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AtlantisRises

Who created Who

17 posts in this topic

I was recently reading some works of the great philosiphers (notably William Archer, Michel de Monaigne and Arthur C Clarke) and found that many of them all of whom lived at quite different times all had very simmilar thoughts. They all gravitated to one great question : Did god create man, or did man create god. And in some of the truly great instances they even went so far as to say that if man made god does that make god any less real.

In reading some of this i found a quote that for the first time might discribe my difficulty in recognising god.

"My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own image to be servants of their human interests."

(George Santayana / 1863-1952)

This seems to me the greatest idea i have heard in a long time. I thought to myself. Is the reason i can't believe in god because the god that is so often described to me to similar to myself and my fellow man.

Then i thought that perhaps as has been said on this site god was never meant to be violent the followers of god commited the atrocities and lastly i started to think perhaps then if god is truly made in mans image than it is man himself that has made god so seemingly mighty and powerful. PErhaps our belief was so powerful that it swayed god into becoming the violent despot that he is often portrayed at even in the Bible it self.

This then led me to understand all religions better as if god was created by man then can he not be destroyed by man. Does this not explain the births and deaths of religions over many millenium. If we today have created a god then could nopt the Egyptians and the Greeks, the Mayans and the Buddhists have created their own gods. And could not their gods have been destroyed by a lack of belief. As i said by numerous writers throughout time. The loneliest of beings is the god without belief.

And if a god can be created by many then what of the few or the one. Can i create my own god and believe in my own form of heaven. Is my god any less true then that of the Christians. Indeed is it possible that through belief a god can even change. The Jewish god becomes the Christian god becomes the Islamic god becomes the god that today is losing believers by the score.

Lastly the thought occured that if god was created by we then does that not mean that god is not all powerful. For if god was created by me then do i not have power over my creation much as the Christians claim thier creator has power over them.

Anyway please read this thread and give me the accumulation of your own knowledge. Submit to me your beliefs. I am asking for no "proofs" however at the same time if someone can show me that i am wrong. or at least that i am looking from to close or to great a distance. that my perspective is incorrect please do. For i value the discussion that this idea my produce.

PS when i mentioned this idea to my local vicar (who is a very good man thou we disagree theologically) the conversation lasted for days and both of us while not acceding to the others views left the meeting with a great deal of respect for each other.

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What you are saying is very similiar to Occultism. There is a real "Godforce" out there somewhere, which comes to us in the form we expect to see. We create "thoughtforms", and the universe responds by "entering" the shell that we ourselves have brought about. The thoughtform is very real, and following the hermetic sense of "as above so below" is "as below, so above". It makes no difference whether, for instance, Jesus or Buddha or Aradia ever existed in incarnate form. Conversely, if we really believe, we are creating thoughtforms on the astral plane. The Godforce that resonates, if you will, with the scale of energy of the thoughtform, is very powerful, and very real. Religions that have been around for thousands of years contain multiple, very powerful, thoughtforms. World-spanning religions, like Judiasm (despite the limited numbers surviving 1700 years of Christian butchery), Christianity, Buddhism, and Islam, have people praying (contacting the appropriate thoughtforms and adding to their power 24/7) and strengthening them. Appearing in literature is another way that the "TF's" gain strength and momentum. The Greek and Roman Gods are powerful even today, not to mention Mayan, Aztec, etc. If you find the one or ones that vibrate for you, they can work for you as you work for them ("Worship"). So it is all real, and all Gods are really One, filtered through individual cultural lenses. With proper training, even completely and deliberately fictional "Gods" can be followed and quite real, such as those found in modern sci-fi and fantasy, although extreme caution and complete familiarity with the author's works is strongly advised, and then, only with a good, experienced teacher. In summation, I recommend much study before using Gods other than the one or ones that a person is brought up to believe. TF's are very powerful, but with proper training and intention, they can add both joy and meaning to one's life.

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Neither, I don't think God created us or that we created God.

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Who created Who.

I believe god is a figment of our imagination.

It's so much easier to blame or praise something out there that cares particularly for us, amid all that exists with us. And so it is. God/dess, in our image. Prone to our emotions, egoist in that our sacred texts claim "he" "she" created all and us. And all the while, we imagine what that means, for millennia to come, because "we" thought it up and wrote it down!

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For if god was created by me then do i not have power over my creation much as the Christians claim thier creator has power over them.

In essence you do have control. Your creation is derived from your perceptions of the universe around you... thoughts of life and death... the purpose of existence. The creation, I'll use 'source', is something that is there to draw strength from, something to connect with...a source where all things originate. This source is always constant.. perfect in the sense that it is always creating, never stagnant. The part you control is the content....and what you do with it. This is how I see God at least. For me its a source of peace and strength, for some its a source of anger and unhappiness....but ultimately we do choose what radiates from this source. Good luck AtlantisRises in your search. :)

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AtlantisRises, I believe exactly that :yes:

And I couldn't have expressed it better myself :tu:

I came to this same realization after using a ouija board some time ago. After I and two friends made "contact" we decided that "it" had to prove to us it was real. We said if it was real it would make a fly on the wall fly over and land on my friends hand, we looked at his hand and pointed to the spot. As soon as we looked back to the fly it flew off the wall and landed exactly where we said it should. At first we thought that it was a ghost but after further experimentation we came to the realization(I can explain further but it would take too long at this time) that it was our group mind, our focus. However I just want to say that this experience in no way proved to me ghosts aren't real but it did teach me a very valuable lesson in the power of belief and more importantly the power of a group mind.

I then asked myself, if people's minds could create ghosts, what effect would thousands of people worshipping a god have?

As GIDEON MAGE mentioned this concept is a belief held by many Occultists.

We use terms such as Sigils, Servitors, Egregores and Godforms to describe these enitities. And also the Familiars or magician's attendants of history are another name for these 'thoughtforms'. Amulets, talismans are also these same thoughtforms but are infused or attached to objects.

Coincidentally, I would have responded sooner to this post but I was busy reading a book I just picked up last night called 'Creating Magickal Entities' by David Michael Cunningham.

I don't want to write a huge post and I'm not sure where to start but if you are interested I can go into more deatil on any of these topics.

But tell me how much of this was "new" to you? Or should I say how fast did this realization come to you?

I think it is great and in my opinion you are headed in the right direction. :tu:

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But tell me how much of this was "new" to you? Or should I say how fast did this realization come to you?

In truth the idea of man creating god is not truly brand new to me as i am an enormous fan of Nietzsche. but until i recently read a work by santayana i had found it difficult to coninue my thoughts to their conclusion.

Perhaps it is important to state that i am and have always been quite a dire aethiest. This was largely based on my lack of real experience in anything occult/supernatural etc. However recently while discussing with a friend the concept of UFOs and pointing out to him the size of the universe and our lack of real understanding etc he shot back with the same argument in favour of religion a discussion we have covered many a time. As i listened to his argument i realized that the same crimes i had accused him of in his disdain of UFOs, ghosts etc i to was guilty of. I to had rejected the idea of Divine Creation out of hand.

So i looked more closely at various points of view of various organised religions as well as less propogadarized "cults" and views. And while i found many had quite interesting ideas. for instance the pacifism of the Buddhist some of the christian/silamic/judaic views. I found that many other religions to had great ideas. From voodooism to taoism, Roman Catholicism to the Australian Aboriginal Dreaming Stories all religions had good points. But none seemed to be personally satisfying. so i returned to my friend and told him that i was at a wall and had decided religion to be pointless once again. He then told me something that i will remmember for years to come. Sometimes the question is more important then the Answer. He pointed out that by my quest for answers i had discovered many things and i believe myself to be a better person for it. Certainly far more tolerant then ever before.

And he then told me that he had taken decades to find his own version of god and that as such my severeal weeks of searching seemed inconsequential to me, tho he in his aged wisdom assured me that by starting to look i had already set out on a road that while the destination wasn't in sight one day maybe i would reach enlightenment. if indeed that is what i wished for.

So while i have not yet reached the end of my road and indeed may not wish to i am still very interested in htis concept. i am quite well read for my age and feel that i have a right to experiment in my beliefs. So when i read that quote by Santayna i realized that perhaps by looking outward i was looking in the wrong place. So i started to search myself for i thought that if god is anywhere the most likely place i might find him is inside myself. I still have not succeeded but i still look.

So Mr. Hermit and anyone else with an opinion or understanding that is above that of myself please feel free to help me along my path. Though i must state that your suggestions will be considered but not necessarily accepted by my rather jaded mind.

Or should I say how fast did this realization come to you?

How fast has this realization came. It is still coming and perhaps i will reject it to if i find that it does not fit me correctly.

I think it is great and in my opinion you are headed in the right direction. :tu:

I thankyou for that and hope you will assist in the enlightenment of this wanderer in search if not for the truth but atleast for something interesting

As to your sggestion of the Ougi board i will keep it in mind. For i have believed in the power of thought for a long time since i saw my friend who was a heroin addict break free of the grip of that poison.

Thankyou for your consideration :tu:

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Posted (edited)

I don't wish to post too much on this topic. But i will post a little something.

Your question of whom created who... Or who created man, has pleagued the mind of man for years, and is a very contraversial question at that. People have many different theories on it, and is similar to the questions of: "Gods Existance" and the "Problem of Evil". Thousands of years man has attacked this question with thiestic and scientific theories.

Yes, Scientists claim we came from Apes... but they're lies though?

I don't know when we will find out the truth. And if we do will all accept it?

My 2couple2 cents.

Edited by Kaknelson

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so i returned to my friend and told him that i was at a wall and had decided religion to be pointless once again. He then told me something that i will remmember for years to come. Sometimes the question is more important then the Answer. He pointed out that by my quest for answers i had discovered many things and i believe myself to be a better person for it. Certainly far more tolerant then ever before.

And he then told me that he had taken decades to find his own version of god and that as such my severeal weeks of searching seemed inconsequential to me, tho he in his aged wisdom assured me that by starting to look i had already set out on a road that while the destination wasn't in sight one day maybe i would reach enlightenment. if indeed that is what i wished for.

That is very good advise, it sounds like you keep good company which is also some good advice. It is beneficial to an intelligent person to keep the company of others who are as intelligent as they are but it is even more beneficial to keep the company of those who are more intelligent than they are.

If it is your wish, you will gain enlightenment but no one attains enlightenment without wishing to first. Ask and you shall receive, knock and the door will be opened to you.

So when i read that quote by Santayna i realized that perhaps by looking outward i was looking in the wrong place. So i started to search myself for i thought that if god is anywhere the most likely place i might find him is inside myself. I still have not succeeded but i still look.

Looking for god in yourself is the best advice I could give you and that realization is already yours. By looking for god in yourself even if you fail to find god(if there is one) you can still succeed in finding yourself. Isn't that more important anyway?

Some say you cannot love someone else unless you love yourself first, I can agree with that. I say you cannot find god unless you find yourself first.

How can one begin to understand god if they don't have a clue who they themselves really are?

It is impossible to understand the mind of god if you haven't mastered your own mind and potential. The question is what is the best way for you to do that?

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

"It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell." -- Buddha

My method is a combination of philosophies and beliefs structured around the Hermetic Principles.

To Hermeticists "god" is unknowable, even referring to It as God is in error. So if "god" is unknowable why spend your days trying to understand It, know thyself.

By knowing oneself in this lifetime it is believed that one "evolves" after death. Evolves in conciousness closer to "god". By getting closer to "god" we may begin to understand the mind of "god". Hermeticists believe in the priciple of polarity and we struggle to return to It's polarity through mental evolution, for "god" is Mind.

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God created the bacteria from which we all evolved....at one time we looked like a pile of crap and now we look like human beings :w00t::D

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In essence you do have control. Your creation is derived from your perceptions of the universe around you... thoughts of life and death... the purpose of existence. The creation, I'll use 'source', is something that is there to draw strength from, something to connect with...a source where all things originate. This source is always constant.. perfect in the sense that it is always creating, never stagnant. The part you control is the content....and what you do with it. This is how I see God at least. For me its a source of peace and strength, for some its a source of anger and unhappiness....but ultimately we do choose what radiates from this source. Good luck AtlantisRises in your search. :)

Arty question ?????this source you speak of where is it?????

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Hermit thanks for your information and support. Much of it was and will be quite useful in my journey and i thank you for helping me. I especially liked your reference to Nietzsche whom i consider one of the greatest philosophers ever.

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Man(mans mind) created the idea of a god/creator just like they did with ghosts and the soul.

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Yes, Scientists claim we came from Apes... but they're lies though?

The theory is that we came from a common species of primate.

I don't know when we will find out the truth. And if we do will all accept it?

Some will and some will not.

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Arty question ?????this source you speak of where is it?????

Wherever you want it to be. The source never stops radiating, constantly releasing energy, IMO it is the source of all energy. We as humans receive this energy and convert it into thoughts, and then convert the thoughts into actions. We can control our perceptions of this energy we receive. I choose to see the energy as positive and modivational, containing all the knowledge of the universe. Its more of a psychological tool I suppose, using visualization and intuition to help you through your daily life, focusing on positive outcomes and the brighter sides of life. I use the word God to explain this source of all energy.

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Hermit thanks for your information and support. Much of it was and will be quite useful in my journey and i thank you for helping me. I especially liked your reference to Nietzsche whom i consider one of the greatest philosophers ever.

You're welcome AR :tu: and good luck :yes:

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Wherever you want it to be. The source never stops radiating, constantly releasing energy, IMO it is the source of all energy. We as humans receive this energy and convert it into thoughts, and then convert the thoughts into actions. We can control our perceptions of this energy we receive. I choose to see the energy as positive and modivational, containing all the knowledge of the universe. Its more of a psychological tool I suppose, using visualization and intuition to help you through your daily life, focusing on positive outcomes and the brighter sides of life. I use the word God to explain this source of all energy.

OH i see Arty so basically you are talking about life then????? so you aren't religous?????

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