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Ultima Nemesis

Before Time

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I was just thinking...

What came before the big bang?

Don't tell me it's nothing because I refuse to believe it!

How can there be nothing? And if there was, what caused the big bang?

Also, what's inside a black hole? More nothing? Even though they suck in so much.

:alien::alien::alien:

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What came before the big bang?

Don't tell me it's nothing because I refuse to believe it!

What is the point of asking a question if you are going to refuse to accept the answer?

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What came before the big bang?

Depends what theory you're dealing with. The standard big bang model doesn't actually address bang itself, much less if it's possible to have a "before." However, you've clearly heard that the big bang was the birth of space and time so there wasn't a before; maybe you've heard that asking "what's before the big bang?" is like asking "what's north of the north pole?" And perhaps that's true.

If you take inflationary cosmology, for example, the possibility arises that the universe (as we use the term) is in fact merely a pocket of a far larger Universe that was spurred to start inflating by a false vacuum about 13.7 billion years ago. Then the big bang was merely the birth of our pocket, not the Universe in which it spawned. Of course that may just be passing your problem off to another eon, as one might wonder where the bigger universe came from.

There's a model, taking inspiration some higher-dimensional membrane-type ideas, that paints a slightly different picture. Called the ekpyrotic model it postulates that "our hot big bang universe was created from the collision of two three-dimensional worlds moving along a hidden, extra dimension." Before the big bang is then before the collision.

Another theory, partly by the same guy as the previous idea, suggests the universe is cyclic, going through trillion-year cycles between big bangs and big crunches. Cyclic universe.

Another very interesting idea was put forth by a Princeton astrophysicist, J.R. Gott, a few years ago. To understand the idea you need to know that general relativity (Einstein's theory of gravity and the theory used to model the large-scale universe) allows the formation of what're called closed timelike curves. Since general relativity deals with how spacetime is shaped by mass and energy, it turns out that it's possible to form configurations in which spacetime loops back in on itself such that time moves in a loop as you travel through space (i.e. the path through spacetime you take ends at the same time as it began).

Gott's idea can be described like a tree. The trunk is the Universe (capital U) mentioned above when I talked about inflationary cosmology. Each branch is a little pocket or baby universe (like our own) formed in the larger Universe. The idea is simply that one of these branches loops around, via a closed timelike curve, to become the trunk. That is, one of the baby universes spawned by the original Universe turns out to be the original Universe.

I also had a thread a few days ago that got little response at the time but might interest you: Multiple Beginnings for the Universe? Have a look. The article in the thread presents the paths as having the big bang and the present as endpoints, though in the paper Hawking mentions pre-big bang cosmologies in which the path integrated over starts much further back in time than the big bang. Anyway, let your imagination run wild.

But all of this is speculative. Perhaps there really wasn't anything before the big bang or perhaps one (or several...) of these ideas is correct. But at least there are ideas.

Also, what's inside a black hole? More nothing? Even though they suck in so much.

Not quite known. In general relativity there's a singularity, an infinitely dense point (or, in the case of a rotating black hole, ring) but a theory of quantum gravity might result in that singularity being sort of spread out to make it more palatable.

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What came before the BB? Like the post above, the BB may have been more like the Big Echo. And before that, may have been something like a giant release of pressure, or even

the sound of pulling a hugh vacuum. I admit to not knowing in my wildest guess.

What pre-existed that event? Maybe a very little amount of 'something'. Who says it has to be nothing? Who says something could not have existed in a timeless state- where everything was essentially unified. No today, and no tomorrow. A state in which it just IS.

That is philosophic, not 'scientific'. Maybe only a 'principle' existed- something beyond material understanding. Again, mere words.

Of course, the odd man out today seems to be gravity. It is great how it works. But, it is seemingly weak, compared to electromagnetic forces or nuclear forces. Yet, in refering to

the origin of the physical universe, one must consider how the forces were originally unified (apparently), prior to their inception as 'seperate entities'. Since there exists a principle of conservation of energy, gravity, now weak, must have been the workhorse,

early on.

Gravity hit the very early micro-seconds of existance like a spring unwinding into a vacuum. Only, the vacuum was part of the unified condition. As went gravity, so went expansion- in a flash. I am, of course, making a personal belief statement. I am trying to say that a Unified State came unraveled, and that gravity was more anti-gravity, when it first burst on the scene. Much of its dissipated energy was conserved, and possibly shifted over into quarks, at some point. So, a force helped establish physical matter.

I called the pre-Universe a 'state', rather than a condition. It may be that a state is more temporary than a condition, more prone to sudden and violent upheaval.

One last thing, and this is philosophic. But what if something 'spiritual', or whatever, intiated all this. It may have 'created' something, which, in a new state of being, had a primordial warmth. Then, it may have cooled. I am just typing thoughts, but maybe it had vibration, which slowed as it settled into existance- like something out of a kiln.

It may have actually frozen. And cracked. And produced some kind of powerful accoustic quake (no earthquakes, yet!). Then, it just ruptured from the internal changes brought about.

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Science says the person had died.. doctor certify that he is dead.. but suddenly there will be a big bang in his body and he return back to his life..

Don't say me before big bang he was dead or nothing was there... i will refuse that answer.. only thing i can guess is doctors have no equipment to find out the truth..

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Current technology can only as far as the Big Bang...

Also, what's inside a black hole? More nothing? Even though they suck in so much.

Some models also show that it is a never ending hole in the plane of time-space...Other say there is singularity...

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I'm just trying to say, how could there be nothing before the big bang? If there was nothing, then what the hell caused it?

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Posted (edited)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Thats your answer.

Edited by Lumie

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"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Thats your answer

Pffft, religious blabber...

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Pffft, religious blabber...

After looking at the pictures you yourself post in the thread about daily pictures of the Universe, how can you think that such a magnificently beautiful site can be anything short of the works of God.

"This most beautiful system [The Universe] could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being." -Isaac Newton

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Posted (edited)

how can you think that such a magnificently beautiful site can be anything short of the works of God.

Easily...by nature...all you need is a simple understanding of chemistry and astronomy to be exact.

Edited by frogfish

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Easily...by nature...all you need is a simple understanding of chemistry and astronomy to be exact.

If you believe in nature then you believe in God for they are one in the same. You truly think the laws governing nature and chemistry just poofed into existence? Something had to set them into place otherwise they could not be to begin with. And the idea of only needing a "simple understanding of chemistry and astronomy" is honestly one of the most laughable things I have ever heard in my life. As if to say those pictures of galaxies and the meanings behind them can be easily understood by an 8th grader. Thats the height of ignorance to think the magnificence of those galaxies is by any means simple.

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I know analogies are a weak argument.

But, the "Word" is somewhat visited upon in my reference to a massive accoustic quake, kicking off the physical universe. In a region tiny compared to our dimensions, something might have come into existance, capable of some internal temperature.

But. in this hypothetical, it cooled down to nearly absolute zero. With the power of a cosmic glacier, it may have begun with hairline cracks- then it went into overdrive.

As to something from nothing- depends on what you call nothing. It is truly bizzare how energy is conserved- even into matter. Like quarks. They are held together by gluons, which at times "vanish"; and that in turn leads to virtual quark pairs, which then vanish, which starts the cycle over again.

Is there ever a line to fine to distinguish nothingness from something, in the coming and going of virtual existance?

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Posted (edited)

As if to say those pictures of galaxies and the meanings behind them can be easily understood by an 8th grader. Thats the height of ignorance to think the magnificence of those galaxies is by any means simple.

yes. they can. you really think some colors and a a cool shape is some super complex system? its just pigment/light waves/atoms[rocks],add in some gravity here and there[or do you believe in "intellegent falling"], and tada!

religious blabber

yup

Edited by A+certified

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Thats the height of ignorance to think the magnificence of those galaxies is by any means simple

Simple beauty...Essentially, it is all or once was gas and dust :tu:

You truly think the laws governing nature and chemistry just poofed into existence

Yep. They were always there.

Something had to set them into place otherwise they could not be to begin with

So do you think God just poofed into existence? What created god then? What created the creator of god? etc.

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Ladies and Gentlemen,

Please remember that this is the Space and Astronomy forum. There are plenty of forums on this site for discussing religion. Please keep to the subject.

Thank you.

Waspie_Dwarf

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After looking at the pictures you yourself post in the thread about daily pictures of the Universe, how can you think that such a magnificently beautiful site can be anything short of the works of God.

"This most beautiful system [The Universe] could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being." -Isaac Newton

I sincerely apologise and this is not meant as personal, but it sure will sound it.

This kind of talk..... whether yourself, TV or wherever really scares me.

I do not want to go down the line of my thoughts as I dont want it appearing personal to you, but this line of thought really gets my anger levels up.

Even from an early age I would sit in school assembly (church) and refuse to sing. Why am I singing to something I dont believe in?

Thankfully I have managed to avoid any form of church since, and anyways..... This is not the forum for this talking.

Nature

Peace

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There is one theory that you’ve already said you will not listen to, that equivocating suggestion is that the universe simply did not have a beginning, that is has existed forever. This would a simple enough explanation, although according to most scientists you’ll talk to, the theory is unsound for many reasons.

To bring up the theory of a Christian Saint, Augustine, who happened to have a very open mind about these things in the fifteenth century: He said the world was made not in time, but simultaneously with time. In other words, it did not simply appear but was in fact an eternally preexisting nothingness before time came into the equation, which was derived of a cosmic origin. Thus, there was no before, no Creator, or process for the universe to evolve from. Science has arrived at more or less the same conclusion as Augustine, if you can believe it, because of what we know now of the gravitation of time and the tendencies of space.

My personal theory? Cause and effect. Something caused it, and it was effected.

For kicks? I blame the aliens.

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I take it as too hard to comprhend for the normal person and have lost many hours thinking about it when I was a child.

As a kid I could not comprehend nothing, because there would be black (ok.... the word would not exist, but you know what I mean). Take that away and there would be white.... etc etc etc...

Nope..... Just dont try to think about it :)

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The universe simply *is*.

If you want to delve into the "whys and wherefores" then you're probably going to need religion or philosophy...there's another forum for this type of discussion.

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I was just thinking...

What came before the big bang?

Don't tell me it's nothing because I refuse to believe it!

How can there be nothing? And if there was, what caused the big bang?

Also, what's inside a black hole? More nothing? Even though they suck in so much.

:alien::alien::alien:

LAWL dont be a noob ther was nothing everything starts with nothing 0-1-2-3-4-5 and so on

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Easily...by nature...all you need is a simple understanding of chemistry and astronomy to be exact.

Knowing about the natural world says nothing about a Creator. Who's to say the creator did not want the universe to work the way it does now?

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Knowing about the natural world says nothing about a Creator. Who's to say the creator did not want the universe to work the way it does now?

If you want to delve into the "whys and wherefores" then you're probably going to need religion or philosophy...there's another forum for this type of discussion.

I think that sums it up nicely.

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I was just thinking...

What came before the big bang?

Don't tell me it's nothing because I refuse to believe it!

How can there be nothing? And if there was, what caused the big bang?

Also, what's inside a black hole? More nothing? Even though they suck in so much.

:alien::alien::alien:

What makes you think or believe there was a so called big bang?

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I have asked politely and been ignored so from now on all posts attempting to hijack this thread and turn it into a debate on religion will be deleted on sight. There are places for such discussions on this web site, this forum is not one of them.

Waspie_Dwarf

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