or jest in attempts of publicity. They are both increadibly different and seperate ideas. rolleyes.gif

We all know that hauntings can be hoaxed, theres probably as many of those stories throughout history as the real deal. Tricks can be played to convince the unwitting bystander (and in actual fact there where instances in the Enfield case where the 2 girls were caught red handed, because they were trying desperately to convince people of what was going on). The percentage that are ‘real’ are where I come in with the ‘human agent’ theory. These ideas are more believable and understandable to me as a skeptic than some discarnate entity.

As a skeptic, I'd think you'd be more inclined to back the "All Polter-Cases are Hoaxed" theory 100% then deal with any of the energy/human agent ones. rolleyes.gif I'm sure you can find instances where all poltergiest cases have been hoaxed... *

Regardless, the whole subconscious PK idea is still only a theory, like everything involved with poltergeists it seems. The discarnate ghost idea and the subconscious PK are the two leading theories in understanding the poltergeist phenomenon. I am siding with the idea of confusing energy driven spirits because of what evidence I have seen in such cases, even if they are the top 10% of the intense cases...(Malicious attacks, actually enties seen or witnessed, letters and messages written in blood, voices directed at people in the household). I think these top cases show the meaty center of what drives the poltergeist phenomenon, and shows exactly what they are capable of. If all the annoying 6 month cases reached their full potential (stage 5) I am sure they would display such terrifying effects as well.

Indeed they have, but what were the concrete conclusions of these accounts?? Did they come to the conclusion they were being hussled by great Aunt Polly from the other side or did they look beyond that and look at the circumstances from a psychological point of view? For me to be convinced a poltergeist is the real deal (other than witnessing it all by myself first hand) I would exhaust the psychological aspects first (which any reputable ghost hunter should do). Once the logical has been exhausted, well then, and only then, would I start considering the illogical.

Subconscious PK messing with things all over the house is in no way more logical then the incarnate ghost theory. Both are unproven, both suggest energies going on that little is understood about, and both attempt to explain forces which no one has yet to understand in partial, let alone in full.

So far this debate has offered t(w)o good sides to a story, but I’m still not convinced.  wink2.gif 

The Judges is where I'm concerned.... happy.gif

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Posted (edited)

Hoagy has been granted extra time to post.

Edited by Disinterested

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Yikes!

C'mon now, to rely on that statement, that therefor, "ALL" hospitals should have a haunting is ridiculous. Does every old house in the world have hauntings going on? Does every ancient battlefield in the world have ghosts? Absolutely not. To try and disprove my statement by holding it to an impossible standard (that ALL hospitals everywhere should be haunted) is foolish.

Ah, name calling now eh? lol! tongue.gif I wasnt relying on the statement MB, I was merely telling you what I was getting from YOUR comment happy.gif Old houses and battlefields do have a rep for being haunted yes, I did'nt say that they would ALL be haunted I said that sites like this were more PRONE to being 'haunted' geddit? Older places with more history and all that? anyhoo...

Poltergeist cases are a bit "random"... random in the sense that we don't understand the ways they work in certain aspects.

Energy? I have to admit, that is the first time I have ever heard about poltergeist energy building up over time, to be released and then become ‘dormant’????

First time seeing this information? Hmmmmm... but it seems to be everyhwere these days!

Link #1

Link #2

Link #3

Link #4

Link #5 and I could go on and on and on....

Yep, we could throw webites at each other all day, at the end of the day though, does this give us any indication that these people are authorities on the subject? no! they are in the same boat as you and me...

But, in accordance, I quote:Poltergeist activity tends to occur around a single person called an agent or a focus (typically a prepubescent female). Almost seventy years of research by the Rhine Research Center (Raleigh-Durham, NC USA) has led to the hypothesis among parapsychologists that the "poltergeist effect" is a form of psychokinesis generated by a living human mind (that of the agent). According to researchers at the Rhine Center, the "poltergeist effect" is the outward manifestation of psychological trauma. Skeptics believe that the phenomena are hoaxes perpetrated by the agent. Indeed, many poltergeist agents have been caught by investigators in the act of throwing objects. A few of them later confessed to faking. However, parapsychologists investigating poltergeists think that most occurrences are real, and the agents cheat only when they are subsequently caught cheating. The longevity and consistency between poltergeist stories (the earliest one details the raining of stones and bed shaking in ancient Egypt) has left the matter open for debate within the parapsychology community. - taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poltergeist

and also an interesting old skool thread from this very site: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...php/t10204.html

or this too: On the other side of the mistaken ghost sightings are the fraudulent reports. Individuals may fake a ghost sighting for any number of reasons. Maybe they are just trying to have fun and see if they can trick someone. Or this may be their way of getting attention. It could be a publicity stunt. It could even be a case of mental illness or schizophrenia on the part of the witness, which is not fraudulent. It's important for a ghost hunter to keep in mind that there are people out there with the motives and technological know-how to produce a believable, fake ghost sighting. There have been cases of people faking poltergeist activities with houses that have been entirely wired by their owners from basement to attic to produce ghostly lights and sounds in any room on command. If the ghost hunter completes a thorough examination for logical explanations a fraudulent haunting should be easy to discover. A seasoned ghost hunter with a couple dozen cases under their belt will learn to develop a second nature for uncovering frauds. - taken from http://www.spirit.4everlasting.com/apparitioins.htm

If it requires energy, where does it aquire the energy from? You say that it ‘derives’ its energy from fright, so where does it get it’s initial spark to come into being? Does it just appear out of the ether and decide to haunt someone???

What energy source does it run off of? Fright? I certainly never suggested that.

Fright, terror, taking notes whatever, let’s not split hairs now! although I do believe you said : 4: Tricks - It might seem like a harmless and playful entity, but it is really gathering knowledge of what people consider frightening, which it will use to inflict terror in the next stage and derive its energy from the fright. - Moving objects, flying objects, objects disappearing and reappearing elsewhere, shaking furniture, appearing as frightening entities, creating visions or illusions, speaking in ordering tones; windows, mirrors or other objects breaking for no reason. Next! tongue.gif

To be honest I have no idea what kind of energy poltergeist spirits would be drawn to. We can only make educated guesses based on what certain pieces of evidence have shown.

I would imagine the deceased would initially be drawn to the "lifeforce" of a living person, thus the need for the human agent. They could also run off of bioelectricity from that agent, or even nonliving energies such as electical appliances which have been known to be effected by such disturbances.

So they have now become a parasite then? interesting theory.

OK I can agree on points 1,2 and 3 (from a skeptical point of view most of these could be explained). Point 4 I have a problem with. Are you seriously saying that a poltergeist is taking notes on what scares people???? Why would any ‘entity’ capable of such feats have to do such a thing?? Wow, this is really opening my eyes!

Perhaps not exactly "taking notes on what scares people" but more like testing the household for their level of stress and trauma. That's the idea that's implied.

And why would it do this? It's guarenteeing it has a supple haunt with abundant stress/trauma energy to sustain itself.

I dunno, the more we go with this theory of yours, it sounds like we should be debating on omnipotent beings! why would something that is as 'intelligent' sounding not move to bigger?, better? more people? they wont because it is a person behind the 'phenomena' as real as you or me.

Your website also said:

Poltergeist theories suggest that poltergeists are mass forms of energy that a living person unknowingly controls, usually through a form of passive psychokinesis resulting from severe physical or psychic trauma. In some extreme cases, poltergeists have been linked to demons

And also:

Poltergeists can be triggered by a living person's trauma in any area at any time. They can travel.

Yeah, my website did say that didn't it? You're very perceptive... Oh wait every other poltergeist website in the world also offers this same tidbit of information, and everytime it starts out like this:

QUOTE

Poltergeist theories suggest .....

Just a theory....

Indeed, the whole basis of the debate really rests on those two words doesnt it - THEORY and SUGGEST wink2.gif

QUOTE

OK, forget these three cases, which are the ones always used as examples and give us something that’s less ‘famous’.

Yes, let's forget the three most important and intruiging Poltergeist cases ever recorded in history to focus on the real topic at hand,.. me being right.

The three cases that are maybe the most important because they have been written about so much? Incidentally, the ‘Bell Witch’ reads more like a mystery novel, which admittedly did not end harmlessly, with the father of the family, John Bell, being murdered. But then no-one in those far off puritanical days could play the role of a ‘psychological detective’, the murder was never brought home to Betsy Bell, the young daughter of the house. Only by historical basis can one reach the conclusion that, behind Betsy’s ferocious hatred of her father, a sexual atrocity clamored for vengeance. 3 cases is hardly substantial evidence in the big scheme of things… you quoted cases that everyone knows of! good try MB! I asked for more unique or unusual examples, like this:

(taken from a case recorded by Dr Aiden Redmond of Elm Park Gardens, London)

‘Mysterious knockings had occurred in the house for several weeks and the nerves of the family were shot. They found that they were not so much knocks as hammer blows that took place on a particular wall dividing the house from the next one. They began after a slate roof had been fixed over the next house. They were dull raps, but came, occasionally, in quick succession as if trying to express something, and most often died down when strangers where in the house. It was impossible to determine the point of origin of the sounds. The doctor listened with his ear against the wall but could detect no vibration.

I was fortunate enough to hear the raps. They sounded as if somewhere a wooden mallet was hitting the wall with a terrific force. I heard three or four blows distinctly, then a spate of them in rapid succession, the second time, they were sharper. They were coming from above from a dark upper floor that was empty.

I noticed a young servant girl in the next room. She seemed to be listening in on the proceedings. I had a talk with her alone. Her name was Florrie and she was seventeen years old. She told me that four years before, in her fathers house, something similar had happened: blows on the wall had been heard which lasted for about a week. There were nine children in her family, the oldest was seventeen. She was thirteen when it happened. All of them were sent away. When they returned, the blows were gone, and they were told by the father that the builder had found a loose slate banging on the roof.

“I never believed him” Florrie said. “I thought it was a ghost. I think there is a ghost in this house, too. Last year I had a nightmare. I heard knockings and woke up screaming.”

What Florrie did’nt know was that, being in the pubertal age, she herself may have been the ghost in her fathers house. Why the blows should return four years later in the doctors house, I do not know. Perhaps the talk of the new slate roof was responsible for the return of the repressed feelings.’

(quoted from the book ‘The Haunted Mind’ by Dr Nandor Fodor, Signet Press, 1959)

Plenty more where that came from wink2.gif

The policeman could’ve just as easily struck himself accidentally, and put it down to what was happening, it was not unknown to see a cop back in those days swinging their billy club round by the cord to which the kept around their wrist…that sounds kinda wrong....lol!)

QUOTE

There is’nt anything in the above passages that I have’nt heard from cases where the ‘focus’ created the wounds themselves.

*And what cases are those Hoags?

Well, here’s one:

‘…She fell into states of anxiety and complete exhaustion, she heard voices, had visions, went hysterically blind, became flatulent until she appeared to be in an advanced state of pregnancy (aerophagia), produced a spray of violet perfume that hung like a cloud so that you could walk into it and out of it, and showed uticarious phenomena with a fantastic background. She claimed that a ghost tiger was clawing at her body, and several of the ladies in her immediate vicinity reported a horrible odor, a fetid smell as from a zoo. (suggestion??) There were incidents that suggested self mutilation, there were fantasies of bi-location or self projection that, on the most charitable level, suggested ambulatory amnesia and there were indications of a strong masochistic, even suicidal drive – hinting at a terrible injury and guilt hidden in the depth of Mrs Forbes’ unconscious mind.’

(taken from ‘The Haunted Mind’ by Dr Nandor Fodor, Signet Press, 1959 – the case this is taken from ‘The Thornton Heath Case’ originally published in the book ‘On the Trail Of the Poltergeist by the same author, New York: Citadel Press 1958)

I quote:

‘Poltergeist activity tends to fade away after six months, though there are, as we have seen, cases that can differ from this general rule. Attempts to banish or eliminate poltergeists ahead of this period of time seem to work, though it is equally as possible that the effects would have worn off anyway.’

(taken from the book ‘Ghostwatching’ by John Spencer and Tony Wells)

This does nothing but restate what I just said with a famous author in place.

suggesting nothing really supernormal, more like boredom I would say...

I would like to mention something which I don’t believe we have touched upon yet, the subject of ‘dis-association’. This is the dis-association of one part of a persons mind or personality. It may take on the form of a temporary state of amnesia – in which a person will commit certain acts or take on a different personality for short periods of time (‘Fred’in the Enfield Poltergeist maybe???), and then return to the normal self with no conscious memory of what has been done. Obviously, if a person is suffering from this type of schitzophrenia, or ‘split-personality’, he may carry out destructive acts, representing the repressed desires or frustrations, without realizing he is the cause (which would also help with an explanation toward cuts and bruises with no recollection of how they got there). Such ‘switching back and forth’ can happen in an instant, meaning that certain acts may be completely forgotten immediately after they take place.

By "Strength and control" I am referring to the 5 stage energy cycle I posted last time. The different levels represent their change in energy and therefor the control over the household and it's living inhabitants at the time.

And thats great that you want to get a straightfoward logical view on this matter. I'm saying that they don't follow along with human reasoning too well though, and to hold them to that standard is foolish.

What other standard do we have to go by then??? huh.gif

"Have you ever tried explaining yourself to a cockroach?"

~John Keel, the Mothman Prophecies

No, I just nuke em with bug spray, ah the wonders of science happy.gif

I am siding with the idea of confusing energy driven spirits because of what evidence I have seen in such cases, even if they are the top 10% of the intense cases...(Malicious attacks, actually enties seen or witnessed, letters and messages written in blood, voices directed at people in the household).

I am siding with dis-association on that one wink2.gif

So far this debate has offered t(w)o good sides to a story, but I’m still not convinced.

The Judges is where I'm concerned....

Awww, and here was me thinking it was to convince the masses tongue.gif

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MonkeyBurd has been granted extra time. thumbsup.gif

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Put this to Rest

~Conclusion~

In the previous posts, it was my job to prove that Poltergeists exsist in this world; I believe I have accomplished this task.

There are many famous and well documented poltergeist cases in the world today, that cannot (and perhaps never can) be fully explained.

Of those poltergeist cases there's been witnessed an obvious intelligent being the disturbances; they are not random chance or random unrelated events. Their is a force or spirit behind them. This can be seem in extreme cases which exhibit:

~Otherworldly whispering

~Physical Attacks

~Writing from spirits

~Actual beings/apparitions being witnessed

Poltergeist cases are still very mysterious and misunderstood, especially in regards to location, periods of strength, and the human agent, despite research into each of these factors. We know of certain elements of cases, but a theory that has worked accurately and effectively has yet to be really seen.

As for certain contradictory theories.... that aim to describe or explain the reason for poltergeist cases, I feel they still prove that there are such things as poltergeists phenomenon. To attempt disproving poltergeists entirely by claiming they are caused by an internal human force rather then spirits does not disprove poltergeists in my humble opinion.

To claim all poltergeist cases are hoaxed is to disprove them.

I hope I have made my case clear. original.gif

~Monkyburd

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Six foot under…..

…and stirring…..

My conclusion.

It was my job, as fiend and somewhat skeptic, to try and give a more grounded ‘down-to-earth’ angle on this rather elusive and questionable ‘phenomena’.

Because something has been recorded, doesn’t necessarily warrant it being the bottom line, as events and happenings can be exaggerated and misperceived after the excitement of an event has occurred.

The word ‘Poltergeist’ does indeed mean ‘noisy spirit’, but I still think it is just a name given to a part of the human sphere that is yet uncharted. Just like space, we know its there, we have seen what’s there we just haven’t conquered it yet.

At the end of the day, until technology advances, or something happens that is 100% solid concrete, undeniable proof that poltergeists are the work of outside intelligence, all we can do is read accounts, re-read them, analyze them and, offer ‘theories’ (both for and against) and take what we can from them. I have presented some cases here that give good ground that poltergeists could well be a misunderstood part of the human sphere. I hope they make for a convincing counter-debate.

I would like to end with a quote from John Keel’s ‘The Mothman Prophecies’:

‘Back in the 1920’s, Charles Fort, the first writer to explore inexplicable events, observed you can measure a circle by beginning anywhere. Paranormal phenomena are so widespread, so diversified, and so sporadic yet so persistent that separating and studying any single element is not only a waste of time but will also automatically lead to the development of belief. Once you have established belief, the phenomenon adjusts its manifestations to support that belief and therefore escalate it. If you believe in the devil he will surely come striding down your road one rainy night and ask to use your phone. If you believe that flying saucers are astronauts from another planet they will begin landing and collecting rocks from your garden…’

Over and out

Hoagy

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