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Ashley-Star*Child

Yom Kippur - The Atonement

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Ok whose joining me? No, seriously those of you who are Christian, what would you say to doing one of the very same fasts Jesus no doubt did (He DID practice Judiasm you know)? Think about it.

It begins with making right with everyone you've wronged, and on the actual day which goes for 25 hours from Sunset October 12th to 13th Sunset (plus one hour making it 25) you cannot eat, nor drink (no, not even water) nor wash. Basically you cannot enter ANYTHING in your mouth nor let ointments or even water touch you. Not even medications (unless it's very serious or life threatening). You also can't smoke (this is debatable, and even though I'm a heavy smoker I don't smoke for those 25 hours. It's HELL, it's not the food that bugs me, it's the thirst and not being able to smoke, I go to near collapse and feel like the living dead). You probably should wear white if you can. I'm not saying it's easy, far from it, but the point of it to to atone for your sins from the past year (or, your whole life if you've never done it) to start the year afresh.

To learn more about this go here:

http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday4.htm

It says there you have to go to the synangogue. I don't and it's not in my opinion necessary, just pray.

And no, no one sends a goat out into the wilderness to Azazel as a 'scapegoat' anymore. :P

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I dated a Jewish lady a few year ago and learned a little of your faith Ash. I found my self more at ease with Judaism then I did with Christianity. Coming from me I hope that means a little at least.

Shalom

Edited by zandore

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Does it really matter? Your sins are forgiven if you ask Jesus to forgive your sins right?

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Well, thank you for sharing that Zanodore. :) As probably everyone on here knows I was raised Catholic and started practicing Judaism with my family at 13 but incorporated the two (i.e. I still believe in Jesus, Mary etc). I too honestly felt more at ease with Judaism (besides the Jesus conflict), which is why I'm still practicing it today.

SuperPancake,

No, and No. This idea that instant atonement is recieved the minute you get 'saved' is completely false. Everyone still incurs judgement (even while you're still alive, it's not just in death). Like I've said before prior to Jesus everyone went to either Sheol/hell and after 7 years one year in each level, got reincarnated. No one bar prophets entered Heaven (prophets because they had, direct communication with God). Jesus sacrified Himself for the sins of those past getting them, ALL OF THEM out of hell and finally into Heaven and allowing the chance for future generations to even enter into Heaven, thereby literally being the 'Doorway to Heaven' as He said.

Jesus Himself did like I said Jewish fasts and the Atonement still stands.

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No, and No. This idea that instant atonement is recieved the minute you get 'saved' is completely false.

Jesus Himself did like I said Jewish fasts and the Atonement still stands.

Thanks for clearing that up!

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I'll do it with you Ashley.

I just have two questions about the fast: 1. I know you said your not even supposed to touch water, but if I go to the bath room is it okay to wash my hands? and 2. Jesus said while he was on Earth that those that follow him should shower and clean when they fast; he said something along the lines of heathens or other people who want praise for doing religious things keep themselves in dirtiness to show that they've fasted but his followers should remain clean and go about their daily routine while they fast so no one even notices they're fasting......what i'm asking is, what do you have to say about that in regards to Yom Kippur?

I'm gonna differ to what ever your opinion is since I consider you the token Bible expert around here, I'll do what you think we should do regarding my two questions, but I do need them answered. Thanks...

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oh yeah and one other question: What is the official hour of sunset on Oct 12th?

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not sure where ashley gets the idea you may not bathe; as long as you don't accidentally drink some water, it is fine. white is appropriate, and, also-very important, you may not wear animal skins, including leather shoes. so break out the sneakers. if it would injure your health, then it would be a sin to fast. thus, to fast with a health problem like that would violate "pekuach nefesh", which means, you should always save a life. there are only three laws you are forbidden to violate for pekuach nefesh.i am a diabetic, so i am forbidden. what i do instead is on my own, not for another, my answer, but i don't eat red meat that day, and don't work. the smoking prohibition is because full sabbath rules are in effect. don't work, don't write, light fires, etc. contrary to christian propaganda, you may ask god for forgiveness any day of the year. It is just because a special "window" to god, if you will, opens on Yom Kippur. Yeshu himself is noted celebrating all the holidays, even Hannukah, which was barely 200 years at his time and thus, very new.

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Posted (edited)

:tu: That's great TheEssenceofExcellence!

The idea not to bathe is for traditionalist Judaism which comes from the Talmud. I personally find that part very irritating as I'm what could be termed a 'chronic hand washer' lol....but if you feel that it's ok to do so then do. I think what Jesus was trying to get at is that by not washing they were 'showing off' that they were fasting which wasn't what the intent of it, which in the context of what He said about recieving praise for fasting, outward signs of doing so should be avoided.

The official hour of sunset depends on where you live (I take it from the Weather Channel lol) but traditionally it's when the sun first sets at least 3 stars are visible.

since I consider you the token Bible expert around here

Thank you :)

Gideon,

Like I just finished saying it came from the Talmud. Not wearing leather etc are in the link, I was just giving a general guideline of what it was about. While it's true that you can ask for fogiveness any day of the year, Atonement is the one day of the year where you can begin again. This is the actual annual day of judgement. Also I did advise that if there is a risk to your health not to fast.

I have no idea where this came from:

contrary to christian propaganda, you may ask god for forgiveness any day of the year

Christian's don't have any date for judgement, this is a Jewish day, something that got lost in Christianity.

Edited by Ashley-Star*Child

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deleted ....wrong place ....sorry

Edited by leo_lunar_tick

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Leo this is not the section for debating.

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Leo this is not the section for debating.

thanx 4 that ...fixed it !!!

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Leo

Believers had to have a place to go from us nonbelievers. This is there place/section :tu:

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Ok whose joining me? No, seriously those of you who are Christian, what would you say to doing one of the very same fasts Jesus no doubt did (He DID practice Judiasm you know)? Think about it.

I thought about it (already months ago) and I'm in! Great to see that there are more christians who do this. It would be great to share our experiences on the day after.

It begins with making right with everyone you've wronged, and on the actual day which goes for 25 hours from Sunset October 12th to 13th Sunset (plus one hour making it 25) you cannot eat, nor drink (no, not even water) nor wash. Basically you cannot enter ANYTHING in your mouth nor let ointments or even water touch you. Not even medications (unless it's very serious or life threatening). You also can't smoke (this is debatable, and even though I'm a heavy smoker I don't smoke for those 25 hours. It's HELL, it's not the food that bugs me, it's the thirst and not being able to smoke, I go to near collapse and feel like the living dead). You probably should wear white if you can. I'm not saying it's easy, far from it, but the point of it to to atone for your sins from the past year (or, your whole life if you've never done it) to start the year afresh.

I've been preparing for the day in the latest weeks or so. I had some difficult conversations with some people with whom I was having trouble. It all worked out very well. And every time I pray the our father, the part about forgiving sins is starting to live more and more.

It says there you have to go to the synangogue. I don't and it's not in my opinion necessary, just pray.

Actually, there might be a small possibility for me to go to synagogue tomorrow during the day (not tonight). But it depends on if the wife of the jewish man I know, will go, and she has cardiac problems. The fasting is very harsh for her and probably she'll stay at home. Due to safety measures it is not possible to enter the synagogue when they don't know you and this man cannot go upstairs to the women's part to introduce me. But we'll see ... I'm a catholic and tonight and in the end of the afternoon tomorrow I'll go to Mass. I've decided to take communion even though I don't drink or eat otherwise. This is one of the most important things in my belief, it brings me really close to God (and that's what this day is about, isn't it). So it is not exactly according to all the rules. Anyway, I won't use the computer, nor watch television or listen to music. Most of the day I'll be praying, meditating and reading in the bible or in the Imitation of Christ (Thomas a Kempis).

Well, just a few hours to go for me now (I'm in Europe) .. when I've returned from work at around 5.15 PM, I'll take a shower, eat (muesli, which I usually take for breakfast, because it does not contain any added salt or spices), drink plenty of water and brush my teeth. From 6.35 PM I won't eat (except for communion), drink or wash until 7.35 PM tomorrow (those hours I took from a Dutch jewish website, they probably don't match with the proper times in the States). I never smoke, but I use to drink loads of water and tea (appr. 3 liters/day), so the thirst will be most difficult to cope with. Actually, I'm thinking of all those poor people in Pakistan and India who are still in between the collapsed buildings after the earthquake and literally dying because of thirst. I think my prayer for them will become more intensive tomorrow, though what I'll face won't be ánything compared to the hell they are going through :(

OK, for all people who will join: good luck, I wish you a very spiritual time and let's share our experiences over here later on!

Edited by Edith

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That's great to hear Edith :) (and I think Communion is ok, personally). I'm 15 hours into it where I live...and I am using the computer :blush: probably shouldn't be though....

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Hi Ashley, you still haven't had 'breakfast' (what's in a name ..) I think. I have; over here it's 10.30 PM. The day was very special, though completely different than I thought it would be. The fasting itself wasn't half as hard as I would have expected! No headache, no killing thirst, nothing! I even went to a pub with someone after Mass this afternoon! While she was having a cold beer (and I drank nothing, it was around 6 PM), we were having a complicated theological discussion, with the bible on the table (people were looking at us as if we were completely crazy ;))

Yesterday when I came from work, I really had to hurry to get everything done in time. It was a very good idea to eat muesli and not a hot meal. I think this saved me from a lot of thirst (no salt, a lot of water). What did you eat before sunset? In the evening during Mass, I felt it wouldn't be good to take communion, despite what I thought first. During the Kyrie it crossed my mind .. strange, but I decided not to go and it was the right decision. One lady whom I see often in church (the same who was having the cold beer today) told after Mass that she was very concerned, she thought that I had committed a mortal sin, LOL!

This morning I was at home, meditating and praying. The feeling of hunger was not really there, but around noon, I got the metallic taste of fasting in my mouth (ketones, the same you get when doing Atkins). Unfortunately, the jewish acquaintance didn't contact me, so I wasn't able to go to synagogue. We're having a lovely indian summer over here, so in the afternoon I went into town and sat in the sunshine on a bench with my bible. I read a.o. Paul's letter to the Romans (very appropriate, and the catholic church also uses it in their liturgy in this week). I got some interesting new insights when (re)reading this letter - but I'll have to do some extra study (looking at the text in Greek) to investigate this further.

At 5PM I went to mass again. Now certainly it felt not good taking communion, also because it physically would break my fasting (even the smallest amount of carbohydrates, even in the Body of Christ, will take the ketones away). During consecration I got a very deep feeling of Christ being present. It was as if my third eye opened up when the priest raised the Host toward me. Hard to explain, but I'm sure that the day with fasting, prayer and meditation had helped me to be so open to this. After Mass I waited for this lady whom I went to a pub with (see above). Around 7 PM I was home again and had plenty of time to prepare for the end of the day. At 7.30 PM I listened to the shofar and to the Shema (which I have on CD) and then the first glass of water .. I drank almost 2 liters since then and still haven't been to the restroom!

Yom Kippur is also regarded as shabbat, so the regular shabbat rules apply. To deepen the experience, I included them as much as possible (and as far as I know them, belonging to the goyim). I wasn't completely succesful in this ... The candles that I lit in the evening (and I had no electric lights on, because I wouldn't be allowed to switch them off before going to bed) weren't safe enough to keep on all night, so I had to extinguish them. And I got a phonecall, which of course I answered, LOL :no::innocent: Also I did wáy too much traveling (by bike). Anyway, it made me think about things that I usually do without any thought at all (wanted to push the button for bikers at the traffic lights ... Mmm, no, either wait for someone or cross the red light ... now guess what I did :devil: ).

OK, this was my day. It was not as spiritual as I would have expected it to be, except for what happened at Mass this afternoon. But the bible reading and discussion were interesting and important for the development of my faith (in a more rational way). Also I felt solidarity with the jews and muslims (the latter having ramadan). I'll do it again next year, and then I'm pretty sure that I'll be able to go to synagogue. That will add up to the experience (especially because I'll know some Hebrew by then, the latest weeks I've been studying very hard on the alef beth, as a good start ;))

I'm very curious to hear about your day. This wasn't the first time for you, was it? For me, actually, it was the first fasting (for religious reasons) ever. Now I'm sure that I want to do the catholic fasting before Easter too.

Edited by Edith

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The time before sunset, before the fasting began, I made sure to drink a lot of water (I probably drank 4 or 5 glasses) I also ate a hot pocket and some chicken in the morning....later I ate a bowl of beef stew. Then I drank one more glass of water a few minutes before sunset. After that my fast began.

I went to bed and then woke up around 8:40 am. As soon as I woke up I went right into the bible. I read the 3rd book of the old testament: Leviticus. I hadn't read that book before and it turned out the rules of Yom Kippur were part of that book which was cool. I read around 10 chapters of it, then I read a few pages of the book of Enoch, after that I started reading some stuff in this book I have called The Genesis Meditations. I read some in that book, then I did the meditation that followed it. Then I read some more, and did the next meditation. Then I read some more and did the meditation that followed that text. After that I turned on the church channel and watched a few preachers on tv. After that, I read some more of Leviticus. I got to chapter 25 and stopped. Then I watched the 700 club on tv (which had some good news and inspirational stuff on it, including a retired soldier who told about a dove that stayed with him for 10 days during the Yom Kippur war in 1973....it turns out the dove stayed with the man and his unit for 10 days, day and night, and during that time none of those in his unit were killed or injured). Once that show ended, I read the rest of Leviticus.

Then I prayed for a while... Sat in the quiet. I watched some news and then a little more of the church channel again. Then later on I layed down and meditated a little bit more. And that's basically how my day went. I didn't feel that hungry or thirsty either....By the time it was okay to drink and eat again I really didn't have the urge to, but I did anyway.

I thought it was a pretty good day, but it was my first time doing it, I think next year will be better.

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Hi TheEssenceofExcellence, nice to read about your experience. Also you had some thorough bible study, I see :) I read the part of Leviticus about Yom Kippur (chapter 6, I think) too, but nothing from the Torah otherwise.

I just have two questions about the fast: 1. I know you said your not even supposed to touch water, but if I go to the bath room is it okay to wash my hands? and 2. Jesus said while he was on Earth that those that follow him should shower and clean when they fast; he said something along the lines of heathens or other people who want praise for doing religious things keep themselves in dirtiness to show that they've fasted but his followers should remain clean and go about their daily routine while they fast so no one even notices they're fasting......what i'm asking is, what do you have to say about that in regards to Yom Kippur?

I think this rule was meant for people who took a non-regular fast. On Yom Kippur everyone was fasting in Palestine 2000 years ago, so then it didn't matter if people saw it. Which doesn't mean that you have to frown and complain about how hard it is (I think that's what Jesus meant).

Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

(Matthew 6:16-18)

Just before Yom Kippur started, I took a shower, put on deodorant, brushed my teeth and also put gel in my hair (as I always do) to make sure that the fasting wouldn't be visible from the way I looked or smelled. Also I read this part of Matthew on the day before yesterday, just to make sure that I didn't tell to too many people what I was doing. I can get a bit overly enthusiastic and tell even to people who either don't understand or don't care. Now I only talked with a few people who are interested in my experience and know that I'm not saying it to them for boasting or anything. It will be the same thing this spring during the 40 days before Easter, I just won't mention anything and if people ask, I won't go into details. Why should I, it's a matter between God and me, as long as my job doesn't suffer from it (then my boss will be involved as well ..). I'll adapt to the circumstances, e.g. when I have a business diner, I'll participate, but not eat anything else that day.

Edited by Edith

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Edith and EssenceofExellence,

Good to hear you didn't have too much difficulty with the fast, and seeing as it's the first time you've done it, you both did really well. You did everything right first time around. This isn't the first time I've done this (I've been doing it since I was 13) but last year I did it with a bad cold and it left me very deydrated to the point of nearly passing out (so, if you plan to do it in future, probably don't do it if you feel sick).

I had pasta and drank like a fish for the last half an hour before the fast, and can't say I was all that hungry the next day, or thirsty (did miss the smoking though!). I did brush my teeth etc before the fast also. When it came to eating and drinking again...and even smoking can't say I really felt like it, and when I did have a smoke when it finished I got really dizzy lol. I didn't go to church or the synagogue (I never have for this fast) I just pray at home (I have a religious shrine here at my house). The major thing is to remember on that day why you're fasting (as a last chance for that year's forgiveness of sins as the judgement gets sealed until the next year. A chance to start over again) which I'm sure you all did. It was a very quiet day for me and I can't say it was all that bad, but time did go very s-l-o-o-w especially since I found myself waking up at 6am lol. I do have the shofar here on CD too, but I can't find it....so....I missed out on that....but it's good that you had it handy Edith.

Interesting that you read Enoch with Leviticus EoE as they are related as you no doubt found.

And Edith tha was pretty brave riding a bike when you haven't eaten and can't even drink water! I know I'd be dying of thirst....

All in all, I'd say you both did it a bit better than I did....and I'm glad to hear you'd like to do it again next year. :)

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Hi Ashley,

Thanks for your update. You said we did it better .. Well, the only thing is the smoking: it's better not to smoke at all! :P For the rest, it seems to me that you prepared pretty well, like we did. Regarding the cold that you had last year: isn't it even forbidden to fast when you're ill, not to jeopardize your health?

You said that you did this fast since you were 13. Does your family participate as well, or are you the only one?

Regarding the forgiveness of sins: I've decided to start with a method of teshuva which Rabbi Rami M. Shapiro wrote about in his book Minyan. It consists of writing down the things you did well and wrong at the end of the day, to become more concious of your habbits. This also gives you the opportunity to improve slowly. We often make the same mistakes over and over again and when you see them written down, it's more confronting than thinking 'mmm, OK, there we go again'. It's a bit like the oldfashioned catholic way (which I didn't grow up with by the way) of overthinking your sins every evening and before confession. But the big difference is, that you álso think about the things you did well, or did better than last time. This is also important not to get depressed because of your sinful nature (which is a problem in certain christian denominations, who keep on stressing your sins and never talk about the good things and the improvements). Keep in mind that God loves you and will forgive you, and don't get depressed because you don't get things right the first time :)

And Edith tha was pretty brave riding a bike when you haven't eaten and can't even drink water! I know I'd be dying of thirst....

Hahaha, I think you've never been in the Netherlands ... You know, our country is "as flat as a dime", like we use to say in Dutch :) Now I live in one of the cities which has a few hills, but only in one part of the city and I didn't have to go there (fortunately .. there's a convent on top of that hill and I don't think I had wanted to go to Mass there on Thursday afternoon). I biked véry slowly and didn't sweat at all. In the evening, directly after eating and drinking I had to rush to an appointment (also by bike, because I don't have a car) and the food and drink were enough for me to be on my regular speed (~20 km/h) again without getting dizzy.

Edited by Edith

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