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schadeaux

The Ghosts of Castello de la Rotta

27 posts in this topic

I'm no real fan of ghosts, but this one looked fairly cool.

user posted image

In 1980, this photo was taken at the Castello de la Rotta in northern Italy. It is assumed to be that of a ghost called Arturo who was said to be skeletal in appearance, rode a phantom horse and had a heavy iron cross hung around his neck. Curiously, this photo was taken just a few days after excavations at the castle uncovered the remains of a horse and a man with a metal cross hung around his neck.

A little HISTORY of Castle de la Rotta, and a couple of other pics taken there.

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thats ceratinly an impressive picture, but whay would the ghost be skeletal, they are always fully fleshed.

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but whay would the ghost be skeletal, they are always fully fleshed.

I think not always. A lot of times they are robed or covered in some fashion, or their features are blurry or distorted, making it hard to tell what they actually look like. Mayhap, over time, some spirits "forget" their true appearance, or are not fully aware that their appearance has altered. Ever meet with someone you haven't seen in a couple of years and think "My, how you've changed!" That person doesn't think so as much. To them it's the same old face it has always been.

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Mayhap, over time, some spirits "forget" their true appearance, or are not fully aware that their appearance has altered. Ever meet with someone you haven't seen in a couple of years and think "My, how you've changed!" That person doesn't think so as much. To them it's the same old face it has always been.

I've not heard that theory before!

Interesting idea, don't think it's too likely but interesting nevertheless

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forgot to say - thats a great picture

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I aggree it is an interesting idea, but why would the ghost appear as a skelton if they forget their appearence? Surely it would just sag a bit or something?

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or would they 'morph' into the way they feel they would appear in their own mind? A more idealized self.

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Yes it's an interesting idea, isn't it. Why do some ghosts appear as they ostensibly did in life, and why do some appear in the guise of the lead beast in a B-movie teen horror? Four possibilities spring to mind.

Maybe we are generating the ghosts subconciously, and therefore they are culturally biased (medieval China, for example, was plagued by apparitions of beautiful women with their feet on fire; medieval Europe by figures draped in their funeral weeds - and never the twain did meet).

Or the ghosts are real but their appearance is culturally defined, the same way a Christian priest looks markedly different from a Muslim imam, but they are basically the same thing (crappy and contentious example I know - forgive me, I'm tired)

Or the ghosts are real but they can alter their appearance for some capricious reasons of their own.

Or a ghost's appearance does actually change over time (as schadeaux suggests) regardless of what the ghost would like to think, similar to people developing wrinkles and grey hair and whathaveyou.

I don't actually know what I think. As I say, it's an interesting question.

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I think it is more likely to be the second reason, they are real and it is the way we percieve them to look, that gives them form the way they have.

if someone is expecting a ghost to look like the painting of them then that is how hey would appear, but if there is no defined look for the ghost, then they are not visible. Only when people start to unconsciously visualise what it is supposed to look like does the ghost become manifest.

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Althalus makes a very good point in this case. The story says that the skeleton of "Arturo" and his horse were uncovered a couple of days before the first sighting. Maybe that is why those that saw it perceived him as a skeletal figure.

But, why would he look like that on film? Did the perception of the photographer (and those around him) imprint on the film? Looked like a skeleton to me before I read the story.

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Yes, I think I agree with that.

It's a whole new can of worms we're opening, you realise. I mean, I imagine that plenty of people have seen a 'shadow being' without previously knowing what a 'shadow being' is supposed to look like. And the stories of ghosts whose identity has only been verified later are multitudinous - in the sense that someone sees a ghost which is unrecognisable to the viewer and only later does somebody point out that it had a facial scar in exactly the same place as uncle Harry. These ghosts are clearly not culturally defined.

Hmmm. Maybe culturally defined ghosts are the replay ghosts, and the 'discorporeal intelligences' are something else - ghosts with the ability to alter their appeareance. Obviously (obviously if we agree that there is some purpose behind a ghost) if they could do this they would want to appear to relatives and friends and ancestors in a form which allows them to be identified.

And a skeleton is a pretty good bet for a ghost who's out to frighten people for whatever reason. I used to work with a guy who frightened people by pretending to have a fit. He'd roll up his eyes and quiver. It was quite impressive. And people wear different clothes to project different impressions. Look at the affiliates of any major underground musical movement. I don't imagine ghosts are any less idiosyncratic when it comes to dealing with people.

EDIT: Sorry, It took me that long to write it that this post is in entirely the wrong spot in the thread.

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imposed thoughtography as well as a image that is highly doubtful because of its looking like a skeleton (well the skull of one anyway).

It is looking highly likely to me that this one is fake, or at least very, very unusual.

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replay ghosts are supposed to be the ones thast are imprinted on the surroundings as is, how they looked at rthe time of imprinting states what they appear as.

perhaps then that the ghost can sense somehow what we are thinking that it should look like and it alters its appearence accordingly.

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replay ghosts are supposed to be the ones thast are imprinted on the surroundings as is, how they looked at rthe time of imprinting states what they appear as.

Yes, I see what you mean, and I'm not quite prepared to dabble with notions of replay ghosts just yet.

But I still think the latter part of what I said holds water - that ghosts can be as idiosyncratic as anyone. I mean, they are a disembodied personalitys after all. Some days I wear my combat trousers, some days I wear my orange cords - that kind of thing.

If we agree that they actually are discorporeal intelligences, and we agree that they are capable of anything, psychically speaking, then we must surely agree that they could appear in any form that they see fit.

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good site, thank you, it lists a large number of ghost types, but I think that quite a few of te different types listed, could be put together under the same category.

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Good find schadeux! I've already bookmarked it. original.gif

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I can understand why ghosts which people see, "in the flesh" so to speak, seem to appear skull like, as the human brain has a great capacity to pattern match. If it doesn't know what it is seeing it will make you see what it thinks is the closest match. the most familiar thing to the brain is the basic frame of a face, which is based round the skull. I used to have very early '70s-tastic abstract patterned curtains as a kid and would spend a long time, before falling asleep, spotting faces in the patterns.

What his doesn't explain, as mentioned above, is why a camera would pick this up.

My beliefs about ghosts tend to err on the side of energy as opposed to spirits, and the only explaination for ghosts to show up in such detail on film would be (folllowing this train of thought) stone taping or 'replaying'. Otherwise all photos this detailed have to be fakes.

Hmm i'm very tired and rambling - i hope some of that made some sort of sense!

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Otherwise all photos this detailed have to be fakes.

Yes, that's a bit of sticking point isn't it. And I'm not too sure about the pattern matching theory. I agree that humans have a tremendous capacity to metamorphasize the unknown into the known, and to be fair a vast amount of purported 'ghost' photographs evince this - smudges on a window become a face, clouds become angels, smoke formations become demons...it doesn't take much scepticism to dismiss most supernatural photographs as willing misperceptions.

But they can't all be disregarded. Indded, in my opinion the theory of 'disembodied intelligences' fits the evidence the best. The cack-handed attempts of 'experts' to prove that ghosts are some temporal mechanism - the ever more desperate theories and experiments, the ridiculous assumptions that everybody who has een a ghost is either delusional or stupid - all of these disappear if we accept the simple explanation that ghosts are exactly what they are supposed to be, dead people who somehow manifest themselves to living people. So this is the assumption that I'm working from.

I think a lot of the time we seem to expect ghosts to be utterly other, in the sense that every aspect of the living person transmutes to something else at the point of death. If you believe, as I do, that a ghost is a discorporeal personality - then the vastly different ways in which ghosts appear makes a great deal of sense.

If you look at a busy town centre on a Saturday afternoon, everybody is wearing different clothes - some because they like them, some because they want to look tough, some because they are trying to be attractive, some because they want to show allegience to something - why should ghosts be any different?

If the personality doesn't die then even after death the personality is still the fickle, vain, and precocious thing that it always was. We only assume that ghosts should appear as they did in life because we are assuming that the ghost somehow retains some aspect of it's body - lame in life, lame in death. But imagine the personality let loose to appear in any way it sees fit...

And a large proportion of ghosts are either unaware or unwilling to accept that they are no longer corporeal - and these ghosts would, as the theory runs, appear as they did in life.

So. I suggest that our ghost here, in the Castello de la Rotta, manifests itself as a skeleton simply because it knows that it's a ghost and it wants to look a little frightening for some reason, possibly out of a desire to cause mischief. dontgetit.gif

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I must admit i'm not so quick to dissmiss the fact that ghost sightings could be due electromagnatism or somesuch. Like you, I definately don't believe that people who see apparitions are deluded or stupid, just witnesses to a phenomina that we have yet to understand. A scientific approach to working out what is really going on is vital if we are to understand ghosts. Indeed who is to say that electromagnetism doesn't effect the spirit/soul/personality/disembodied intelligence (delete as applicable) in a way which do not yet comprehend.

Temporal science inparticular could explain alot of sightings - there is a lot we do not understand about time and time spatial shifts could be key to some hauntings.

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whistling2.gif

the most familiar thing to the brain is the basic frame of a face, which is based round the skull

I like this Idea , has any body seen the brilliant edit done on the Steven Spielberg Movie's "Taken" where X-ray of the skull is used in such a way that it purposely conjures up thoughts of Aliens . Perhaps classifying this picture as Skull is relying to much on the subconsciense or reptillian brain .

Or as Shadeaux suggested that a discorpereal intelligence can forget its basic form , this of course would fit quite nicely into the frame work of the fuzzy sleep diagrams from the previous thread . thumbsup.gif

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Does anyone know the origin, please of the 'Arturo' ghost image? I've tried searches for info on who took it, in what circumstances, what did witnesses say and info about the alleged regular sightings and excavation of a man's skeleton at the site, along with the horse he is reputed to appear on? As it all happened around an excavation there would, presumably, be archeology/history records?

Also, I must say in looking at the photo the figure appears to have nose and mouth (shadow thrown by nose and not nasal holes visible) although there are odd dark blobs where eye sockets would be. Strangely one looks displaced so if this is a genuine photo of a manifesting figure, perhaps that's just how it is perceived on film?

Any info anyone?

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i cant see the pic......................... :angry:

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QUOTE

"the most familiar thing to the brain is the basic frame of a face, which is based round the skull."

Seeing faces in semi-random or random patterns(clouds,smoke,walls etc)is called pareidolia, and is a well-understood psychological phenomenon.

Pareidolia is a type of illusion or misperception involving a vague or obscure stimulus being perceived as something clear and distinct.

http://www.skepdic.com/pareidol.html

Edited by hazzard

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