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Roj47

Dinosaur size and our own growth

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This may be a bit basic, but I can not find anything particularly conclusive on the net.

What was it that actually allowed certain dinosaurs to grow to immense sizes. Agreed there is the whale by todays standard, but was it oxygen levels? available food? purely time available to evolve? or a combination of these and other elements.

Should humans be able to hold the Earth for 135 million years. Would you expect us to grow to larger sizes as to some extent we are now, or as a genus are we limited to our growth potential?

regards

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This may be a bit basic, but I can not find anything particularly conclusive on the net.

What was it that actually allowed certain dinosaurs to grow to immense sizes. Agreed there is the whale by todays standard, but was it oxygen levels? available food? purely time available to evolve? or a combination of these and other elements.

A combination of those factors, plus a relatively stable climate. Also, given stable conditions and adequate food supplies, herbivores tend to grow bigger as a defence against carnivores. Who then grow bigger in order to be able to kill the bigger herbivores. And so on. Eventually a limit is reached, or else climate changes change the rules of the game.

Should humans be able to hold the Earth for 135 million years. Would you expect us to grow to larger sizes as to some extent we are now, or as a genus are we limited to our growth potential?

On average we're several inches taller and rather a lot of pounds heavier than 100 years ago. I doubt we'll end up being 20ft tall though. 20ft round the waist maybe? :unsure2:

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This may be a bit basic, but I can not find anything particularly conclusive on the net.

What was it that actually allowed certain dinosaurs to grow to immense sizes. Agreed there is the whale by todays standard, but was it oxygen levels? available food? purely time available to evolve? or a combination of these and other elements.

Like what Essan said, there was an evolutionary need to grow larger, herbivores for defense, carnivores for hunting. They were allowed to do so for the reasons you mentioned, oxygen and food.

Should humans be able to hold the Earth for 135 million years. Would you expect us to grow to larger sizes as to some extent we are now, or as a genus are we limited to our growth potential?

regards

No. Unlike with the dinosaurs, we have no reason to grow larger.

Edited by Raptor X7

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Basically it's their niche and ecosystem. The ecosystem allowed them to grow that big.

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For me a better question is why have human and proto-humans progressed in intelligence at an unprecidented rate when no other species, even those such as the dinosours around for eons longer, were able to?

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For me a better question is why have human and proto-humans progressed in intelligence at an unprecidented rate when no other species, even those such as the dinosours around for eons longer, were able to?

It's just pure chance and evolution. To survive, we needed to gain intelligence. After that, we kind of took it into our own hands.

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I might accept that if humans were one species. The problem is that EVERY hominid species developed in intelligence exponentially branching off and accelerating from a brain no more complex than your average dinosaur. Whatever cause that I'd like to know. :)

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I might accept that if humans were one species. The problem is that EVERY hominid species developed in intelligence exponentially branching off and accelerating from a brain no more complex than your average dinosaur. Whatever cause that I'd like to know. :)

Well that would suggest that the common ancestor of modern hominids gained intelligence through the means that frogfish posted.

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For me a better question is why have human and proto-humans progressed in intelligence at an unprecidented rate when no other species, even those such as the dinosours around for eons longer, were able to?

In reality we don't know how smart dinosaurs were. Scientists measure dinosaurs EQ (Encephalization Quotient) to try and find out how smart dinosaurs were. EQ is the ratio of the brain weight of the animal to the brain weight of an animal of the same body weight. So the intelligence of dinosaurs is measured assuming that smarter animals have larger brains, which is not a proven fact. Dinosaurs may have been very intelligent, but they obviously could not build anything because of the way their bodies were. The point is there is no sure way to tell how smart they were.

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Well yeah there is a way to tell how intelligent dinos were. The physical brain size is the universal key factor to intelligence in relation to the body. Cranial capacity of dinos was immense but the actual size of the brain was small. Imprints of brains inside of fossilized skulls have confirmed that. There was no possible way that they had abstract thought or perspective and most importantly they were not tool users.

Frogfish is correct in that the dinos adapted to their ecosystem in evolutionary terms. Early humans had brainpower to compensate for size and power so hominids didn't grow large.

Animals do amaze us when we see how perfectly they fill niches and adapt to enviromnents. Being an efficient species doesn't guarantee high intelligence but simply a solid place in the food chain.

Of course if we really split hairs humans have actually increased in physical stature over just the last millenium. Our average height and weight is far more than it was 1,000 years ago. :)

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Animals do amaze us when we see how perfectly they fill niches and adapt to enviromnents.

When the space is there, they evolve...Especially after extinctions.

More proof of punctuated equilibrium.

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Well yeah there is a way to tell how intelligent dinos were. The physical brain size is the universal key factor to intelligence in relation to the body. Cranial capacity of dinos was immense but the actual size of the brain was small. Imprints of brains inside of fossilized skulls have confirmed that. There was no possible way that they had abstract thought or perspective and most importantly they were not tool users.

So midgets must be super intelligent! :blink:

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Should humans be able to hold the Earth for 135 million years. Would you expect us to grow to larger sizes as to some extent we are now, or as a genus are we limited to our growth potential?

My paleontology professor introduced me to a very interesting famous essay that you might enjoy: J.B.S. Haldane's "On being the right size".

Edited by Startraveler

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Since dwarves, midgets and giants are abberent they do not factor in. Human infants have large brains relative to their size also but no one is drawing a conclusion that they are more intelligent than adults. :)

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Of course, if a species of dinosaur were to reach a decent level of intelligence, how would we know? What would they leave behind? Would we recognise tools that were designed by another thought process and to be used by hands with a different number of fingers? What will be left of human civilization in 65 milions years if we were to all vanish today? Would a species of advanced bees recognise the importance of a hammer or a spear point?

No traces of firemastery would remain from that time and even if it did, finding it would be next to impossible, right?

Then again, there is the question of enviroment making one smarter. Judging by the body to brain mass equation, how smart would you have to be to be the smartest thing on earth if your only compitition was an overgrown chicken? (...in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king?). What would compell evolution to waste brain power on a creature when all it had to do was listen and smell to find food and safety?

Before you poo-poo this thought, one can still find roaches in a chicken coop.

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I guess the most informative evidence that would be presented would be cranium capacity of fossils.

I have to disagree with you that dinosaurs could have left intelligent designs, or whatever behind, but realise that I purely base my opinion on years of programmes on TV, books etc....

Personally I can't comprehend anything other than humans using intelligence as we do, but your opinion is valid, whether I agree or not.

####### <---- this is my fence, and I am allowed to sit on it :yes:

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I think that the only thing that has to grow is our brain.............................but that is mother nature's choice. :innocent:

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This may be a bit basic, but I can not find anything particularly conclusive on the net.

What was it that actually allowed certain dinosaurs to grow to immense sizes. Agreed there is the whale by todays standard, but was it oxygen levels? available food? purely time available to evolve? or a combination of these and other elements.

Should humans be able to hold the Earth for 135 million years. Would you expect us to grow to larger sizes as to some extent we are now, or as a genus are we limited to our growth potential?

regards

Humans are not getting bigger. Our average height has hardly changed in the last 10,000 years. Better nutrition combined with a more sedentary lifestyle is making us fatter but not much taller which rather contradicts the theory that size is controlled by environment and food availability.

Why some species of Dinosaurs reached gigantic sizes is still a mystery. Increased oxygen levels is most frequently cited but research has proven that for much of the Jurassic period C02 levels were higher than they are now and anyway, increased oxygen levels may have caused some increase in size but not gigantism. The simple physical problems a creature weighing in excess of 70 tons would experience as it tried to move over the ground would have been considerable. Huge areas of land too soft for it to traverse would have been denied to it. There are numerous other physiological problems which come into play too but I wont get into them here.

Environment is also cited but again this contradicts recent research which has shown that temperatures were much higher during the Jurassic which means that the climate may not have allowed the formation of ice at the poles. This excess water would have covered much of the earth's land surface thus reducing the size of habitat for the Dinosaurs.

It is now believed that Dinosaurs were the most successful of the larger lifeforms ever to have lived on this planet and they evolved over a period of 150 million years but one would not have expected them to achieve such gigantic sizes as evolution usually strikes a balance between all living things and the ability of the environment to support them. This essential law didnt apply to the Dinosaurs for reasons we presently cannot explain.

The largest Dinosaurs may have grown to weights exceeding 100 tons and it is believed that they existed in their tens of thousands and that they herded together. Creatures of such size would have required a lush foliage rich environment of immense size to support them which means a world much larger than at present but of course, as I have said, the land area would actually have been reduced thru higher sea levels.

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When it comes to humans and evolution all bets are now off there is know real way to predict what will happen(now more than ever because of technology), that much is obvious

We can not rely on data from the last 10000 years because of our enviroment has completely changed survival to sexual maturity and final reproduction is no longer an issue. We are getting heavier because of seditary lifestyles we are not evolving in that direction.

Lets assume that these things happen women are encouraged more and more to work....less and less have children, these children will come from women that have a stronger desire to have children(to deny a genetic tendancy towards certain behaviour is foolish...i work with horses and know that a colt that has never had any of the same hanlders and never come in contact with his stallion will behave similarly many but not all of his siblings and half siblings) even though many women who work do have children they have them later (25 years to first child vs 35 would be almost 30% faster generations=faster growth within a population.

now lets work with some modern statistics a 6' man is 50% more likely to be married than a 5'8 man(unsure of where it came from or its accuracy... feel free to refute but for the purpose of this i am going to assume it is true and remains true) this indicates a sexual preference by women towards taller men....there is probably a limit

so if the assumptions made(yes there are many of them) stay true in a couple of 100 years we will be taller and likely have even more hormonally charged females that may even become less intellegent, this may occur because less intellegent (book smart... there are many poepel i know that could never calculate the area of a square but can solve problems in an engine for example have never taken a class i realize a certain amount is exposure)

so i think we may become taller, dummer and more hormonal...not exactly an optimistic outlook... that is for peacefull future

If we have frequent major consctriptions(drafts)....the only ones to evade it are flatfoots and poor vision....we will also become less athletic

and gain excellently poor vision....although like i said from here on in every 100 years is going to have nothing in common with the previous 100

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I don't belive we will get severly larger, Mabey a few inches.

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A combination of those factors, plus a relatively stable climate. Also, given stable conditions and adequate food supplies, herbivores tend to grow bigger as a defence against carnivores. Who then grow bigger in order to be able to kill the bigger herbivores. And so on. Eventually a limit is reached, or else climate changes change the rules of the game.

On average we're several inches taller and rather a lot of pounds heavier than 100 years ago. I doubt we'll end up being 20ft tall though. 20ft round the waist maybe? :unsure2:

"herbivores tend to grow bigger as a defence against carnivores. Who then grow bigger in order to be able to kill the bigger herbivores. And so on. Eventually a limit is reached, or else climate changes change the rules of the game."

If thats the case then how come lions never grew in size to match their prey? Ive never read such utter nonsense.

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"herbivores tend to grow bigger as a defence against carnivores. Who then grow bigger in order to be able to kill the bigger herbivores. And so on. Eventually a limit is reached, or else climate changes change the rules of the game."

If thats the case then how come lions never grew in size to match their prey? Ive never read such utter nonsense.

Uh...right, unless you've seen any lions hunting dinosaurs lately, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Lions do match the size of their prey.

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Uh...right, unless you've seen any lions hunting dinosaurs lately, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Lions do match the size of their prey.

when was the last time you saw a lion the same size as an elephant or a giraffe or a rhino , **EDIT**

**drop the personal insults, Fantazum

Edited by aquatus1

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when was the last time you saw a lion the same size as an elephant or a giraffe or a rhino ,

Incidentally, neither elephants, nor giraffes, nor rhinos, are considered prey by lions.

There was, however, a time when mega-fauna was hunted by large predatory cats, the most famous of which would be the saber-toothed tiger. As massive as the animals it called prey, it could use it's body weight to bowl over it's equally large prey as it sunk it's fangs in deep. It was, unfortunately, a victim of its own success. As the climate changed, and the numbers of its prey dwindled, the cats rapidly ran out of their regular massive meat, and had to chase after other game, which was small, light, and fleet of foot, easily able to outrun the heavy tigers. It's evolutionary advantage, once powerful enough to place it as the top predator in the food chain, now became a liability, and the big cats went extinct, no longer able to hunt their smaller, more elusive prey.

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when was the last time you saw a lion the same size as an elephant or a giraffe or a rhino , **EDIT**

**drop the personal insults, Fantazum

Lions would rarely prey on any of those animals. The vast majority of their prey are animals such as gazelle, wildebeest etc.

Animals can adapt lots of characteristics to efficiently hunt their prey, matching size is definetely one of them.

Edited by Raptor X7

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