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NJC

more about the rapture

23 posts in this topic

 

I can see that the quotes all agree that some of that generation will still be living when he returns. They aren't, so evidentally he isn't! no.gif

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Posted (edited)

I maintain as I always have that I do not believe the Rapture to be an actual event. The second article NJC posted gives a little insight into what I believe. I subscribe to the amellenialist belief of the end times. And though I admit I could be wrong, I ultimately do not think it will matter. Whether the Pre, Post, or A-millenialist view is correct the end result is the same.

Unless of course neither is correct in which case i'm stuffed tongue.gif

Regards, PA

Edit: Mako, Mako, Mako no.gifno.gifno.gif

Must we really go over that again. Jesus did return. You know - he died. Three days later he rose again. That's more of a return than you or I can boast, eh grin2.gif

Edited by Paranoid Android

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If you pray and will it hard enough your dream might come true. And then your be with your loving and kind god original.gif NJC can you do anything other than make threads and only put up links?

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as I have said before, show some proof of that (other than websites) yes.gif

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WASH - One of the most significant pre-end-time events will occur August 18 through the 25th in Gog and Magog. Amassing on the border between Eastern Russia and Western China will be some ten thousand soldiers of the Russian and Chinese armies, ready to conduct joint military exercises for the first time in modern history.

Bitter enemies throughout the last three hundred years, China once claimed that much of the Russian far east rightfully belonged to Beijing and this territorial rivalry, along with competing brands of communism in the 20th century, resulted in many a bloody battle along their common border. But this is the very land of Gog and Magog described in the Bible.

And the military exercises are also reflective of this area that scholars debate as to the true identity of Gog and Magog. Russia and Moscow are commonly accepted as Gog. Magog, however, is disputed as to whether it is part of Russia or part of the former land roamed by the Scythians, which would put the area in both the hands of Russia and China. Irrespective of the debate, it is agreed that this is the general area prophesied by the prophet Ezekiel of those who will come against Israel in the last days.

In typical propaganda jargon, the official Chinese state media has named the operation "Peace Mission 2005." The exercise includes land, air and sea forces in addition to paratroopers and crack troops. They are targeted at improving each country’s ability to "jointly strike international terrorism, extremism and separatism."

The two traditional bitter enemies have been building a cordial military relationship over the past 15 years. Currently, Russia’s flagging military economy is the primary supplier of high-tech weaponry to the Chinese, providing the Russians with badly needed currency for its military industrial complex.

Chinese state media, in shedding a bit of light on the military exercises said, "The drills mainly aim to deepen Sino-Russian mutual trust, promote mutual friendship and enhance the co-operation and co-ordination of the two armed forces in the areas of defense and security."

Already the United States is on edge about this very visible flexing of military muscle. Defense Department officials have testified before Congress that the Chinese military represents a threat to the United States, and even more directly to the renegade Chinese property, Taiwan, whose freedom the U.S. is obligated by law to defend.

The words of import in this announcement were those that said these exercises would enhance the army’s abilities to jointly strike international terrorism, extremism and separatism. We know what terrorism is, but their Islamist allies think Israel defending itself is terrorism. Extremism from a communistic perspective could be Capitalism. And separatism means Taiwan. Warnings all!

Any respectable intelligence agent would have never thought possible that Russia and China would be holding joint military operations. During the U.S. cold war with the Soviet Union, China and the Soviets, although both communistic, sported different brands of communism that made them both economic and military rivals. Indeed, China had been a relatively closed society and limited showings of its military power to the Western world to rare parade appearances and small strategic demonstrations.

The prophecy of Ezekiel some 2,500 years ago described this relationship: “Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him…And the Lord said He would bring them, along with Persia, Ethiopia, Libya and other nations against Israel.

This military exercise will practice the cooperation needed to come against Israel, and both China and Russia are assisting Iran and other nations in their preparation for this cataclysmic battle. It is happening before your eyes.

http://farshores.org/05et10.htm

things could get interesting around here.

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NJC, it is bad form to start a thread with just a link or two and no commentary/opinion. Do a bit of work on your own and give people a reason to want to go read the article.

Have I made myself clear?

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things could get interesting around here.

Or not! Why should we accept your identification of Gog and Magog? I can go on line and find G&M identifications ranging from the Celtic to the Afghanis to the Chinese....Face it, it is all mythology and people who should be intelligent enough to see that get their knickers all in a twist over the rantings of a man who died 2500 years ago that was little better than a bronze age barbarian! If that is all you have to worry about, you seriously need to get a life! yes.gif

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Posted (edited)

man, don't be a prick. you are very funny though.

just look at your sig, you seem like you need to get a life. It is no fault of mine if you misinterpret my post, you are seriously a fool.

Edited by Ciraxis

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since i saw that other rapture thread it inspired me to go look it up in google

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you are seriously a fool

I only rebutt the foolishness of others, if that makes me a fool, then it is only through association with the fools posting foolish and often totally out of context and misunderstood material that they dig up off the internet. If a little knowledge is dangerous, you must be lethal! yes.gif

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hahaha!

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The Rapture story was begun by John N. Darby, a minister of the Church of Ireland, back in 1830. He based it off a loose interpretation in Corinthians. There was no actual mention of an 'air passage' till the Scofield Bible was printed in 1909.

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The Rapture story was begun by John N. Darby, a minister of the Church of Ireland, back in 1830.  He based it off a loose interpretation in Corinthians.  There was no actual mention of an 'air passage' till the Scofield Bible was printed in 1909.

796012[/snapback]

Ah crap! you beat me to the punch. I always thought that if the rapture did happen it would look like Micheal Jackson's 'Thriller' or 'Dawn of the Dead'. Can you imagine raising your hands toward heaven and having them drop off?

lapi'che ni'tis

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Mako is entirely correct in his statement that if the Revelation of St. John had been true, Jesus would have returned circa 90 to 100 AD. It was clearly written with the intention that Jesus would return in that time. The seven headed red dragon was clearly an allusion to the Roman empire of St. John's time, (the government which exiled him to the island of Patmos) and not the Catholic Pope of today.

The most amusing aspect regarding the whole "Rapture myth" is that when Jesus said "some will be taken away", which was the basis of it, was NOT intended to be a "good" thing.

Although so much of the original Christian doctrine has been perverted by pagan beliefs to make the new religion popular in the Greco Roman world, in John's time it was still a widely held belief that great serpent-dragons residing in Heaven and controlled by the ArchAngel Gabriel would "take away" (consume) the unrighteous. This can be seen in other early Christian books such as Baruch as well as a great deal of Hebrew religious literature. This idea evolved into the dragon's mouth allegory of "hell" in the middle ages.

Think about it. Being "taken" is not a good connotation, as in, "the surfer was taken by the shark", or "the missionary was taken by the lion". In this case, Jesus meant that the "unrighteous Christians would be taken by the Seraphim dragons" grin2.gif .

The Apocolypse of Baruch, Enoch, etc are a good examples though, how the early Christian leaders picked and chose the books they liked. John's revelation could have been left out just as easily as those books, and Christian doctrine would be far different today.

Edited by draconic chronicler

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Well lets see if I can prove the rapture is in the bible. And defend the end times. But lets start first on why Revelation didn't happen in 100AD.

The first problem is that there were several prophesied conditions were not met for the end times. Lets start with Matthew 24-14.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

This could not have happened in 100 AD. Some of those "nations" or ethnic groups in some translations couldn't have been contacted until well into the 20th century.

Secondly, there is a matter of some biblical curses to be dealt with.

Luke 21-24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Gentiles still walk the streets of Jerusalem to this day. And until they are removed The end times won't proceed.

So now what does this " Times of the Gentiles consist of? The 2 active biblical curses on the house of Israel. And here they are. First off a history lesson.

After the days of Solomon ancient Israel split into 2 countries. The northern kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah. Then after several hundred years around the years 725 to 721 BC Israel was conquered by the Assyrians and the people taken away as slaves. Then in 605 BC Judah was conquered by the Babylonians. Then a few years later the prophet Ezekiel was given a message from God on the length of the curses he placed on them in Ezekiel 4.

390 years for Israel and 40 years for Judah. And after the curse expired Judah was eventually restored. But after 390 years Israel was not. And thats a problem. Because according to the covenants of Moses They should have been restored. So I went looking for the problem and found it in the book of Hosea.

Hosea 7-1

When I would have healed Israel, then the iniquity of Ephraim was discovered, and the wickedness of Samaria: for they commit falsehood; and the thief cometh in, and the troop of robbers spoileth without.

9-16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.

17 My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations.

13-7 Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:

8 I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.

So why are these verses important? Because of this verse in Leviticus 26.

28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.

They triggered the final 7 times multiplier in the covenant. The curse became 390 times 7. Or 2730 years. And based on 724 BC it would seem this curse is expiring right about now. Give or take a couple of years.

And now for the 2nd curse. The one on Judah. And I found it in Hosea 6.

1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

2nd Peter 3-8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

A prediction of a 2000 year curse. And so far so good. It's the 2nd day and a Israel exists again. And it seems to explain the Palestinian problem as well. The curse is not quite over yet.

******************************************************************

So now here is the rapture in Revelation. It's part of the 6th Seal of Revelation by the way.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Those people suddenly appear out of nowhere. In 4-6 the sea of glass is empty. Or John would have mentioned the fact that they were surrounded by people.

So now we know that the rapture happens during the 6th seal of Revelation. More proof? Read this out of Matthew 26.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And now compare these events with Revelation 6.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

It's the same event. Described from different viewpoints.

So now for the bonus. When does the 6th seal happen. We are told that in Luke 21.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

The 6th seal and the Rapture happen after the days of the Gentiles. And the event to look for is when Gentiles no longer walk the streets of Jerusalem.

And now for an encore I'm going to go walk on some water.

Have a nice day.

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Lets start with Matthew 24-14

You see, starting with Matt 24:14 doesn't help, because in Matt 24:34 your savior states that "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Well, that generation is 2000 years dust, so the speaker must have been a false prophet, which means that the whole book (including Rev) was just so much fiction! yes.gif

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Mako - I've lost count of the times I've replied to this exact question of yours. Jesus did return. You know - three days after his death he came back to life.

But don't worry mate, it improves my post count without actually having to do any new thinking grin2.gif

Regards, PA

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You and yours have no evidence of any return, it is merely theorized that he returned. No where in any of your mythology does it state such, just as no where does it state that Mary mother of God is just slightly less holy than her son. Show some evidence to back your statement (other than than website which was much less than convincing) yes.gif

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Lets start with Matthew 24-14

You see, starting with Matt 24:14 doesn't help, because in Matt 24:34 your savior states that "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Well, that generation is 2000 years dust, so the speaker must have been a false prophet, which means that the whole book (including Rev) was just so much fiction! yes.gif

833967[/snapback]

A problem with that statement though. Matthew 24-34 is meant to be read in context with 24-33 and the rest of the chapter.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

While it can be said that some of the conditions listed in Matthew 24 have always been fulfilled over the past 2000 years verse 24-14 could not have been physically fulfilled until the 20th century. Therefore the generation didn't start until it was.

Now is the generation running now? I would say yes and here's why. According to 24-14 the end times could not come until it was fulfilled. So now the question is "Has any end time events happened?" And the answer is yes. The rebirth of Israel in 1948. Predicted in a number of prophecies. Ezekiel 37 being one.

So based on that I would say the generation is at least 57 years old. But based on the most generous interpretation of "This generation shall not pass" It could be as long as 120 years.

Edited by ntech

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Since he said the same thing in Mark, Luke and John, each time specifying "this generation standing here", except for John where he specified John the disciple, it stands to logic and reason (although it has been my experience that most believers check those items at the door) that he meant exactly what he said, the generation that he was a part of (the pre-temple destruction generation). This means, with the dreath of antique apostles, he was wrong and the NT is nothing more than a collection of ancient fiction. yes.gif

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Since he said the same thing in Mark, Luke and John, each time specifying "this generation standing here", except for John where he specified John the disciple, it stands to logic and reason (although it has been my experience that most believers check those items at the door) that he meant exactly what he said, the generation that he was a part of (the pre-temple destruction generation).  This means, with the dreath of antique apostles, he was wrong and the NT is nothing more than a collection of ancient fiction.  yes.gif

834987[/snapback]

Let's see.

Mark Chap 13

7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke Chap 21

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

John

This verse about the generation is not in the book of John

The problem with your assumption is that the phrase about the generation can be read in 2 different ways. The one you have given about it being the generation of the apostles is one. Which is no longer possible because they are all dead by now.

However there is a possible 2nd meaning. The generation of the fig tree. The generation doesn't start until the conditions given are all met.

Matthew and Mark give as a condition that the gospel must first be published to all the nations of the world. Not met until the 20th century.

And Luke gives as a condition that the Gentiles will tread on Jerusalem until the times of the Gentiles is over. Not fulfilled yet.

So according to Luke the generation hasn't started yet.

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Hmmmm, all thos conditiions, yet you miss the fact that the generation he referenced has been dust over 2000 years. He missed the call, he is a false prophet and you know the penalty for that (one which he answered). Until you can show me a 2000 year old apostle, I care not one whit for the conditions...the fact remains the generation passed away, it was prophesied that they wouldn't, but they did - hence false prophecy! yes.gif

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