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Ciraxis

Fallen angels

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Does anyone know or does any text state what kind of angels fell from heaven? What class were they, or were they just labeled as angels and nothing more? Any one have a source? I'm looking into something i thoughht of, but i can't continue without know if they were high angels or lower ones. someone help.

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i've been to that site, but i don't rember seeing anything on the classification of the fallen angels.

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Hey Ciraxis.

What exactly do you mean by what class they were? It says how angels fell from heaven and mated with humans and such. And it says that 1/3 off all the angels fell from heaven with Satan. But I don't remember it saying anything about their class.

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Posted (edited)

There were two accounts of a mass fall of angels. One was with the original rebellion of satan when he refused (and the angels under him subsequently refused) to bow down to Adam, as satan claimed Adam should bow down to him as he was around first. He then proceeded to try and exalt his throne, and was kicked out with the angels under his command. He was the highest of all angels originally. He and the angels that fell with him became the first accusing angels with satan (or satanail) as prince over them. The angels from that rebellion were bound in the 2nd Heaven.

Those same angels (satan and his rebellion were allowed, at that time, to tempt/test/accuse their own kind as well as humans) that rebelled tempted several (200) of the then 'Holy Watchers' or Irin Qaddism, to fall and marry women. They obtained, through the archangel Michael an oath to fall based on the Creation of the world 'and by this oath....' etc (this is why taking an oath, any oath became forbidden). These two hundred angels did fall, were punished, and were bound in the 5th Heaven. Three however, gieven full blame for the other angels deeds (and later for a 'scapegoat' of man's deeds, read Exodus) where bound hand and foot and blindfolded in the wilderness for a period of 7000 years. There then was a division between the Irin Qaddism or Holy Watchers (there were still 7 rows of them left after the fall) of which they are all identical and 'twin' judgement angels. The fallen lot took on many forms however. The fallen then became known just as 'the Watchers' or the Grigori. These angels were NOT the originally fallen angels of the rebellion, nor 'satan's angels', they were Holy angels tempted by the rebellion.

As a result of this the 'War in Heaven' noted in Revelation where the archangel Michael kicked out the dragon who was accusing THEIR (angels) bretherin (other angels) night and day before the Lord as a result of this dragon's (satan) accusations againts them and causing many angels to fall. Satan then was demoted to accusing angel solely of humans, and God then tested His own angels.

There was also at this time an angel fall (Azza, also said to be one of the angels marry women) because he objected to the high rank given Enoch when he transformed into the angel Metatron. So God had him suspended between Heaven and Earth (mid space) one eye open one eye shut so he can he his impending crash to Earth.

So, yes, there are many accounts of angels falling. And to recap, the 'class' which is actually termed 'rank' of the angels was:

Satan: Cherubim, originally highest of all angels, as God had favored him and hiven him the most power)

Angels of Enoch: Irin Qaddism/Holy Watchers, after their fall, they were termed just 'Watchers' or more specifically the Grigori/Egrigori.

However, that being said, fallen angels DO retain their rank (even the watchers were still watchers, but satan, according to Jubilees, claimed a percentage of them to become accusing angels. Part of the Irin and Qaddism is that one angel takes your defense, and the other your prosecution on your judgement at death) and their jobs. They also, even when fallen remain loyal to God, even satan. His beef is with humanity, he's not stupid enough to fight God, and God Himself said that (afetr satan's fall, and the fall of the angls) that 'There is NO ONE at war with Me'. They also only fall for a set period of time. The angels of Enoch fell for 9 days (9000 years, one 'day' in Heaven is 1000 years on Earth, just as the 7 'days' of Creation were 7000 years on Earth), 7000 of them with the 3 given full blame on the Earth, 2000 in their hell, Pluto.

Edited by Ashley-Star*Child

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i guess i'm wondering if any of them were seraphs or archangels or the wheel ones or the ones that look like animals(not sure of their name) i know that 1/3 fell, but i was interested in knowing if their rank/ class or whatever was defined at all

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i guess i'm wondering if any of them were seraphs or archangels or the wheel ones or the ones that look like animals(not sure of their name)  i know that 1/3 fell, but i was interested in knowing if their rank/ class or whatever was defined at all

707154[/snapback]

Well, other than Satan being classified as a cherbim, I don't think the bible mentions as to what class they were. More than likely they were just normal angels. Otherwise I suppose it would have pointed it out. But then again I'm sure some were higher than others.

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I just answered your question. The Irin Qaddism is a class of angel. The appear human like, are all identical 'twin' in plural and are of humungous proprtions, reported to have been higher in power and size than other angels.

Satan was a cherubim which is the '4 headed ones' 3 of which have animal heads, all of which are the 4 fixed signs of the Zodiac.

The 'wheel ones' are Ofanim, Archangels are archangels, just above the class just termed 'angels' but Archangels have a higher rank in a different sense because they hold the keys to Heaven and can visit the 10th Heaven where God is (not all angels can). The Highest class is Cherubim. Although some say Seraphim. Seraphim are giant 'serpents with blazing swords', the ones that guard Eden. There are angels with eyes of fire and eyes of lightning. The different classes have different forms, but ALL can appear human.

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Jeeez!

With devil in hell waiting to torment your ass forever and constant bickering in

heaven, where the heck can a guy go just to get away from it all?!! no.gif

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I have been reading a little about this and have found some clues by reading about the irin or the watchers. If you do a Google on either of these subjects it may give you some insights as to some of the fallen. The Old Testament does not mention the notion of the fallen angels whatsoever. The actual first reference to a fallen angel/s does not show up until the New Testament, specifically Revelation 12 --

" And his tail (the dragon's or Satan's) drew the third part of the stars of Heaven (angels) and did cast them to Earth... and Satan, which deceived the whole world; he was cast out into the Earth and his angels were cast out with him."

The rest of the mythos surrounding fallen angels comes from Babylonian texts and The Kabbalists.

I have discovered a very informative site concerning general topics on many religions and mythologies... http://www.pantheon.org/

Another interesting site....http://www.steliart.com/angelology_angel_names_I.html

Happy researching.

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Posted (edited)

Does anyone know or does any text state what kind of angels fell from heaven?  What class were they, or were they just labeled as angels and nothing more?  Any one have a source?  I'm looking into something i thoughht of, but i can't continue without know if they were high angels or lower ones.  someone help.

705482[/snapback]

I guess it depends if you are prepared to believe a modern revelation. If you are, this is far an away the best: The Lucifer Rebellion

I believe I know something about this, because I work a lot with midwayers, which are a type of spiritual being and 873 of their 1984 followed Lucifer into rebellion. As a result 1,111 were left when the rebels were locked up. And the 1,111 use the 11:11 time prompt which millions of folks are seeing.

http://www.1111angels.com

Edited by Geoff

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There were two 'rebellions', and modern takes on such an ancient event really aren't valid.

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There were two 'rebellions', and modern takes on such an ancient event really aren't valid.

745417[/snapback]

You do say the most outrageous things. Celestial entities, like midwayers, are 37,000 years old, and have a faultless memory. When they explain what happened, it is as accurate as the quality of the channel. The memory of the event is not the issue. But the ancient "takes" are all in "holy books" and we all know how much they have been altered.

And there have not been two rebellions. Not in this part of the universe of Nebadon. But of course if you were referring to other parts of the universe....

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Posted (edited)

Oh puh-lese don't feed me the 'you know how much they have been altered' bull****. Yes they have been altered, key parts have ben removed, but guess what, originals still exist and can be read, and they have not now nor have they ever been altered. See they had this little rule - as told by GOD - then that it must all be ONE WORD no spaces, punctuation etc, so that it COULDN'T be altered or changed in any way. One letter mispelt and it was considered 'corrupt', that is why it was called 'THE WORD' as it was, quite literally, all ONE Word. THE Word of God. The Logos, comprende?

There were two rebellions, or rather, two mass 'falls' the first initaited by rebellion. I know what I'm talking about. Take a good hard look at my sig. When you know what that means, get back to me. thumbsup.gif

Edited by Ashley-Star*Child

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Oh puh-lese don't feed me the 'you know how much they have been altered' bull****. Yes they have been altered, key parts have ben removed, but guess what, originals still exist and can be read, and they have not now nor have they ever been altered. See they had this little rule - as told by GOD - then that it must all be ONE WORD no spaces, punctuation etc, so that it COULDN'T be altered or changed in any way. One letter mispelt and it was considered 'corrupt', that is why it was called 'THE WORD' as it was, quite literally, all ONE Word. THE Word of God. The Logos, comprende?

There were two rebellions, or rather, two mass 'falls' the first initaited by rebellion. I know what I'm talking about. Take a good hard look at my sig. When you know what that means, get back to me. thumbsup.gif

745747[/snapback]

There does not exist a single "original" of the NT in Aramaic. There does not exist a single document of the NT that has been generally agreed to have been written before 50AD. You try writing an authentic account of something that happened 50 years ago. I am out of here. You are a Bible basher in disguise.

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Oh dear we have a NT reader who knows jack about the OT. Do some research the OT you know the HEBREW SIDE, like Jesus (Yeshua to be exact) was HEBREW Himself.

And just to correct you the majority of the NT is in Greek, not Aramaic and the 'accepted timeline' could altogether be wrong to begin with.

Bible Bahser in disguise? Now you have given me a good laugh, thank you. laugh.gif

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i guess i'm wondering if any of them were seraphs or archangels or the wheel ones or the ones that look like animals(not sure of their name) i know that 1/3 fell, but i was interested in knowing if their rank/ class or whatever was defined at all

there is only one archangel, that is of course micheal

there is not one scripture that says n e different or any scripture that doesnt referre to micheal as an archangel and always referrs to gabriel as simply an angel wich is the lowest of them all, not that they arent still very powerful just of them being from God anyways back to my point it would be impossible for there to be n e fallen archangels because there is only one and his name is Micheal

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Now that it is completley understood that Lucifer never existed, and is only a Christian Roman transaltor's mistake, we have no evidence that Satan is a "Cherub", although his description in Revelation and other clues suggest he is a "draconic" heavenly creature, either Seraphim or Cherubim.

But with the dismissal of the Lucifer passage, we must also dismiss the nonsensical, so-called "war in heaven". There was never a war or rebellion, per se, just a few horny angels that wanted to have sex with human women.

The "War in Heaven" was created by the post exile Jews and expanded upon by the early Christians because their faiths departed from a pure monotheism and they adopted pagan-dualistic theologies taken directly from Persian Zorastrianism. Ahura binds his evil dragon with his magic girdle and throws him into the abyss for 1000 years, and Michael uses a chain on his evil dragon. Other than that, it is just a direct rip-off of Zorastrian fairy tales. Revelation is a false prophecy. Not only is it full of myths stolen from the popular pagan relgions of the day, but it didn't even happen when it was supposed to. It was to occur when some of Jesus' deiciples were still living, John even used the words "very soon", and now its been almost 2000 years and we are still waiting.

To even claim angels revolted against God and caused so much misery to mankind in the form of nonsensical demons copied from Greek mythology is a complete contradiction of the original Old Testament scriptures, and to believe such things, must be regarded as the greatest blasphemies against an omnipotent God.

Edited by draconic chronicler

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Who exactly, do you think you are Draconic? You seem to believe, in much the same way as you believe in your own ideas, that yourf opinion states what everyone else believes. NEWSFLAAAAASH it doesn't. No one really gives a crap what book you are or are not bringing out to clutter bookstores, you opinion is your opinion and nothing further. In short, everyone is entitled to their beliefs and opinions, and you most definantly do NOT get the last say on that.

I'll also add that your posts are without credit because the only source you have is YOURSELF, and that means jack to everyone else.

Edited by Ashley-Star*Child

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Ashley, when things are so completely obvious, and understood by serious bible researchers, (such as Christianities imitation of Zorastrian theology as you are probably referring to now), it is pointless to constantly quote sources, but be assured they will all be listed in the book's footnotes.

Virtually everything I have said in these respects have already been said by many other, very well informed, and long-time UM posters.

Edited by draconic chronicler

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But with the dismissal of the Lucifer passage, we must also dismiss the nonsensical, so-called "war in heaven". There was never a war or rebellion, per se, just a few horny angels that wanted to have sex with human women.

The "War in Heaven" was created by the post exile Jews and expanded upon by the early Christians because their faiths departed from a pure monotheism and they adopted pagan-dualistic theologies taken directly from Persian Zorastrianism.

DC is spot on! The war in heaven is complete nonsense. It is, indeed, a terrible mistranslation of the Lucifer passage. You will learn this in any college classroom or theological seminary. The term Lucifer means "morning star" and is in reference to a King of Babylon.

"Lucifer" and the Hebrew Bible

"Lucifer" is used by Jerome in the Vulgate (4th century) to translate into Latin Isaiah 14:12-14, where the Hebrew text refers to heilel ben-shachar (???? ?? ??? in Hebrew). Heilel signifies the planet Venus, and ben-shachar means "the brilliant one, son of the morning", to whose mythical fate that of the King of Babylon is compared in the prophetic vision. The Jewish Encyclopedia reports that "it is obvious that the prophet in attributing to the Babylonian king boastful pride, followed by a fall, borrowed the idea from a popular legend connected with the morning star". Isaiah 14 starts out discussing the King of Babylon, and the reference "morning star, son of the dawn" originally applied specifically to that king's pride:

14:4 And you shall bear this parable against the king of Babylon, and you shall say, "How has the dominator ceased, has ceased the haughty one!

14:10 All of them shall speak up and say to you, 'Have you too become weak like us? Have you become like us?'

14:11 Your pride has been lowered into Gehinnom, the stirring of your psalteries. Maggots are spread under you, and worms cover you.

14:12 How have you fallen from heaven, Lucifer, the morning star? You have been cut down to earth, You who cast lots on nations. (Isaiah, Judaica Press Tanach) ...

... It is noteworthy that the Old Testament itself does not at any point actually mention the rebellion and fall of Satan directly. This non-Scriptural belief assembled from interpretations of different passages, would fall under the heading Christian mythology...

In the Vulgate, the word lucifer is used elsewhere: it describes the Morning Star (the planet Venus), the "light of the morning" (Job 11:17); the "signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32) and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). In the New Testament, "Jesus Christ" (in II Peter 1:19) is associated with the "morning star".

Not all references in the New Testament to the morning star refer to Lucifer, however; in Revelation:

Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

In the Eastern Empire, where Greek was the language, "morning star" (heosphorus) retained these earlier connotations. When Liutprand, bishop of Cremona, attended the Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus II in 968, he reported to his master Otto I the greeting sung to the emperor arriving in Hagia Sophia:

"Behold the morning star approaches, Eos rises; he reflects in his glances the rays of the sun— he the pale death of the Saracens, Nicephorus the ruler." [1]--Dennis Bratcher, "'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12-17: Translation and Ideology", "Jewish Encyclopedia: Lucifer", and "Vita Adae et Evae: Text from R.H. Charles, The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament (Oxford)"

So, the Isaiah passage does not connect, either historically or theologically, with the New Testament passages about the devil or the satan. By listening to the Old Testament passage on its own terms within its own context, we discover that Lucifer is not an Old Testament name for the devil or the satan. The passage in Isaiah 14:12-17 is directed at the downfall of the arrogant Babylonian rulers who took Israel into exile. By beginning with the New Testament, by making assumptions not supported by a closer examination of Scripture itself, and by using external theological categories as a lens through which to read Scripture, we may end up badly misreading Isaiah.--Dennis Bratcher, "'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12-17: Translation and Ideology

The whole war in heaven--god vs. satan--is derived from ancient combat myths and Persian dualism (Zoroastrianism) These concepts heavily influenced Hebrew scribes who incorporated them into the Hebrew Bible--the bulk of which was written down during the Babylonian exile. Again, this is Religion 101.

Read "The River of God" by Gregory Riley, professor of NT at the Claremont School of Theology, for a wonderful discussion on this topic. Outstanding read.

Kindly,

Sean

Edited by seanph

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Ashley, where is your proof that their are more than one heaven? Or levels of heaven or whatever... I find this kind of odd. O_o.

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who brought this thread back to life?

anyways, i was researching dragons, and i believe that if they exsist(ed) then they are a spirtitual being, not a physical one. most of the accounts of these beings are so much alike, but we have no evidence.

i believe similar things in regards to aliens, that they are not in fact aliens, but something much more sinister.

I'd love to talk about this stuff, but can we please stop the fighting? its a waste of time. i'd like to seriously discuss these things, sans bickering, but if it continues i'll ask this thread be closed.

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I can't think of a single 'Biblical scholar' who agrees with you DC. Especially on your dragon myths. What I find so completely obvious is that you are trying to sell something you have absolutely no idea about. Shall we battle? That will give you a war to talk about. Here's a hint sweetness, that war in Heaven is directly linked to those 'horny angels' you so graciously quoted them as. :tu:

Ashley, where is your proof that their are more than one heaven? Or levels of heaven or whatever... I find this kind of odd. O_o.

Enoch, and the entire Judaic religion which pre-dates Christianity. :tu:

i believe similar things in regards to aliens, that they are not in fact aliens, but something much more sinister.

I can agree on that. In fact there are texts o back it up. 'Aliens' are nothing new.

DC is nowhere near 'spot on' and shall I just remind certain people that multiple screennames are prohibited on this site. :tu:

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I can't think of a single 'Biblical scholar' who agrees with you DC. Especially on your dragon myths. What I find so completely obvious is that you are trying to sell something you have absolutely no idea about. Shall we battle? That will give you a war to talk about. Here's a hint sweetness, that war in Heaven is directly linked to those 'horny angels' you so graciously quoted them as. :tu:

Enoch, and the entire Judaic religion which pre-dates Christianity. :tu:

I can agree on that. In fact there are texts o back it up. 'Aliens' are nothing new.

DC is nowhere near 'spot on' and shall I just remind certain people that multiple screennames are prohibited on this site. :tu:

:w00t: LOL..............I really hate to impose on what is a he said she said coversation, the only truth about when , where and how we came to be will be answered 1 way, and until then im sure we can, well i know of a couple thousand things i would rather do then to argue with a DRAGON in waiting (to be published) and get all bothered about some fight in heaven ?And by the way Ash.... That book with whats his name in it...Enoch, its rather interesting, just wish i could been there to read them scrolls, im sure there is some other stuff in them that we don't even know about yet.. :D

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