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SoLLiZ

God and the devil

27 posts in this topic

here's another thing that i wonder about

if god is all powerful, how could the devil even imagine revolting against him if he knew he would have no chance of winning.

if god is all knowing, why would he create lucifer

perhaps the devil works for god and isn't evil at all, he just brings some bad stuff into the mix so you can appreciate the good and so that there can be freewill.

any thoughts?

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You just answered your own question! LOL!

There has to be the option to choose your own destiny. There has to be a balance...Ying-Yang...Good-Evil...Dark Light! He gave us the ability to choose wether we want to trust in him or not. And by the way Lucifer was first an angel. But I am sure with God being all knowing that he knew Lucifer was going to be a fallen angel before he even was!

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yeah, but what i'm asking is why would god create something he knew would rebel, or, was there no rebellion at all, and god and the devil are in cahoots.

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He knew the devil would rebel and become the Devil...this ment that people like you and me could choose wether to go to heaven or hell. Its all about choice...am I understanding what your asking...Im not Im sorry...help me understand!

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i don't know if i can explain it better, i have been drinking a bit lol.

and if god created something that he knew would rebel, and become damned, then that makes god an a-hole

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No...Its like our government...they make things that we dont like sometimes...but that doesnt mean that other ppl wont like them...we are built on a society that had choices and free will...that doesnt make our government bad and it doesnt make god bad either...he just doesnt want to force us to love him...he would rather us come to him on our own terms

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i can see your point, but don't forget i'm kinda drunk, so i'll have to hit this back when i'm sober and my wife isn't yelling at me.

i guess satan won tonight in my life lol

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LOL Go to bed...youll feel better in the morning!!

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i can't, i still got 12 left lol

okay, maybe this will help explain why i said god is an a-hole

lets say that i can see the future. i know that if i knock up this one chick, the kid that will be born will be the next hitler and kill millions. i know this before i even meet the girl. when i do meet her, i still knock her up, the kid is born, grows up, kills millions. now, since i knew this would happen, doesn't that make me responsible?

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Are you comparing God to that explanation?

God is not responsible for our own actions, yes he may know it. But he doesn't control our life.

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what i am trying to say, is why would you create something, just to damn it to hell?

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If you mean to say why would he want to destroy something he created, he doesn't want to destroy it. Remember that it's our own actions that sends us to hell. About that Hitler part, he couldn't have killed Hitler. Not all bad is destroyed, and besides God does things for a reason. The devil was made up for himself and all evil. Whatever i'm really tired and I don't know if i'm answering what you're looking for. sleepy.gif

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A few points. God creates Lucifer. God knows Lucifer's actions. this is a part of God's plan.

As to your question that if God created him to condemn him, is God an A-hole............. That's a good question and not one that can be responded to in a short reply. The angel's are not judged in the same way that we are (at least that's my opinion), so to say that Satan's condemned isn't exactly right.

I guess the best response I can give is from the Book of Romans where people are asking the exact same thing and Paul replies "What right does the clay have to say to the potter "why did you make me this way?" Who are we, the created, to question the creator in other words.

Hope this helps thumbsup.gif

regards, PA

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or, as i have postulated, the god of abraham is both the "god" and the "devil". this is the only way for it to be all-powerful and complete. Otherwise it is as incomplete (godwise) as a car with one wheel removed.

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Using Occam's Razor, the simpliest answer is usually the correct answer, since there is no evidence for either god or the devil, they are nothing more than obsolete mythology that is slowing dying out. yes.gif

Edited by mako

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indeed mako! i should clarify my previous response was with respect to the characters within the mythology alone, and not to suggest existance outside of it. thumbsup.gif

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God didn't "condemn" the devil, the devil chose to become the ruler of hell. I think he said "It is better to be king of hell, than servant of heaven".

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There has to be a balance...Ying-Yang...Good-Evil...Dark Light!

813833[/snapback]

With this comment you are saying that the Devil is just as powerful/knowing as god! equal to God.

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There has to be a balance...Ying-Yang...Good-Evil...Dark Light!

813833[/snapback]

With this comment you are saying that the Devil is just as powerful/knowing as god! equal to God.

814421[/snapback]

Isn't the Devil just as powerful as God though but in an evil way?

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If you are a believer than they have power over you, If not then they are nothing more than just a myth.

Are you a believer?

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or, as i have postulated, the god of abraham is both the "god" and the "devil".  this is the only way for it to be all-powerful and complete.  Otherwise it is as incomplete (godwise) as a car with one wheel removed.

814290[/snapback]

this reminds me of some various gnostic groups, some felt that the god of the old testament was the devil, and that god in the new testament, was really god.

personally, i think it's basically myth anyway, i was just curious to hear what others had to say about the subject.

i do think it is pretty bad story telling over how much god has changed in the bible

in eden, he walked with man

he told moses (raised in all the ways of egypt) that his name was "i am" (a very egyptian response, since they thought knowing the god's true name could give you power over him)

he is vengeful and downright murderous in the old testament, but by the new testament he is friendly and all loving.

i guess character development is a recent aspect of story telling

and by the way, yes i drank way to much last night lol

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here's another thing that i wonder about

if god is all powerful, how could the devil even imagine revolting against him if he knew he would have no chance of winning.

if god is all knowing, why would he create lucifer

perhaps the devil works for god and isn't evil at all, he just brings some bad stuff into the mix so you can appreciate the good and so that there can be freewill.

any thoughts?

813815[/snapback]

Satanail was God's favorite angel, the angel given highest power by God. Satanail fell because of his own pride when he refused to bow down to Adam as all angels were instructed to do. He is, and his job is to be an accusing angel. What accusng angels do is test, tempt and accuse before God humans who have free will. God SENDS satan to test someone, as a test of that free will. God also says on numerous occasions that he controls both good and evil. He's also said 'there is no one at war with Me' and that was after satan's fall, and that there was no one who does not sumbit to Him.

'Evil' is quite misunderstood. Fallen angels fall because they don't have the free will to refuse God's command, and if they do so they become fallen and ARE punished in their own hells. However that fall doesn't always last forever. While no accusing angel - including satan, who with humanity as his reason, and most every other fallen angel's reason, for his fall, has a vendetta - is on humanity's 'side' and is therefore 'evil' to us they are still under God, and must obey God. In fact what satan wants, mor than anything else, is to be back in God's grace, just as every other fallen angel does.

If there were no accusing angels, there'd be no test of free will, ad as God said imself to Adam when He told him about his free will 'I will see who among your race will love or abhor Me'. In other words, dovotion of your own free will. Free will isn't really 'free' at all, it coms with tests of devotion and consequences.

Your last sentence is pretty much on the mark there. thumbsup.gif

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Another topic where opinions vary. I'm in the camp that God knew precisely what he was doing with Lucifer. There was no revolt or rebellion. Lucifer did not choose to go against God. In fact he couldn't if he wanted to. Men are unique creations under God in that they possess free will. Angels do not. Lucifer was the perfect angel created to love God alone and God absolutely. His expulsion from Heaven was to serve the role of the yang crucial to the greater plan.

Of course this is bound by Christian dogma. I like the version in the Persian myths where Satan is a scorned lover. Ever have an ex you were in love with that kicked you out? Something like that.

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Using Occam's Razor, the simpliest answer is usually the correct answer, since there is no evidence for either god or the devil, they are nothing more than obsolete mythology that is slowing dying out.  yes.gif

814298[/snapback]

user posted image

Since there is no evidence for either god or the devil within Homer’s head, they are nothing more than obsolete mythology that is slowing dying out. duh wacko.gif

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I think Loge is right, because if Homer don't know. Well self explanatory. rolleyes.gif

Loge that is funny. thumbsup.gif

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