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Soylentgreen1999

Bush-Nazi Conspiracy?

32 posts in this topic

Why is it that the media was so quick to oust Ah-nold but no one said anything about this?

Why won't anyone touch this? Have we turned into Russia already?????? Is everyone afraid of their shadows in this country?

(I am, actually. I thought I would get in trouble just for reading the website.)

Charles

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/com-buchanan.html

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I have read a lot about the Bush-Nazi conspiracy, however I will keep my comments for later sad.gif

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For some silly reason, I'm not surprised by either 1) the fact that he is connected to the Nazis or 2) that this "propaganda" is starting to surface in light of the upcoming election year.

Nazi or not, Bush has it out for non-white, non-Christian, non-corporate Americans. That scares me to death, especially if he gets elected in 2004 (note I didn't say "re-elected"). This is just my opinion, folks, he's not what I envision as a good president. He's hateful and vengeful and would rather see this country ethnically cleansed than anything (hm, sounds like Hitler). I think he's willing to pay any price to do it - including being in on 9/11. Again, just my delusion...er, I mean theory.

I printed out this article just in case it gets pulled for some reason. I hope you all don't mind it being posted here.

Thanks Charles for the heads up and welcome to the board from another newbie, Me! grin2.gif I hope we don't get audited by the IRS for doing this. crying.gif

BUSH-NAZI LINK CONFIRMED

Documents in National Archives Prove George W. Bush's Grandfather Traded with Nazis - Even After Pearl Harbor

by John Buchanan (Exclusive to the New Hampshire Gazette)

WASHINGTON - After 60 years of inattention and even denial by the U.S. media, newly-uncovered government documents in The National Archives and Library of Congress reveal that Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush, served as a business partner of and U.S. banking operative for the financial architect of the Nazi war machine from 1926 until 1942, when Congress took aggressive action against Bush and his "enemy national" partners.

The documents also show that Bush and his colleagues, according to reports from the U.S. Department of the Treasury, tried to conceal their financial alliance with German industrialist Fritz Thyssen, a steel and coal baron who, beginning in the mid-1920s, personally funded Adolf Hitler's rise to power by the subversion of democratic principle and German law.

Furthermore, the declassified records demonstrate that Bush and his associates, who included E. Roland Harriman, younger brother of American icon W. Averell Harriman, and George Herbert Walker, President Bush's maternal great-grandfather, continued their dealings with the German industrial tycoon for nearly a year after the U.S. entered the war.

No Story?

For six decades these historical facts have gone unreported by the mainstream U.S. media. The essential facts have appeared on the Internet and in relatively obscure books, but were dismissed by the media and Bush family as undocumented diatribes. This story has also escaped the attention of "official" Bush biographers, Presidential historians and publishers of U.S. history books covering World War II and its aftermath.

The White House did not respond to phone calls seeking comment.

The Summer of '42

The unraveling of the web of Bush-Harriman-Thyssen U.S. enterprises, all of which operated out of the same suite of offices at 39 Broadway in New York under the supervision of Prescott Bush, began with a story that ran simultaneously in the New York Herald-Tribune and Washington Post on July 31, 1941. By then, the U.S. had been at war with Germany for nearly eight months.

"Hitler's Angel Has $3 Million in U.S. Bank," declared the front-page Herald-Tribune headline. The lead paragraph characterized Fritz Thyssen as "Adolf Hitler's original patron a decade ago." In fact, the steel and coal magnate had aggressively supported and funded Hitler since October 1923, according to Thyssen's autobiography, I Paid Hitler. In that book, Thyssen also acknowledges his direct personal relationships with Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebbels and Rudolf Hess.

The Herald-Tribune also cited unnamed sources who suggested Thyssen's U.S. "nest egg" in fact belonged to "Nazi bigwigs" including Goebbels, Hermann Goering, Heinrich Himmler, or even Hitler himself.

Business is Business

The "bank," founded in 1924 by W. Averell Harriman on behalf of Thyssen and his Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V. of Holland, was Union Banking Corporation (UBC) of New York City. According to government documents, it was in reality a clearing house for a number of Thyssen-controlled enterprises and assets, including as many as a dozen individual businesses. UBC also bought and shipped overseas gold, steel, coal, and U.S. Treasury bonds. The company's activities were administered for Thyssen by a Netherlands-born, naturalized U.S. citizen named Cornelis Lievense, who served as president of UBC. Roland Harriman was chairman and Prescott Bush a managing director.

The Herald-Tribune article did not identify Bush or Harriman as executives of UBC, or Brown Brothers Harriman, in which they were partners, as UBC's private banker. A confidential FBI memo from that period suggested, without naming the Bush and Harriman families, that politically prominent individuals were about to come under official U.S. government scrutiny as Hitler's plunder of Europe continued unabated.

After the "Hitler's Angel" article was published Bush and Harriman made no attempts to divest themselves of the controversial Thyssen financial alliance, nor did they challenge the newspaper report that UBC was, in fact, a de facto Nazi front organization in the U.S.

Instead, the government documents show, Bush and his partners increased their subterfuge to try to conceal the true nature and ownership of their various businesses, particularly after the U.S. entered the war. The documents also disclose that Cornelis Lievense, Thyssen's personal appointee to oversee U.S. matters for his Rotterdam-based Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V., via UBC for nearly two decades, repeatedly denied to U.S. government investigators any knowledge of the ownership of the Netherlands bank or the role of Thyssen in it. Brown Brothers Harriman sent letters to the government seeking reconsideration of the seizures by using false information.

UBC's original group of business associates included George Herbert Walker, President Bush's maternal great-grandfather, who had a relationship with the Harriman family that began in 1919. In 1922, Walker and W. Averell Harriman traveled to Berlin to set up the German branch of their banking and investment operations, which were largely based on critical war resources such as steel and coal.

The Walker-Harriman-created German industrial alliance also included partnership with another German titan who supported Hitler's rise, Friedrich Flick, who partnered with Thyssen in the German Steel Trust that forged the Nazi war machine. For his role in using slave labor and his own steel, coal and arms resources to build Hitler's war effort, Flick was convicted at the Nuremberg trials and sentenced to prison.

The Family Business

In 1926, after Prescott Bush had married Walker's daughter, Dorothy, Walker brought Bush in as a vice president of the private banking and investment firm of W.A. Harriman & Co., also located in New York. Bush became a partner in the firm that later became Brown Brothers Harriman and the largest private investment bank in the world. Eventually, Bush became a director of and stockholder in UBC.

However, the government documents note that Bush, Harriman, Lievense and the other UBC stockholders were in fact "nominees," or phantom shareholders, for Thyssen and his Holland bank, meaning that they acted at the direct behest of their German client.

Seized

On October 20, 1942, under authority of the Trading with the Enemy Act, the U.S. Congress seized UBC and liquidated its assets after the war. The seizure is confirmed by Vesting Order No. 248 in the U.S. Office of the Alien Property Custodian and signed by U.S. Alien Property Custodian Leo T. Crowley.

In August, under the same authority, Congress had seized the first of the Bush-Harriman-managed Thyssen entities, Hamburg-American Line, under Vesting Order No. 126, also signed by Crowley. Eight days after the seizure of UBC, Congress invoked the Trading with the Enemy Act again to take control of two more Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses - Holland-American Trading Corp. (Vesting Order No. 261) and Seamless Steel Equipment Corp. (Vesting Order No. 259).

The documents from the Archives also show that the Bushes and Harrimans shipped valuable U.S. assets, including gold, coal, steel and U.S. Treasury bonds, to their foreign clients overseas between 1931-33, as Hitler engineered his rise to power.

Still No Story?

Since 1942, the information has not appeared in any U.S. news coverage of any Bush political campaign, nor has it been included in any of the major Bush family biographies. It was, however, covered extensively in George H.W. Bush: The Unauthorized Biography, by Webster Tarpley and Anton Chaitkin. Chaitkin's father served as an attorney in the 1940s for some of the victims of the Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses.

The book gave a detailed, accurate accounting of the Bush family's long Nazi affiliation, but no mainstream U.S. media entity reported on or even investigated the allegations, despite careful documentation by the authors. Major booksellers declined to distribute the book, which was dismissed by Bush supporters as biased and untrue. Its authors struggled even to be reviewed in reputable newspapers. That the book was published by Lyndon LaRouche's organization undoubtedly made it easier to dismiss, but does not change the facts.

The essence of the story has been posted for years on various Internet sites, including BuzzFlash.com and TakeBackTheMedia.com, but no online media seem to have independently confirmed it.

In the 1990s, former U.S. Justice Department Nazi war crimes prosecutor John Loftus, now honorary president of the Florida Holocaust Museum, wrote a book and launched a web site (www.john-loftus.com) which did breakthrough reporting, including establishing the link between Prescott Bush, Consolidated Silesian Steel Corporation and forced labor at Auschwitz. Although the widely-respected Loftus established a successful international speaking career with his information, no U.S. newspaper or major TV news program acknowledged his decade of work, nor did he ever see many of the recently released documents.

Meanwhile, the mainstream media have apparently made no attempt since World War II to either verify or disprove the allegations of Nazi collaboration against the Bush family. Instead, they have attempted to dismiss or discredit such Internet sites or "unauthorized" books without any journalistic inquiry or research into their veracity.

Loyal Defenders

The National Review ran an essay on September 1 by their White House correspondent Byron York, entitled "Annals of Bush-Hating." It begins mockingly: "Are you aware of the murderous history of George W. Bush - indeed, of the entire Bush family? Are you aware of the president's Nazi sympathies? His crimes against humanity? And do you know, by the way, that George W. Bush is a certifiable moron?" York goes on to discredit the "Bush is a moron" IQ hoax, but fails to disprove the Nazi connection.

The more liberal Boston Globe ran a column September 29 by Reason magazine's Cathy Young in which she referred to "Bush-o-phobes on the Internet" who "repeat preposterous claims about the Bush family's alleged Nazi connections."

Poles Tackle the Topic

Newsweek Polska, the magazine's Polish edition, published a short piece on the "Bush Nazi past" in its March 5, 2003 edition. The item reported that "the Bush family reaped rewards from the forced-labor prisoners in the Auschwitz concentration camp," according to a copyrighted English-language translation from Scoop Media (www.scoop.co.nz). The story also reported the seizure of the various Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses.

Still Not Interested

Major U.S. media outlets, including ABC News, NBC News, CNN, The New York Times, Washington Post, Washington Times, Los Angeles Times and Miami Herald, as well as Knight-Ridder Newspapers, have repeatedly declined to investigate the story when information regarding discovery of the documents was presented to them beginning Friday, August 29. Newsweek U.S. correspondent Michael Isikoff, famous for his reporting of big scoops during the Clinton-Lewinsky sexual affair of the 1990s, declined twice to accept an exclusive story based on the documents from the archives.

Aftermath

In 1952, Prescott Bush was elected to the U.S. Senate, with no press accounts about his well-concealed Nazi past. There is no record of any U.S. press coverage of the Bush-Nazi connection during any political campaigns conducted by George Herbert Walker Bush, Jeb Bush, or George W. Bush, with the exception of a brief mention in an unrelated story in the Sarasota Herald Tribune in November 2000 and a brief but inaccurate account in The Boston Globe in 2001.

John Buchanan is an award-winning and internationally published journalist and investigative reporter with 33 years of experience in New York, Los Angeles, Washington and Miami. His work has appeared in more than 50 newspapers, magazines and books. He can be reached by e-mail at: jtwg@bellsouth.net.

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Nazi or not, Bush has it out for non-white, non-Christian, non-corporate Americans.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Could you please cite reputable sources for this claim?

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So his great grandfather had ties to the nazis? So what? It doesn't exactly mean Bush goes home and puts on a nazi uniform and starts speaking german (assuming, that is, he ever learns english).

If you want to worry about Bush, worry about the fact he's got the IQ of a rather uninspiring turnip...or the fact that he didn't know where spain was during the war on Iraq...or that he has all the leadership ability of an especially timid sheep.

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Oh yeah, Seraphina...and that too. I forgot.

As for a reputable source, Pale Horse, his actions speak louder than my neighborhood's Saturday 1:00 p.m. air-raid signal test.

He's anti-affirmative action. (I will NOT get into an argument about that. It says enough.)

He slammed Gore for campaigning to a Buddhist organization. I am Buddhist and since when is that a BAD thing in America? (Oh, and I don't particularly like Gore, either.)

His so-called tax cuts only affected the well-to-do.

His "war on terrorism" is nothing more than a fundamentalist's war. Consult the June 2003 Time Magazine on that one. "Oh, let us self-righteous X-tians go and convert those heathen Muslims." I'm disgusted by it. They shouldn't be there. It resonates of the Pilgrims and the Native Americans. We should have the freedom to choose to whom we pray and how we worship.

He's anti-gay rights and that stance is PURELY religious based. Don't come talking about "morals". In one of his Saturday Addresses back during the summer, he said, "It is a holy union between man and woman in the eyes of God." That was played all over the radio AND television. So whose God was he talking about? His, Mine, Yours?

Basically America is quickly becoming, "You can have all the freedom you want, as long as you do what we say, look like we tell you, say what we tell you and act how we tell you. Then we'll have a wonderful, homoginzed utopia!" (China, Russia...looks familiar. It's communism in the guise of democracy.)

He tried to eliminate "over-time" for blue-collar workers. Though I work in an office on salary, if my parents were alive, they would be affected. Salary=slave. You should be paid for the quality as well as quantity of work you perform.

And if you aren't aware of any of this, where have you been living in the past three years?

Yes, he's a hateful, wrathful warmonger and dictator who has set this country back thirty years economically and fifty years socially.

I'm done.

Show me where he has improved things and MAYBE I'll be a little more tolerant. disgust.gif

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He's anti-affirmative action. (I will NOT get into an argument about that.  It says enough.)

Funny that, I happen to think that a person should be judged by their abilities and not by the color of their skin. I guess that makes me a racist then, huh?

His so-called tax cuts only affected the well-to-do.

Really, that's funny. I am hardly well to do making under 40K a year. That puts me smack dab in the "middle-class". Guess what, I got a HUGE refund this past tax year due to tax cuts. Maybe I am the only one.

His "war on terrorism" is nothing more than a fundamentalist's war.

Thats strange, I was obviously mistaken that the recent war was to protect American and her allies citizens. Bush obviously manufactured the tales of WMD's to scare us all. I might even have a quote on it:

"When I left office, there was a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for. That is, at the end of the first Gulf War, we knew what he had. We knew what was destroyed in all the inspection processes and that was a lot. And then we bombed with the British for four days in 1998. We might have gotten it all; we might have gotten half of it; we might have gotten none of it. But we didn't know. So I thought it was prudent for the president to go to the U.N. and for the U.N. to say you got to let these inspectors in, and this time if you don't cooperate the penalty could be regime change, not just continued sanctions."

-- Bill Clinton, July 22, 2003

Gosh, I'm sorry that quote was by Clinton and not Bush, however could I have mixed that up?

Basically America is quickly becoming, "You can have all the freedom you want, as long as you do what we say, look like we tell you, say what we tell you and act how we tell you.

Are you dead? By that I mean, have you been carted away to a detention center for speaking the way you do? Until then this point is baseless. I know people far more radical and vocal than you that still enjoy the 1st amendment and all the freedoms it provides.

He tried to eliminate "over-time" for blue-collar workers.

Please provide a source for that accusation. I must confess that this is the first time I heard of this.

Show me where he has improved things

Econmy Surges at 5.4% Highest pace since 1999

Stocks rise to a 16 month high

Maybe its not about oil

If you take offence to the sarcasm in my post, tough. You started down this road.

And if you aren't aware of any of this, where have you been living in the past three years?

I merely wanted a logical discussion with sources, not insults.

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`Affirmative action' is another term for `positive discrimination', which is one of the most laughably hypocritical creations of the PC brigade.

Discriminating in favour of one type of person, is discriminating against all the others.

So it's just plain old discrimination, then.

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Funny that, I happen to think that a person should be judged by their abilities and not by the color of their skin. I guess that makes me a racist then, huh?

My ONLY response to this. If the game was fair in the first place and we could trust people to be fair, we wouldn't need it. If you think it is fair, then we know who you are and why this bothers you. ::wimper::

And to give you a high-profile example, let's look at my favorite film of all time - the Matrix.

The Wachowski Brothers (writers and directors) had to FIGHT Warner Brothers to get Lawrence Fishburne to play the role of Morpheus. It was who they wanted and who they wrote the script for. What did Joel Silver and Co. of Warner say? "We don't feel comfortable with a black man playing in a role that had so much presence and power in this [non-black] film."

The Wachowski Brothers said, "No Lawrence. No movie."

Another Warner flub. They didn't want to pay Wo Ping, a world-renoun Kung Fu coordinator - a comparable pay and Wo Ping was about to walk. The Wachowski Bros said, "No Wo Ping. No movie."

Warner Brothers had to cave.

Show me where that's fair?

Oh, and since you like sources - here you go.

"Beyond Tokenism"

If you can't get into the archives, I've pasted it at the very bottom of this post for your enjoyment.

Really, that's funny. I am hardly well to do making under 40K a year. That puts me smack dab in the "middle-class". Guess what, I got a HUGE refund this past tax year due to tax cuts. Maybe I am the only one.

That is funny, because I don't know ANYONE who did. I don't live in a cave. I'm pretty social and we're all wondering where OUR checks went. Maybe you got them?

Thats strange, I was obviously mistaken that the recent war was to protect American and her allies citizens. Bush obviously manufactured the tales of WMD's to scare us all. I might even have a quote on it:

"When I left office, there was a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for. That is, at the end of the first Gulf War, we knew what he had. We knew what was destroyed in all the inspection processes and that was a lot. And then we bombed with the British for four days in 1998. We might have gotten it all; we might have gotten half of it; we might have gotten none of it. But we didn't know. So I thought it was prudent for the president to go to the U.N. and for the U.N. to say you got to let these inspectors in, and this time if you don't cooperate the penalty could be regime change, not just continued sanctions."

-- Bill Clinton, July 22, 2003

Gosh, I'm sorry that quote was by Clinton and not Bush, however could I have mixed that up?

Protect America! Protect America! Who are we at war with? Have we found anything yet? Where are these WMDs? Heaven forbid, but why didn't our troops get landblasted by them? And why did they try to coverup the documents from England (our puppet) that actually said, "there MIGHT be WMDs", not that there WERE? Do we not speak the same language in these countries? How did it get mistranslated from Blair to Bush?

I thought we were so high-tech, soooooooooo able to nab our bad guys. We can't even FIND Hussein or Bin Laden! But until we do, let's just keep killing people over there and keep our soldiers in the line of fire. Yeah, that's noble of a draft-dodger.

Are you dead? By that I mean, have you been carted away to a detention center for speaking the way you do? Until then this point is baseless. I know people far more radical and vocal than you that still enjoy the 1st amendment and all the freedoms it provides.

Are you blind? Two things here: Dixie Chicks and Danny Glover.

BOTH were annihilated by the government AND the media for being anti-American. We're NOT anti-American, just anti-war. And we've a right to be. It's because I'm a PROUD American that I cringe at the injustices of our justice system.

I have to find the coverage on the American (elementary?) school teacher who went to Iraq with a group of protestors to stop the war. SHE was arrested and fined. She refused to pay the fine and our lovely USA garnished her pension and her social security indefinetely. Basically she can look forward to a penniless existence in her old age. That's freedom? It was a peaceful protest! That's what happens when I don't agree with what my country is doing?

Please provide a source for that accusation. I must confess that this is the first time I heard of this.

Here you go, my friend.

The Economic Policy Institute

It's a good read, especially if you're an hourly worker. It's hillarious if you're salary and just TOOOOO juicy to pass up if your the CEO of a company. Let Tyco, World Com and the NYSE big boys flub billions of dollars for doing nothing but slavedriving. Let Mr. Grant, a 35-year auto worker suffer. Oh he only has a high-school education? Let him suffer. The American Dream applies to everyone BUT him.

Econmy Surges at 5.4% Highest pace since 1999

Stocks rise to a 16 month high

Maybe its not about oil

If you take offence to the sarcasm in my post, tough. You started down this road.

Firstly, I LOVE roads like this. I travel them often because I can't stand lies, deceit and hypocrissy. YOU may not see where this could go, but SOMEONE will and that's all that matters. It only takes one, just one person.

Secondly...

The first two links are CURRENT as of this week. Show me something from two quarters ago or last year. Also, the first one is a PREDICTION...we don't know yet.

BTW, I just heard on the news an hour ago that GM is laying off more workers due to a slump in sales and a 1.something decrease in profits. And didn't the workforce lose 19,000 jobs four weeks ago?????

Better economy...right.

And if ANYTHING is funny about this entire post is that last "Maybe it's not about oil" link. I was laughing so hard, I cried. LOOK AT THE SOURCE!? Of COURSE they're going to say, "Everything is fine and dandy in our government, how's yours?"

Okay, if you wanna play that game, you got your sources. I got mine. Stalemate.

The Memory Hole

I'm not insulting, I'm debating. This is what debators do. Don't take it personal. I'm not.

And speaking on debate. You didn't address the Religious side of this. I'm curious to hear what you think about Bush's good-ol-xtian boy routine. Isn't seperation of church and state and American bonus or no?

Your serve.

-------------------------------------------

The Philadephia Inquirer

Wednesday, Oct 01, 2003

The Matrix

Posted on Wed, Jun. 04,

2003

Beyond tokenism

Black actors have many of the choice roles in the "Matrix" movies.

There's a vision of diversity at odds with sci-fi's overwhelmingly white

traditions.

By Annette John-Hall

Inquirer Staff Writer

Christina Crews and her friends had plenty to talk about on their way

home from seeing The Matrix Reloaded.

They could have debated the worth of the movie's interminable

freeway sequence and the Cadillac that wouldn't die. Or questioned

why, in the name of Zion, Neo - who, since the original Matrix, has

acquired the ability to fly - chose to fight rather than blast past the

bad guys who multiply like roaches.

Instead, Crews, an African American, marveled over something she

had never seen in more than 20 years of moviegoing.

Black actors, lots of them, playing characters of authority in a movie

not tailored primarily for a black audience. And in futurist science

fiction - a genre once so white that blacks wondered if filmmakers

assumed their race was headed for extinction.

"I was like, 'I cannot believe all of the black folks in this movie!' " said

Crews, 33, a Philadelphia writer. "Every time you turned around,

there was a black person in charge."

Despite the running joke among African Americans, not one of the

black characters gets killed in the first half-hour of the movie. In fact,

most are guaranteed a reprise in the trilogy's final installment, The

Matrix Revolutions, due out Nov. 5.

With at least eight black actors in significant roles, The Matrix is the

buzz among black moviegoers who hope that directors Andy and

Larry Wachowski have set a new standard for diversity in science

fiction.

Kansas

"This movie is certainly a move forward," said film historian Donald

Bogle, author of Toms, Coons, Mulattoes, Mammies & Bucks: An

Interpretive History of Blacks in American Films. While noting that

Keanu Reeves, The Matrix series' star and messiah character, is

white, Bogle added that "the sci-fi drama may not be the same after

this."

The Wachowski brothers have a United Colors of Benetton vision of

the future, with Asians and Latinos also well-represented in The

Matrix Reloaded. But it is African Americans who hold the positions of

power in the blockbuster, which has earned almost $500 million

worldwide.

Laurence Fishburne is credited above the title as Morpheus, the

warrior-commander inspired by John the Baptist, who convinces Neo

that the younger man is the One sent to deliver humankind.

Jada Pinkett Smith gets prominent billing as defiant Capt. Niobe,

whose part will grow in The Matrix Revolutions. (The plot of the new

Matrix video game is told from Niobe's perspective.) And the late

Gloria Foster also gets major billing in her second outing as the allknowing

Oracle.

In an important supporting role is Harold Perrineau Jr. - the

wheelchair-bound narrator of HBO's Oz series - who plays Link, the

engineer aboard the craft Nebuchadnezzar. Harry J. Lennix is

blustering Cmdr. Lock, and Nona Gaye (Ali) is Zee, Link's love

interest.

In some really nontraditional casting, the Wachowskis hired

philosophy professor Cornel West, of Princeton's African American

studies department, for a small but significant role as Councillor West

on the Zion Council of Elders. And champion boxer Roy Jones Jr. adds

gritty, round-the-way flavor as Captain Ballard.

The last humans on Earth, residents of the underground city of Zion,

are mostly nonwhite. Reloaded was shot in Australia, where

Aborigines of all hues were used as extras, most prominently in the

sensuous dance scene.

"When I first appeared on the set, I thought, Good God Almighty, this

looks like a party in Harlem!" said West, who recorded a hip-hop

album in 2001. In terms of diversity, "I thought, [the Wachowskis]

must be a hundred years ahead of the Ivy League."

West said Larry Wachowski called him two years ago and said the

professor's books had influenced him to write the original Matrix.

"I said, 'You got to be kidding, brother,' " recalled West, author of

Race Matters. During long conversations with the Wachowskis, West

learned the roots of their racial sensitivity: Their parents were civilrights

activists who took a stand against Jim Crow laws and worked to

integrate Chicago's public schools in the 1960s.

As Councillor West, West has exactly one line, but a provocative one:

"Comprehension is not requisite for cooperation."

The Wachowskis' multihued vision of the future was not initially

shared by studio brass. In an interview with the Detroit Free Press,

Fishburne said that Warner Bros. asked the filmmakers to consider

casting a white actor as Morpheus. The directors said no, it was "me

or nobody," Fishburne said. "They wrote the role with me in mind."

"One of the things I applaud Andy and Larry for is their affirmation of

the fundamental humanity of black people," West said. "Black

humanity usually scares [white filmmakers] to death. They don't

know what to do with it."

Usually, they kill it off. Especially in action-adventures, black actors

don't last long. If you blinked, you probably missed LL Cool J in1999's

Deep Blue Sea, so swift was his demise.

"In the original Alien, I wondered if Yaphet Kotto would be left with

Sigourney Weaver after the captain got killed," Bogle said. "But

[Kotto] ended up being killed."

From Buck Rogers on through the '70s, blacks didn't figure into the

sci-fi equation. Eventually, African Americans won roles that were

either menacing (the Star Wars movies' James Earl Jones, who wore

head-to-toe black) or examples of tokenism (Billy Dee Williams and

Samuel L. Jackson in perfunctory roles), Bogle said.

It was Nichelle Nichols, as Lt. Uhura, the miniskirted communications

director of TV's Star Trek series, who in 1966 broke the racial barrier

in sci-fi.

"As a black kid growing up in the '60s, it was a big deal for Nichelle

Nichols to be there for me," said LeVar Burton, who was later cast as

Lt. Cmdr. Geordi LaForge in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

The 1966-69 Star Trek was groundbreaking, Bogle noted. Still,

Nichols "was underutilized. [series creator] Gene Roddenberry [had]

written this whole back-story... . She was a linguist, she was

supposed to have spoken several languages. I think the last thing he

wanted her to be was set decoration."

Some believe that the Wachowskis, who do not do interviews, cast

African Americans as citizens of Zion to add resonance to the movie's

larger theme about the struggle for freedom.

"Whenever there's a fight for justice against injustice, there's usually

black people in the fight. So [the casting] is not surprising," noted

Will Mega, a Philadelphia community activist. Mega plans to see

Reloaded again, alone this time.

"You pass the popcorn and you miss something," he said of the film's

cryptic dialogue, full of double meanings and philosophical references.

What Reloaded represents, many say, is an opportunity. It can

stimulate a discussion between black and white audiences, or it can

be just another blockbuster with little impact outside of its special

effects and video-game marketability, says Eugene Haynes, professor

of film at Temple University in Philadelphia.

"The question is, how do we get [from] where we are racially, as a

society, to the place where we realize that we're all in the same

boat?" Haynes asked. "Unless we move forward with that

conversation, I don't see how just black people being in a movie

makes it an improvement."

Contact staff writer Annette John-Hall at 215-854-4986 or

ajohnhall@phillynews.com.

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`Affirmative action' is another term for `positive discrimination', which is one of the most laughably hypocritical creations of the PC brigade.

Discriminating in favour of one type of person, is discriminating against all the others.

So it's just plain old discrimination, then.

I am a 30-year old, non-white, non-xtian female with a college degree in Language Studies. I am certified in seven computer software programs, as well as certified in communications and film production. Graduate work includes eastern philosophical studies and anthropology.

In 1997, my friend's mom worked for an elite organization in a very well-to-do area and she needed an assistant. At first my friend's sister had the position but had to go on maternity leave, so my friend recommended me to her mom.

Now, you tell me this:

Why...WHY did her mother have to clear it with the General Manager to give me an interview because I was non-white? She TOLD me this and warned me it would be "touchy". They had several candidates on the board, all white and NONE matched my skills, yet the GM was ready to hire them. My friend's mother complained that she had to train them extensively when I was already coming to the table with everything she needed. So instead of HER interviewing me, HE did. I got the job on a temp basis.

Like I said, that was in 1997. I'm still here. In fact, I have my supervisor's job since she's retired and it's making this organization CRINGE. They have no non-white members and they do all they can to keep non-whites from joining. I should know, I process the applications. Ironic, huh?

Every time a new employee comes to this company, they are announced in the company bulletin - which I'm the editor of by the way. I was not announced in 1997 and I was not announced this year when I was promoted. I mean, I'm only THE sole source of information and correspondence for this company. Shouldn't the membership (over 1,000 strong) know who I am if they have an inquiry?

In January is our Annual Meeting. It's where the employees are introduced to the membership. No one knows who I am and I've been here six years. I was never introduced at other meetings because I wasn't management. Fair game. But this year I will be. I'm waiting for them to eliminate the introductions a week before. If they don't, I'll be surprised.

Tell me why is it that when the woman before me was in this position, she was considered a dept. head and when I was offered the job they wanted to put me UNDER the Controller? Accounting? My job has NOTHING to do with the accounting office. Why should the Controller be my supervisor? This position has NEVER in this organization's 100 year history been under anyone but the Board of Directors.

Tell me why when I do venture out of the office and am seen in other parts of the building that members think I'm a housekeeper? I'm wearing a SUIT for crissakes! Why is it that when I go in the front door or am seen out on the grounds, I get these stares of fright, "oh no, who invited her?"

It must just be THIS place.

Well the members of this place own businesses throughout the city and across the country. Do you think they run their places any differently?

This summer, the organization's swim team had a meet and a director just so happen to be in the girl's locker room where the 6 - 10 year olds were talking. One of the 6 year olds said, "I'm so glad blacks can't come here. I would die if they were on our swim team."

This is a SIX year old! We know who she is and I work with her parents. The director can't say anything because her parents drop GOO GOBS of cash into the organization. I can't say anything - I'd be terminated on the spot. Fair? That's fair? This is why we need to eliminate AA?

No, I don't agree that if a non-white doesn't have comparable skills that he/she should be elected/hired/whatever. But if they do, or HELL if they're better, god******, keep the field balanced. It's never been done. It's still not done even with AA.

And as far as England is concerned, Cufflink, tell me why I had to almost spout off every detail about my boyfriend - almost down to the size of his ability - to convince Immigration that I was not trying to sneak into the country? They REFUSED to believe that our relationship was legitimate, that a white British man could fall in love with an American like me. They even asked if I was going to marry him! I said, "call and ask him. and tell him to bring the ring!" I was in Immigration at Gatwick Airport for TWO hours until they got in touch w/ his mom at home and confirmed that I wasn't trying to sneak into England. That flight to London was jam packed. I was the only one who was detained.

They never gave me a reason for it.

At least here in America, they give me reasons....like when he and I got pulled over and asked questions as to whether I was a prostitute and he was buyin'. If I sued, would I be wrong? What was their probable cause? A white man and non-white woman kissing in a car? That must have been what tipped them off right there.

Fair? Right.

Give me a better solution. I'm all ears (and eyes).

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OK......

It seems that you have issues with discrimination, and that is sad. But, as an educated woman, as you say, do you not see how radical and over blown you are turning isolated incidents into?

Look, honestly, If you can't see the opportunities that you are afforded, and walk away from incidents that are ugly, by simply knowing that it is their ignorance, then what does that make you? Don't bring that crap here, because we all have lives, where at some point or another we were turned away, because of who we are. Or what we looked like. Grrr..... Makes me very, very angry.. To say the least. I have no pity on anyone that does not seize the opportunity to live the dream, they want to.. I do, however, have great piles of contempt for anyone that sits on their butt and complains about things, while not trying to make a change in their own lives. Do you ever think for one minute that you don't get the interview, or job, because of your personality? I have friends from all over, and many different races, and cultures, and you know what? They all check the crap at the door, because it doesn't fly in the 'real' world. You my educated one, need to seriously consider looking at yourself, before you cry foul, so easily.

I will have you know, that I am considered middle class, and I got a really nice refund check too. Do you have an accountant? Maybe that is something that you should check into, before blaming people that would have nothing to do with you meeting the requirments of that refund.

Look, I don't want to go into this big debate with you about discrimination.. But, lets just say that I have a personal stake at overcoming barriers, and I have done it through hard work with the hunger and drive to succeed, versus feeling sorry for myself, or blaming others' for holding me back. Life here in America, and a lot of other places, is truly, what you make it.

If you grew up in a middle class family, do you not think you start off with an advantage over say someone that had to pick their way off the streets full of no hope, just to make it? There are always worse cases of discrimination, and many different levels to which someone can discriminate. Yours, unless, as bad as you growing up on the streets, is shockingly a sweeter tale.

Ugh..... Right now I cannot even reply to the whole Anti Bush anti War thingy..

I will, because surely this won't end here..

Just a word of advice deary, when writing back, give the amount of respect to us here, that you want in return.. I have little sympathy for you, and your over- inflated 'problems'.

Reese

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The Wachowski Brothers (writers and directors) had to FIGHT Warner Brothers to get Lawrence Fishburne to play the role of Morpheus.

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about Bush. If that is true, of course it is horrendous.

That is funny, because I don't know ANYONE who did. I don't live in a cave. I'm pretty social and we're all wondering where OUR checks went. Maybe you got them?

So, I thought you said the middle-class got screwed. I'm middle class and I got a huge refund. Why can't you answer that?

Protect America! Protect America! Who are we at war with? Have we found anything yet? Where are these WMDs? Heaven forbid, but why didn't our troops get landblasted by them? And why did they try to coverup the documents from England (our puppet) that actually said, "there MIGHT be WMDs", not that there WERE? Do we not speak the same language in these countries? How did it get mistranslated from Blair to Bush?

Have you even read the Kay report?

Click here

Here are some of my favorite quotes:

"A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment."

"Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons."

"New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN."

"With regard to biological warfare activities, which has been one of our two initial areas of focus, ISG teams are uncovering significant information -- including research and development of BW-applicable organisms, the involvement of Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) in possible BW activities, and deliberate concealment activities."

"...(T)here are approximately 130 known Iraqi Ammunition Storage Points (ASP), many of which exceed 50 square miles in size and hold an estimated 600,000 tons of artillery shells, rockets, aviation bombs and other ordinance. Of these 130 ASPs, approximately 120 still remain unexamined."

Shall I go on?

BOTH were annihilated by the government AND the media for being anti-American.

I hadn't realized they were dead!?! CNN must have had an off night when the stormtroopers busted into their homes and shot 'em execution style. There was no crushing of dissent. What did happen was that their audience disagreed with their politics and thusly responded with their wallets. To claim otherwise is pure nonsense. BTW, my sister just went to a sold out Dixie Chicks concert, guess they haven't been silenced after all.

I have to find the coverage on the American (elementary?) school teacher who went to Iraq with a group of protestors to stop the war. SHE was arrested and fined.

So when a person breaks US law, they are not supposed to be punished. She aided an enemy during wartime. Whether or not you agreed with the war, her actions could have caused the death of American and coalition soldiers. She deserved more than what she got.

Here you go, my friend.

The Economic Policy Institute

It's a good read, especially if you're an hourly worker.

Here's where you and I agree. I think Bush should drop this if he wants to get re-elected in 2004. But I am also surprised that the major news outlets have not picked this up and rammed it down our throats.

And if ANYTHING is funny about this entire post is that last "Maybe it's not about oil" link. I was laughing so hard, I cried. LOOK AT THE SOURCE!? Of COURSE they're going to say, "Everything is fine and dandy in our government, how's yours?"

So the DOD is less reputable than your obviously biased source. Not likely. So do you think that the DOD article is a lie?

The first two links are CURRENT as of this week. Show me something from two quarters ago or last year.

So lets revel in the past handed to us by the Clinton Administration instead of looking to a promising future? I don't get it. We don't live in the 2 quarters ago, we live in the now. Now stocks are up, Now the economy is growing. If in the upcoming months we experience a HUGE downturn, then you will have something to talk about.

On religion:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I guess I don't read so good. Where does it say "seperation of church and state"? All I read is that the government can't establish a state religion.

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Unplughaven, I'm sorry you've suffered discrimination, but in my opinion, two wrongs don't make a right.

I would have answered your post in greater detail, but Reese has already done so, so completely, with the points I wished to make, that anything I add would be unneccessary repetition.

Thanks Reese.

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This summer, the organization's swim team had a meet and a director just so happen to be in the girl's locker room where the 6 - 10 year olds were talking. One of the 6 year olds said, "I'm so glad blacks can't come here. I would die if they were on our swim team."

This is a SIX year old! We know who she is and I work with her parents. The director can't say anything because her parents drop GOO GOBS of cash into the organization. I can't say anything - I'd be terminated on the spot. Fair? That's fair? This is why we need to eliminate AA?

OK, let's go over this statement by you, piece by piece...

The DIRECTOR was in the girl's locker room, and over heard the 6-10 year old girls talking, in which they heard , "I am so glad blacks can't come here. I would die if they were on our swim team." ?????

OK, and this in no way proves that I am right, and you are blowing things way out of proportion and context. HAHA..........

You are going by what some would call in the workplace, GOSSIP.. You didn't even hear it yourself. Let me break this down even further.. The DIRECTOR went to you, and told you what was said, which in turn you told three of your water cooler buds? Unless you heard it through yet another person that was told, by the DIRECTOR.

Am I right? It is like my corporate days all over again, oh how I loved the gossip.. whistling2.gif

Hmm, in a weird sorta way, kinda disspells the whole, 'No one knows me here after 6 years' statement as well....

At least here in America, they give me reasons....like when he and I got pulled over and asked questions as to whether I was a prostitute and he was buyin'. If I sued, would I be wrong? What was their probable cause? A white man and non-white woman kissing in a car? That must have been what tipped them off right there.

Need I tell you that we all get pulled by the police, at some point or another?

I do not believe the police officer said something like that to you, or your boyfriend.. With as much fire as you have in you, you would surely have gone through the proper channels to report something like that..(I mean, the police Chief couldn't have fired you, so what were the reasons for not doing so there?) Oh, unless of course, you make it a habit of sitting idly by, while the world pounces on you, from the left and right.

Reese

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No problem Cuffllink.... original.gif

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Oh god reese it's government lies allover agian....

My 2 cents:

Bush's ancestor may have been a Nazi.....big deal dontgetit.gif

Racism: sad but a fact of life

Anti affirmitive action: it's about time

The war on Iraq and BS conspiricies about the election: Bush won Gore lost get over it...I'd hate to see the state of this war with Gore in power....He'd have no hands left from wringing them in indecision as the country was attacked over and over.

This thread ( with the exception of reese wub.gif , palehorse cufflink and anyoneelse with sense): stupidity should be painful.

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Woah.....

Uh...wow.

Um, I just wanted to share some info guys. Break it up.

Haven, dude (ette), I know how it feels from the opposite end of the spectrum where I work. It's not right from ANY group and I don't like hypocrites (sp?) either. But can we all just chill, please?

This wasn't my intentions for this post. We all encounter ills in our society, no matter where we are and to NOT voice it is, in a way, to do nothing about it. So, you did something today. You p***ed off a lot of people. LOL I'm p***ed but for different reasons. I guess because there's nothing you've gone thru that I haven't gone thru as a non-Christian and non...somethin' else and somethin' else. (But to quote Homer "I'm a white male between 18 and 56, everyone listens to me!" I'm trying to be funny here.)

If you're not descriminated for one thing, you'll be for another. It's just a human thing to segregate and categorize.

Those who wrong others will get theirs. Those who fight for justice will have it. As a Buddhist, Haven, you should understand well the concept of cause and effect, yes? Cool it. Let the universe handle it, chica, and stop confusing anger for pride. It's like drinking poison and waiting for your enemies to die.

Chill out everyone. Walk away, breathe. Come back sane again.

Compassionately,

Charles

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Okay Charles. I'm counting to ten. 1....2....

Okay, one last thing and I swear I'll let it go.

Over-inflated? Oh, wow....blowing things out of proportion? Isolated incidents? (When it doesn't happen in your neighborhood, it's isolated, I take it.)

Your responses are way too predictable. I had a bet with a coworker today on this post. I won, and thank you. And, no, I don't want your sympathy. If I need to make a wedge somewhere, I will. Heh. grin2.gif

As far as attitude, you find me abrasive? Normally, I'm not as you will eventually see in future, non America related posts. But today, right here, right now, I'm riled, yes. I don't know what I may have said to insult anyone or to warrant a "Don't bring that crap here!" What crap? The truth? My experiences, my proof? What more do you want? Or do you see me as some wild-eyed, lunatic native, frothing at the mouth and spouting off wild accusations? What would it profit me here to lie? What more documentation do you want? Name it. I'll bring it to the table. You don't want personal accounts, fair game. There's nothing I've said I cannot prove.

Don't want to hear this? Don't read it. Simple. Do I or do I not have a right to make this post? I made a claim. I was asked for proof. I offer proof and now I'm irrational. Make up your minds.

As far as sitting on my butt. I guess you think I'm a lazy, shiftless, you know what. Is that what you're insinuating? Because I'm vocal? Does that offend you? Oops. I voice these things because I, comparatively, have it easy, but it's others who are falling victims to injustices of the system and I'm just bringing attention to it.

This was interesting. And since we don't want to SLAM anyone in the forum, why don't we take this to PM? My mail box is open. I'll joyously await your reply there. I will respect anything you say and respond. Or e-me at

RAVENSWILL@AOL.COM

If you have anything worth saying, you'll say it there. You're right. This isn't a place for the societal stuff. It's about conspiracy, right?

And whoever said two wrongs don't make a right, what did I do wrong? I'm scrolling thru posts here, what have or who have I wronged? Please tell me so I might not err again. I believe in Karma. Do you?

Charles, I'm sorry it got out of hand. I'll stick to the issue: Bush = Hitler. There. No, wait. That would be insulting Hitler. Bush isn't half as intelligent or charismatic.

I guess Jr. is more like an insecure lil Napoleon. That's better.

Okay, I'm done. I'll take it to PM and e-mail.

As American as it gets,

Haven

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Am I glad, I stayed out of this ohmy.gif

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You know, I do my nightly eff-Bush dance on my front lawn, waving my middle fingers in the air and shouting "eff-Bush" at the top of my lungs. I haven't been shot yet.

And as far as the Bush administration discriminating against non-whites and non-christians, umm, what's up with Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell? Or Ari Fleischer, for that matter? If he was really a Nazi bent on ethnically cleansing America, these people would be as far away from positions of authority as he could possibly get them, not in prominent roles in the cabinet and on his staff. If you want to accuse the administration of discrimination, at least halfway look at the administration before you start to blow a fuse. You obviously only paid attention to the parts that fit your agenda.

I don't support Bush, or the war in Iraq, but I do think that maybe, just maybe, getting Saddam Hussein out of power is a good thing, if we happen to actually have a plan for after we've gotten rid of him. I don't know that we did. but I could be wrong.

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What crap? The truth? My experiences, my proof? What more do you want? Or do you see me as some wild-eyed, lunatic native, frothing at the mouth and spouting off wild accusations? What would it profit me here to lie? What more documentation do you want? Name it. I'll bring it to the table. You don't want personal accounts, fair game. There's nothing I've said I cannot prove.

Your truth, is a matter of perception. What more do I want? Hmmm. Maybe it would be nice to have you address the points I made in the previous posts. If you read my posts, you will see that to a rational audience, it seems more than a bit overzealous, and quite inflated. Isn't it more than a little nutso to tell me you could prove all this, because after all if you could really prove it, wouldn't you have a hell of a case against your employer, and those that also do you wrong?

What crap? The truth? My experiences, my proof? What more do you want? Or do you see me as some wild-eyed, lunatic native, frothing at the mouth and spouting off wild accusations? What would it profit me here to lie? What more documentation do you want? Name it. I'll bring it to the table. You don't want personal accounts, fair game. There's nothing I've said I cannot prove.

Again with the proof. Yes, I see you as you have described. If you do have proof, then why complain about so many things that you can prove, but haven't chosen to go the route to stop? You have a hand in this, by sitting by and letting it happen, and only mouthing off about it, when it suites you.

As far as sitting on my butt. I guess you think I'm a lazy, shiftless, you know what. Is that what you're insinuating? Because I'm vocal? Does that offend you? Oops. I voice these things because I, comparatively, have it easy, but it's others who are falling victims to injustices of the system and I'm just bringing attention to it.

I didn't think I was insinuating anything. I thought I was pretty direct.

You have it 'comparatively' easy? Wow, funny, it sure doesn't sound like it. Coming from you, it sounds as though the real people that have it way tougher are being put on the back burner, because all I hear are YOUR issues, and not the real 'injustices' of the world. You aren't doing anything but turning the 'real' issues of injustice into your own platform for self indulgence. Like I said, I know people that have had it harder, and you, do not fall into that catagory. Even on your worst day.

This was interesting. And since we don't want to SLAM anyone in the forum, why don't we take this to PM? My mail box is open. I'll joyously await your reply there. I will respect anything you say and respond. Or e-me at

RAVENSWILL@AOL.COM

If you have anything worth saying, you'll say it there. You're right. This isn't a place for the societal stuff. It's about conspiracy, right?

I have no problem making you look ridiculous in the public forum. The only thing that shocked me so far, is that you have said what you have, not even knowing if your target audience had ever had a stake in ANY form of discrimination, higher than yours. I will not write you in your personal email. Thanks for the offer, but something tells me, we just don't have too much in common to warrant personal contact. As you cannot make me understand where you are coming from, I surely cannot make you understand either.

And whoever said two wrongs don't make a right, what did I do wrong? I'm scrolling thru posts here, what have or who have I wronged? Please tell me so I might not err again. I believe in Karma. Do you

Since I didn't write that, I will just explain that comment on what I percieved it to mean.

I believe the wrong that you have done is to let yourself fall into this negative frame of mind. Instead of using what you have gone through for the better of people that are defenseless, you are standing on a platform, created by you, to voice nothing but hate for the 'system' and the people running it. That, is a major wrong. You can only be a victim, if you allow your self to be one. Now, karma. If you want good karma, take your fight to the people that can change things, instead of just around the kitchen table with friends. Find out about who has it really bad, and work to change things for them. You do nothing for the betterment of society, being negative, when there is so much for you to love yourself. You have a very clear voice. One that gets muttled under all the loads of minor detail, of your own, admittingly so, easier life.

Reese

Edited by reese2

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Woah.....

Uh...wow.

Um, I just wanted to share some info guys.  Break it up.

Haven, dude (ette), I know how it feels from the opposite end of the spectrum where I work.  It's not right from ANY group and I don't like hypocrites (sp?) either.  But can we all just chill, please?

This wasn't my intentions for this post. 

Watching this thread from afar, dare I even jump in here?

Charles? Thank you for your clarification... It seems to be that human nature finds a way to strike back in ways so unexpected, you end up feeling wacko.gif

I have no intentions for commenting on the Discrimination discussion. To me? It does not belong on this specific thread. Perhaps that could be continued elsewhere on UM....... at great risk, I may add. Yet, the purpose of UM is to vent, air opinions and learn. Just be prepared for more heat.

As for the "Bush-Nazi" connection? I side with others here who have said, basically "So?" That was then, this is now.

As for the current Administration, as usual Snuffy has managed to be concise and sum up many aspects of it. No President is perfect. No Administration is scandal-free.

However? I feel much more comfortable with Mr. Bush and his Administration at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. than others who would shy away from leading the War on Terror.

There are so many areas that could stand improvement in the Government of the US, and other Nations, as well. As difficult as it may be, try to go with the flow. Try to reach out and help........ complaining without action is a waste of energy.

Soapbox on this thread for this blonde is now closed. Thanks for reading.

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Saruman,Celti somebody just close this one before it's too late......

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unplughaven

How many attacks on US soil have occurred since GW took a stand against terror?

We brought the war ro them , right now terrorits from all parts of the middle east are concentrating their fighting in Iraq.

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Saruman,Celti somebody just close this one before it's too late......

PSO - the thread is being watched with curious eyes. So far, I for one still think this is a good discussion.

However, should anyone become really offensive, or if this will be a "Is too, is not" argument, rest assured it will be handled... original.gif

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