Are legendary "dragons" really dinosaurs?

[Piney]

[quote name='draconic chronicler' date='Dec 15 2005, 10:50 PM' post='978150'

No Piney, I certainly am not making it up as I go along. Those anthropologists you cite interviewed native americans in the modern period of the 1920s, when of course, they are going to say the Spanish brought the horses to America. See what they said 100 years earlier in the 1830's when the first anthropologists interviewed them.

They tribes of the Plains only had 2 visitors who recorded their lifestyle in the 1830s. Everybody else was out to kill them. The Blackhawk War had started in 1832 and no whitemen really wandered around much past Sauk and Fox territory because of it, other then trappers. So name the TWO people who recorded them. I will give you a hint. They DID NOT write any of the Plains tribes history or stories down. They recorded them in other ways.....

Lapi'che

[Yelekiah]

You, DC, unlike the people all around the world (according to you), don't believe in dragons. This amazes me.

It may hinder the book, considering that your "evidence" is mainly based on a text you don't believe in.

Edited December 16, 2005 by Yelekiah

[Kaizen]

At Dixon Mounds here in Illinois, there is a mural depicting mythical creatures of the Native American "Underworld" and I noticed that one of these creatures looks very much like an Oriental dragon with the feet of a bird. Interesting, isn't it?

Edited December 16, 2005 by Kaizen

[Vidgange]

At Dixon Mounds here in Illinois, there is a mural depicting mythical creatures of the Native American "Underworld" and I noticed that one of these creatures looks very much like an Oriental dragon with the feet of a bird. Interesting, isn't it?

Hey, cool! do u think u can take a picture of it and post it here?

[Kaizen]

Hey, cool! do u think u can take a picture of it and post it here?

I probably won't get a chance to go there untill later next year (if I get a chance next year at all). But when I do I'll be sure to bring my digicam.

Basicly, it looked like a lizard with feet that distincly looked like a hawk's or some other kind of bird. I can't remember if it had wings or not. I think their underworld was believed to be a spiritual realm that existed underwater and was full of strange monsters. So this creature might have been aquatic. Dragon or not, it was definatly a mythical reptile of some sort.

It was painted on a wall in the museam, and I think near the entrance burial ground room. You used to be able to see the skeletons, but natives protested so now they're covered up.

Edited December 16, 2005 by Kaizen

[draconic chronicler]

Vidgange,

If you get the history channel in Sweeden, that show last night showed many native american representations of reptilian "dragons" most with wings, but some without, and most did have associations with bodies of water. This may be Piney's water cougar. This association with water is prevalent in dragon legends all around the world, and it is no coincidence that we still have them today, but no longer call them "dragon". There is even a "dragon's pool" mentioned in the Bible.

Piney, many of the earliest anthropoligists who studied the plains Indians and recorded their legends were Europeans, and interestingly, some of the finest collections of Native American historic-era artifacts reside in these collections. There is even a big hobby group of Europeans who "reenact" the lives of the Native Americans, meticulously duplicating the museum artifacts in the european museums. It always amuses me to see "real indians" at pow wows (we recently had one on our base in fact), with their modern tribal costumes with their unnatural flourescent feathers and oriental imported accessories, and compare them with the Euroindians in their incredibly authentic productions of real native american costume.

Yelekiah, I think you should remain on the spirituality section of UM since you presume to have divined my my religious beliefs, something which I have never stated here. Do you also communicate with aliens?

[Piney]

,Piney, many of the earliest anthropoligists who studied the plains Indians and recorded their legends were Europeans, and interestingly, some of the finest collections of Native American historic-era artifacts reside in these collections. There is even a big hobby group of Europeans who "reenact" the lives of the Native Americans, meticulously duplicating the museum artifacts in the european museums. It always amuses me to see "real indians" at pow wows (we recently had one on our base in fact), with their modern tribal costumes with their unnatural flourescent feathers and oriental imported accessories, and compare them with the Euroindians in their incredibly authentic productions of real native american costume.

Name theses anthropologists. The term did not exist then. Your avoiding the question and making things up. There were only two people who recorded they 'plains' lifestyle in the 1830s and one was European. Tell me his name. At least tell me his name.

The Largest collection of artifacts is the Museum of the American Indian in New York. The Heye Foundation. I have access to their library

The reenactment groups you talk about are the "German Friends of the Lakota" and the "Coastal Algonquians" in Russia. They do not make " museum quality replicas". I am friendly with both groups.

49ing and fancy dancing have nothing to do with authenticity. It is a strictly modern form.

You are bordering on racism by implying that Europeans are more knowledgable about Native Americans than the Native Americans themselves.

Lapi'che

edit: butterfingers.......

Edited December 16, 2005 by Piney

[Vidgange]

Vidgange,

If you get the history channel in Sweeden, that show last night showed many native american representations of reptilian "dragons" most with wings, but some without, and most did have associations with bodies of water. This may be Piney's water cougar. This association with water is prevalent in dragon legends all around the world, and it is no coincidence that we still have them today, but no longer call them "dragon". There is even a "dragon's pool" mentioned in the Bible.

No, unfortunetly I don't get the History Chanel over here - I'd wish though!

I'm starting to wonder what defines dragons... What must a creature have to be exepted as a Dragon?

[zandore]

Well, he has refered to old biblical texts, can't remember the books name right now, and in my opinion the internet is not a good source for good evidence

Yes and no. One must look at a second, third or even a fourth source and if what you are finding is consistent.....then you can start to trust what you find.

Hehe, yeah I know it sounds kinda silly, and I don't believe in Dragons, and have never stated I do.

Among other things he has said.

However I believe DC when he says that manytime when hte bible refer to angels it's realy dragons...

If I said that the moon was going to turn to green cheese tonight would you believe it on just my word alone?

I'll wait to critizes his sources untill I've read the book and looked up the sources

HEY VID! Guess what.......The moon is going to turn into green cheese tonight!

Are you starting to understand what I am saying?

[zandore]

First off: don't start to insult again. If you feel DC is doing it; be the better man and ignore it...

There is a difference between insulting and stating an opinion.

Now, if they indeed did find dinobones, wouldn't they save it and display it? That would be the logical thing to do. But, as far as I know, there haven't been any proof of this. Nowhere can we see that ancient ppl infact dug up dinobones, .....

If the people that found them (dino bones) were scared enough to think and make up dragons how or WHY would they dare to dig them up?

Humans everywhere believed dragons were real,

I think I am going to start a poll asking that very question in the "Cryptozoology, Myths and Legends" section.

Check it out.

Yelekiah, I think you should remain on the spirituality section of UM since you presume to have divined my my religious beliefs, something which I have never stated here. Do you also communicate with aliens?

AH the joys of an open forum

You are bordering on racism by implying that Europeans are more knowledgable about Native Americans than the Native Americans themselves.

Thank you for pointing that out to him.

Now I am off to make that poll

[Kaizen]

So is the word "Dragon" just a broad term for just about any mythical reptillian creature with magical/spiritual properties?

[draconic chronicler]

Maizen,

I would say "yes", as they do vary from culture to culture but still share many similarities.

Zandore,

Your being just plain dumb now to say I am making this all up. I have mentioned many sources in many posts, and you are free to look any of them up. I cannot prove dragons actually existed no more than anyone can prove any spiritual entity ever existed, but it is beyond any doubt that Biblical creatures now taken for granted as "humanoid angels" were originally believed to be winged reptilian creatures we commonly refer to as dragons today. If you look at the many posts on these subjects you will see many other people were already familiar with many of the same things I have mentioned, so how could I have made them up? I am beginning to think you are more childish and immature than even frogfish.

Piney, the 1830's saw the beginning of the scientific studies into the plains cultures and continued into the 40's and 50's. I am quite astonished you are unaware of the major European collections obtained during those times. I am also quite amused that you think I am making this up. You want me to name just one European scientist that studied the Plains tribes in the 1830's, okay Maximillian Prince of Wied Neuwied, active on the plains in 1833, and who wrote of his experiences in the 184Os. Maybe you even have his accounts in library where you work. He was just one of a long procession of Europeans who traveled to the west in those times, and brought back amazing collections from this early period.

You are incredibly Naive of the European Plains Indian Reconstruction groups if those are the only two you have heard of. That is just the tip of the iceberg, and yes, I have spent a lot lof time with them, and I have also seen a lot of modern Native American pow-wow regalia. And yes, these Europeans very often do a far better job, with things like natural dyed porcupine quill work compared to seed beads made in Taiwan used by so many "authentic" native Americans. I have attended European "Indian" events with literally hundreds of lodges and thousands of participants. You simply have no idea. I am a museum curator and historian by profession with an interest in these things and quite aware of what authentic Native American artifacts should look like.

Oh, and contrary to your claims that no Native (North) American tribes had winged reptilian dragons in their religions, the PHD anthropologist that demonstrated that they virtually all did, complete with a wide array of oriignal artifacts to demonstrate this, is Dr. David Jones. Perhaps you can contact him through the History Channel and tell him how much more you know about the subject (and you can tell him that all of the Indian artifacts with dragons he showed from dozens of museums around the country are all obvious fakes. After all he's a PHD Anthropologist specializing in Native American cultures who has studied these dragon legends for years, but you obviously know more because of your heritage, right?

[Yelekiah]

Yelekiah, I think you should remain on the spirituality section of UM since you presume to have divined my my religious beliefs, something which I have never stated here.

Actually, you have. You said the serpent was more honorable than God (bashing God pretty much), and you also said that IF the Bible was real, then dragons would be, etc. Which you always say btw. But I'm only saying this because you mentioned spirituality.

Do you also communicate with aliens?

If you mean Mexicans, yes...I do.

PS-We're in the Paleo section... No proof dragons exist

Edited December 17, 2005 by Yelekiah

[Piney]

Prince Maximillian or his personal artist Karl Bodmer did not record any legends. I want the person who recorded the 'horse legends' you stated. Maximillian was there for hunting and collecting natural specimens. I want to know who recorded the legends?

I just stated I am a librarian with a history degree and active with the AFSC cultural restoration committee. You are really getting racist now.........

Lapi'che

[Fluffybunny]

Holy cow.

All of the native american legends refer to them coming from another tribe, which they assume always had them. None, to my knowledge imply that they believed the horses were brought by the Europeans.

Where do you get this from? Again and again you make hard and fast claims in response to Pineys well thought out and supported statements but offer no support of your own.

Worse yet, you make claims that are unsupported and paint NA legends with a broad brush that shows you do not have the knowledge of NA history that Piney does.

Without a doubt you have convinced yourself that you are correct and are willing to bend every bit of history you come across to support your beliefs regardless of evidence to the contrary. You can believe that every Native American tribe had a flock of dragons parked outside of their hogans, but that does not make it so.

To come here and repaint Native American history(incorrectly no less) with such a condescending attitude it so incredibly offensive that I am astounded by your attitude.

Belive whatever you wish, but at least have enough respect of other cultures to explain that "In your opinion" certain creatures could be interpreted as a dragon. To speak in the absolutes that I have seen you do here is just a horrible offense to those that know and lived the culture.

[Kaizen]

I'm trying to find sites to back up DCs claims. Haven't had much luck so far...

I noticed that alot of mythical creatures take on many different forms. So have unicorns, infact the modern horse-like appearence is wrong. Their appearence had a lot more incommon with antelopes and goats.

Edited December 18, 2005 by Kaizen

[Megalomania]

I'm trying to find sites to back up DCs claims. Haven't had much luck so far but I did find THIS.

I noticed that alot of mythical creatures take on many different forms. So have unicorns, infact the modern horse-like appearence is wrong. Their appearence had a lot more incommon with antelopes and goats.

Unicorns were based of Narwhales.

And that site really isn't any help. Just because it's on the internet, doesn't mean its true.

Even stuff on reliable sites (like BBC, and other other news sites) can be incorrect because of bias.

Please, in future, only post reliable sources.

[Fluffybunny]

David E. Jones is a person with a great deal of time invested into finding dragons throughout different cultures and he makes some very good points. I don’t think that he is off base at all, he has a great deal of evidence to support his claims. He seems like a pretty nice guy as well. There is not a single note of condescension in his work, it is rather refreshing.

After reading through your posts I was beginning to think that all dragon supporters were incredibly pompous and annoying. It is good news to find out that is not the case. Perhaps we can contact him and see if he’d be willing to come here to make the same point you are; only without redefining arrogance in the process.

I can't seem to find anywhere in his book(Instinct for dragons) where he says that virtually all Native American tribes had a winged reptilian dragon, could you narrow that down a bit? He finds many references in many cultures, but I just am not finding the claim that you just made. Perhaps you would care to be more specific and not generalize on ANOTHER persons work? Where can I find that statement?

As far as I can tell the closest thing to dragons in the artwork that I have seen on pottery on the Navajo nation looks a great deal like a NM whiptail lizard...I guess it could be an anorexic gecko...Not a wing in sight...Although if you squint just right Kokopelli looks a lot like the dragon in Harry Potter...

If you want it to be a dragon, then go ahead and knock yourself out; you can pretend it is whatever you wish it to be...may you be happy with your dragons; I hope they are able to calm your nerves a bit, you seem rather edgy. I guess dragon hunting will do that for you.

[Vidgange]

(Vidgange @ Dec 15 2005, 04:55 PM) *

Well, he has refered to old biblical texts, can't remember the books name right now, and in my opinion the internet is not a good source for good evidence wink2.gif

Yes and no. One must look at a second, third or even a fourth source and if what you are finding is consistent.....then you can start to trust what you find.

Internet is not a good source. If you want confirmation of an already stated arguement you might turn to the net, however it is never good as an original source, unless the same text/source can be located elsewhere. If you were to do a scientific report, of what ever subjetct, only using the internet - you would probebly be laughed at! During high school you might get of with it, but not on college or university...

Hehe, yeah I know it sounds kinda silly, and I don't believe in Dragons, and have never stated I do.

thumbsup.gif Among other things he has said.

However I believe DC when he says that manytime when hte bible refer to angels it's realy dragons...

If I said that the moon was going to turn to green cheese tonight would you believe it on just my word alone?

As I said before; i'm a historian student myself, and reading DC's evidence and sources (such as biblical books of different kinds, and the inspiration sources of theis) I can't deny it sounds as if Dragons are an often occuring phenomenon in the Bible. However, I am not convinced regarding the Native Americans dragons, which DC seem to be.

I'll wait to critizes his sources untill I've read the book and looked up the sources

HEY VID! Guess what.......The moon is going to turn into green cheese tonight! thumbsup.gif

Do you have evidence such as DC has provided, regarding the BIBLICAL dragons (NOT the native americans)?

Are you starting to understand what I am saying?

Are u starting to see mine?

Now, if they indeed did find dinobones, wouldn't they save it and display it? That would be the logical thing to do. But, as far as I know, there haven't been any proof of this. Nowhere can we see that ancient ppl infact dug up dinobones, .....

If the people that found them (dino bones) were scared enough to think and make up dragons how or WHY would they dare to dig them up?

Why they would dig them up? can you imagen the GLORY one would get for slaying such a beast?! People have always keept truphies, and why would dinobones be an exeption? If I were an ancient warrior, or any man at all for that matter, and found some HUGE bones of an unknown creature, that looked that terrefying I'd sure as hell say that I killed the monster and get all the fame I could handle...

[draconic chronicler]

Fluffy, if you saw the program as I would assume from your posts, then it was quite clear that Dr. Jones showed examples of Native American dragon entities from all regions of what is now the United States. If you indeed have read all of the "dragon" posts then you will see that it was Piney that the made the broad statement that there were no dragons in any North American native cultures.

No, I do not believe I have ever said anything about "claiming to be a dragon". Now you are the condescending one. I do know that in our modern world there are people with those kinds of beliefs though. If you have read my posts as you claim, you would know that the point I am making it that virtually every human culture believes/once believed in dragons, just as Jones pointed out, (and Piney denied) in many/most of the Native American cultures.

What has caused the most controversey in these discussions is the fact that many people are surprised and annoyed at how much "dragons" were also once such a major part of Judao Christian theology, which has been the subject of a "cover-up" in modern times to hide that fact. There would seem to be an attempt by some to "cover-up" the "dragons" in Native American cultures as well since they are generally acknowledge today to be mythical creatures, and in our politically correct world, Native Americans are now painted to be the most intelligent people that ever existed, so surely would not believe in mythical dragons like the rest of the world. It reminds me of the covering-up of the fact that the Native Americans exterminated the horse in America, using it as a food source, and it was only with the return of the horse with the Europeans, that they understood they could also be used as domesticated "riding" animals, and not just driven off cliffs to be slaughtered like buffalo.

[frogfish]

DC, you seem to say that all reptiles are dragons...Not every culture believed in dragons. Hinduism uses snakes to portray a lo of different stuff...just because they have scales doesn't mean THEY ARE DRAGONS! The native American "dragons" look a lot just like the lizards and snakes found throughout America...correct me if I am wrong Piney. Also, you insist that Your dragon is Pineys watercougar...why can't Piney's watercougar be your dragon. There is a difference between myth and real...between unicorns and narwhals, and dragons and lizrads/snakes!

I wouls also like to say that Piasa means "bird..."...correct me if I am wrong again Piney....But from DC's ego and loic, he'll say birds are dragons..

I just think you should stop calling your pet gecko a dragon.

[Piney]

It reminds me of the covering-up of the fact that the Native Americans exterminated the horse in America, using it as a food source, and it was only with the return of the horse with the Europeans, that they understood they could also be used as domesticated "riding" animals, and not just driven off cliffs to be slaughtered like buffalo.

Explain this very racist statment supplying sources. According to modern research the ice age horses of North America was wiped out by a natural disaster. Roughly 15,000 to 20,000 years ago and it was the same combination of disasters which wiped out the Clovis People. Also provide me with a link or source for a "kill site" where such slaughter took place.

Lapi'che

[Piney]

Fluffy, if you saw the program as I would assume from your posts, then it was quite clear that Dr. Jones showed examples of Native American dragon entities from all regions of what is now the United States. If you indeed have read all of the "dragon" posts then you will see that it was Piney that the made the broad statement that there were no dragons in any North American native cultures.

Horned Rattlesnakes, Hopi (Anasazi) lizards, and fishscale covered watercougars are not dragons. They do not fly, nor breath fire. If you means 'mythological reptiles'. Of course we had different mythological reptiles. All cultures do. But they are not dragons under the definition. Now provide me with some sources because Maximillian wanted to hunt and Bodmer wanted to paint. Stop beating around the bush and provide a source.

Lapi'che

Edit: butterfingers again.........LOL!

Edited December 17, 2005 by Piney

[Piney]

DC, you seem to say that all reptiles are dragons...Not every culture believed in dragons. Hinduism uses snakes to portray a lo of different stuff...just because they have scales doesn't mean THEY ARE DRAGONS! The native American "dragons" look a lot just like the lizards and snakes found throughout America...correct me if I am wrong Piney. Also, you insist that Your dragon is Pineys watercougar...why can't Piney's watercougar be your dragon. There is a difference between myth and real...between unicorns and narwhals, and dragons and lizrads/snakes!

You are right on all accounts.

Piasa is a Spanish mispronounciation of something but the Spaniards were more interested in gold and land grabbing to be real specific or accurate. The picture according to the Siouian tribes portrayed a 'Unktihila' or 'Water cougar'.

Lapi'che

[Kaizen]

Unicorns were based of Narwhales.

And that site really isn't any help. Just because it's on the internet, doesn't mean its true.

Even stuff on reliable sites (like BBC, and other other news sites) can be incorrect because of bias.

I don't need to be told. I'm perfectly well aware of that. I said I wasn't having any luck finding something to back up DC's claims, didn't I?

I do think "dragon" is just a broad term. They are creatures of the mind, just like anyother mythical animal and don't come just one specific form. I could probably point at any "magical" or nonworldly reptile and in artwork and say "That is a dragon!" and get by with it because it is open to interpitation.

And no, unicorns weren't based on narwhales. Narwhale horns were falsly claimed to be unicorn horns, yes. But unicorns were actually based on atillopes sited by Europeans in ancient times.

Edited December 18, 2005 by Kaizen