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saxcatz

Hackers revisited...

66 posts in this topic

I wished to revisit this subject in a civilized and direct manner; as I am curious as to the input of individuals on these forums.

Dollars... yen... pounds... euros... whatever currency you trade in, hackers cost millions, perhaps even billions, per year. Today's high-tech buisness market relies on the speed with which computers and the internet allow the transfer of data. Perhaps they rely on it too much, as they find out "WHEN HACKERS ATTACK" (sorry, couldn't resist whistling2.gif) and they have no way in which to conduct thier buiness. To a corporation as large as Microsoft of McDonalds, or even Amazon or Ebay, a single day on the down can mean several million dollars of lost profits (especially for those that operate solely online)... multiply that by the number of corporations affected, and the results can be tremendous!

As a programmer, I speak with "wanna-be" hackers on a daily basis... but not a one of them I know would venture to truly cause destruction... As a matter of fact, none have ever mentioned of truly hacking into any system, personal or otherwise. Most hackers are more interested in learning about the systems, wether it be in the hopes of creating a empire of thier own or simply by creating a system for thier own personal enjoyment.

Saying that malicious hacking is a product of boredom is like saying that murder is a product of malnutrition. Bad parenting, shady morals, or good, ol' fashioned destructive tendancies are the causes of malicious hacking. There are plenty of other challenges that the PC presents. If you are a board young prodigy, try creating the next hit PC game... or maybe put Microsoft out to pasture with a superior OS or a wonderful and affordable office suite. Sure... these are VERY lofty ambitions... and that's the point, these are much higher and more fulfilling ambitions than hacking into Ebay and changing every other word of text to "boob." Don't want to set your sites so high? You skills could always allow you to make a nice bit of extra cash setting up wireless networks for private individuals and small buisnesses; or spend your day creating groovy flash animations for NewGrounds. Not that ambitious? Well, you probably shouldn't try hacking anyway... but if you still need a deterrant; why don't you just spend all day creating "nude patches" for GTA or Tomb Raider? Not that tech saavy? There's ALWAYS porn and message boards... take your pick, I prefer the latter. grin2.gif

My point is; there are lots of equally entertaining, accessible, and profitable diversions other than malicious hacking. Destructive hacking is brought on by the same teenage angst that causes vandalism and non-social drug and alchohol abuse... it is a lack of parenting and good social exposure that leaves teens without a proper outlet for thier frustrations. Parents spend too much time worrying about Johnny's grades and NOT enough time worrying about Johnny's emotional state. They never tried to teach Johnny what to do when his girlfriend says "so long", what to do when the world throws you a curveball.

Parents... TEACH YOUR CHILDREN HOW TO CONSTRUCTIVELY DEAL WITH THIER ANGER AND FRUSTRATION! It will allow your children to live happier, healthier, and more successful lives as well as cause you ALOT less trouble in the long run!

thumbsup.gif

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Well, I’d give my opinion again…but I’m pretty sure it’s been pretty well documented wink2.gif So I’ll just reiterate that I think hackers are scum, who shouldn’t be allowed to have a computer, let alone the internet, and leave it at that.

Should they be punished? Yes, next question.

If you want the full argument…and I do mean ‘argument’…then it’s all in the other thread.

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So the point you're making is that hackers shouldn't waste their brains on topics like computer security but work on motivating projects like for example a word processor or something like excel. Put yourself in the head of the teenager, or remember when you were one, what was the thing that excites all teenagers ? If I remember well, it's being cool, a concept that people generally loose when they grow up. But for teenagers, writing a text processor is not "cool", hacking in a computer is cool. Listening to Mozart is not cool, listening to the latest rap hit is cool. So basically teenagers and adult live in two different worlds, conceptions are completely different.

To the question: should they be punished. Of course yes but in proportion to the consequences of their acts and their age. I can hardly imagine to hold a kid responsible on the same level as an adult because by nature kids are not as reponsible as adults (otherwise we would let them drive cars at 10 wink2.gif).

It's always the same question and internet and hackers are just one side of it. For example if a 12 years old kid shots another one with his father gun, who is guilty ? The kid for stealing the gun and using it ? The father for not securing the access to the gun enough ? The society that lets people have guns so easily ?

In computers it's similar. Who is responsible for the loss of money ? The kid for hacking a server ? The server owner for not taking sufficient measures for protecting its server ? The parents for not monitoring their kid ?

In both cases, I feel that the kid isn't responsible because he doesn't have the maturity to be responsible. But then who is responsible ?

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In both cases, I feel that the kid isn't responsible because he doesn't have the maturity to be responsible.

Whoah now! I have to chime in on this one. So you are saying if one isn't "mature" enough to be "responsible", they should be absolutely no repercussions for their actions? I think this line of reasoning is horribly skewed and you should really think long and hard about what your saying. When I was a teenager, I was VERY aware of my actions and whether or not they were wrong. You could get away with using that line of reasoning to defend a 6 year old, but I think it stops there.

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In both cases, I feel that the kid isn't responsible because he doesn't have the maturity to be responsible.

Whoah now! I have to chime in on this one. So you are saying if one isn't "mature" enough to be "responsible", they should be absolutely no repercussions for their actions? I think this line of reasoning is horribly skewed and you should really think long and hard about what your saying. When I was a teenager, I was VERY aware of my actions and whether or not they were wrong. You could get away with using that line of reasoning to defend a 6 year old, but I think it stops there.

To expand on it it's like a kids killing his brothers and sisters in cold blood then whoever claiming he was misunderstood...He should fry nomatterwhat.

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saxcatz? dust? Mr. Otter? Seraphina?

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!! Standing ovation here....... Well Done! Well Said!!!!!

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I’m Simply repeating what I said in the last thread about this subject, here goes, lol. tongue.gif

The other day a hacker was acquitted because his lawyer claimed a Trojan Virus was placed onto his clients computer by ANOTHER hacker. But even though the law can prove where the hack was preformed from, they cannot prove who was sat at the keyboard at the time, or whether it was in fact caused by another hacker hacking the hackers computer (confusing I know, lol) So this has set a new president. Now hackers have a legal loophole with which to escape punishment for something they have done. wacko.gif

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About the Trojan Horse: Imagine a hacker sets up a Trojan Horse in your computers and hacks into many places using your computer as a getaway. Now imagine that the FBI traces the attacks back to your computer. Then you'll be happy to find an attorney to defend yourself and explain that it wasn't your fault. See it's not because people are charged that they're guilty, that's why there are courts of law.

About kids not being responsible: What I'm saying is that they can't be held responsible on the same level as adults, that is the punishment must be much lighter.

Talking about responsability, if someone with a mental handicap murders someone else, what should be his sentence ? Electric chair or mental hospital ? I would say mental hospital if he's not fully aware of his doings, the punishment only makes if the person understands he did something wrong. And I think it's good that the law generally agrees with that in evolved countries (ok may be perhaps excepted in Texas from what I've heared but well I'm not going to comment on Texas).

TheLight

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Is this the correct time to point out that children are not insane? tongue.gif Nor, for that matter, are they stupid...which is what the opinion that 'they're not responsible', levied by extremely patronising adults, manages very well to imply.

The kids who are actually out there hacking (most of the ones I've encountered range from 15-19) are quite able to understand the concept of right and wrong, and are also able to understand that people are being hurt as a result of their actions...they simply don't care. What age do you think the people making all these killer viruses are, seven!? rolleyes.gif

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About kids not being responsible: What I'm saying is that they can't be held responsible on the same level as adults, that is the punishment must be much lighter.

So, these ‘young’ kids, who have the ability to bypass complicated multitasking computer software that protects programs from military installations to oil companies and banks (just to name a few). You believe they have the ability and intelligence to get around military encrypted programs, and insert their own, which causes devastation, that these, amazingly gifted young ninos, shouldn’t be prosecuted along with adults, when as its stated they are of legal age to be prosecuted?

Well I for one am 30 and know my way around almost any computer, but I haven’t the ability to comprehended how to bypass complicated programs. I think you not giving these ‘children’ enough credit for the abilities and intelligence they hold, and have the power to cause alot of trouble, considering almost everything is patched through computers.

I wonder if you will feel the same way after one of these precious little ‘children’ hack into the bank where your money is ‘safely’ held, and wipes your banking details of the computer. Or puts your address onto a dept collecting agencies computer, and have you furniture removed in front of all your neighbours. Or puts a tag on your car, and the police pull you over for unpaid tickets (which have all been done by hackers). Lets see you smile and pat the wonderful little ninos on the head after you have personally been a victim of them!

If they have the intelligence to commit the crime, then they should be treated with the same manner as one would treat any other crime. (Don’t get me wrong, this sort of crime is pure adrenaline junkies, that know exactly what they are doing,) not all crime is so black and white as this!

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Kryso,

it's funny you ask me this question because I asked it to myself before posting my mail. I would be really p***ed off if such a situation happened to me but I would stick to my principles, lighter punishment than for an adult (which doesn't mean no punishment). Being skilled and knowledgeable doesn't mean that you have the maturity to go along with it. I'm saying that about kids and suddenly I realize that it would apply perfectly well to military and their powerful weapons too.

But well I guess it's easier for people to focus on a kid than on a powerful institution...

TheLight

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Kryso? I applaud your efforts....... However? I think you're beating your head against a wall.

One of the comments I found interesting in this thread was a reference to "anti-virus" Companies....... Those who produce the Software to fight the digusting, never-ending battle against this crud that has invaded the Internet...... would have nothing to produce, if "hackers" ceased their dirty work.

Argggggggg..!! Makes me want to scream!

N...

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Again you use hacker as a generic term, Say that in 1 million hackers and cracker 5 are stupid enough to get caught, the public starts to get annoyed with computer savvy people, it doesn't matter whether they are good or bad they still get a blasting, The hackers gets p***ed off because they spend all of their free time making YOU safe, from the crackers. The hackers are what make your firewalls, your antivirus software, your trojan horse detecters, they fix bugs in your software, so that crackers can't get the handhold, while they are busy making YOU safe, they are getting flamed but millions of user worldwide becuase of crackers who are intent on harming, do they get credit? NO. How about giving the hackers that do a good job in keeping YOU safe a round of applause for their efforts? I'm not saying praise the crackers, but praise hackers that do good, they are like the "police" force of the internet, but go relatively unnoticed by normal users. I myself find it frustrating everytime i mention myself as a hacker, to be blasted left right and centre because of something else someone else is doing. Don't hate the many because of a few. You can call me whatever you like.

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Blood Angel:

For your information, I found the following in Merriam Webster:

Main Entry: hack·er

Pronunciation: 'ha-k&r

Function: noun

Date: 14th century

1 : one that hacks

2 : a person who is inexperienced or unskilled at a particular activity <a tennis hacker>

3 : an expert at programming and solving problems with a computer

4 : a person who illegally gains access to and sometimes tampers with information in a computer system

© 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated

Merriam-Webster Privacy Policy

Please NOTE reference to #3 above, which appears to meet your definition.

I also looked up "cracker"........ I found 8 subjects:

Cracker

Animal Cracker

Catalytic Cracker

Cracker Jack

Cracker-barrel

Graham Cracker

Oyster Cracker

Soda Cracker

Just to make sure I didn't overlook anything, here is the 'generic' definition of 'cracker.'

Main Entry: crack·er

Pronunciation: 'kra-k&r

Function: noun

Date: 15th century

1 : chiefly dialect : a bragging liar : BOASTER

2 : something that makes a cracking or snapping noise: as a : FIRECRACKER b : the snapping end of a whiplash : SNAPPER c : a paper holder for a party favor that pops when the ends are pulled sharply

3 : plural : NUTCRACKER

4 : a dry thin crispy baked bread product that may be leavened or unleavened

5 a : usually disparaging : a poor usually Southern white b : capitalized : a native or resident of Florida or Georgia — used as a nickname

6 : the equipment in which cracking (as of petroleum) is carried out

© 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated

Merriam-Webster Privacy Policy

The whole point of my boring and excessively long Reply is to advise that the "general public" is not familiar with "cracker." I suggest you direct your efforts to educate the public, so computer dummies will realize the world has changed.

N. disgust.gif

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nope nancey, i believe what blood angel said...is true

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I have educated you LOOK back to the old topic which is now closed i EDUCATED you there. We go by a specific code, called "The hackers ethic" those that go outside of the ethic are crackers, once i find a link for the hackers ethic i shall post it here for your enjoyment, or name calling.

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nope nancey, i believe what blood angel said...is true

I too believe what Blood Angel said is true!! I wasn't doubting him, NOR did I call him any names.

I was merely pointing out that there are people all over the dang world who do not know of "crackers"....... in the hacker/cracker debate..... Tis all I was trying to say.

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I have educated you LOOK back to the old topic which is now closed i EDUCATED you there. We go by a specific code, called "The hackers ethic" those that go outside of the ethic are crackers, once i find a link for the hackers ethic i shall post it here for your enjoyment, or name calling.

BA? What the heck are you so uptight about? All I did was point out most people are not versed in the term 'cracker'.......... No need to send your code of ethics, I do believe you........

Grab a cupatea and relax.

How would I know there was another Thread on this? The name of this one is "revisted" yet, I did not search the entire database for another like topic.

Geezeeeeeeeee..

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This link Here explains much what i am talking about, although there is a more modern Hacker ethic floating around somewhere i'll just have to do some more poking, having such short time at the moment, basically those that use hacking knowledge for the basis of destruction, "Cyber terrorism", and theivery (monetary wise) are shunned by the General hacker community, its the few that make the rest of us all look like criminals. And for the benefit for those who didn't goto the old topic heres a quick few definitions of "species" of "hackers" (using the term loosely to imply all those with the knowledge of basic hacking/or program usage)

Hacker: One who uses his ability to share information, exploration of systems for fun, not to damge in anyway. Fixing various bugs in programs, as exploring programs are also fun for us. Testing security of systems and networks so we can make it better, Pulling apart virii that crackers make and find antidotes for them.

Cracker: Your basic cyber terrorist, out to cause trouble, mayhem, theivery, damage. They abuse the knowledge that they have learnt for there own purposes, these are the guys that make Virii and trojans.

Phreaker: Someone who uses a telephone line to ring up numbers for free, dial up by "Hacking" the vast telephone networks looking for engineer numbers.

Lamers: Those that use programs built by other people, to hack, crack, phreak. These people have no knowledge and jump in headfirst without knowing what they are doing, Most turn to using there programs for cracking, as such also give us a bad name. Lamer is also a word used to describe someone who goes around calling themselves a hacker, cracker, phreaker, without actually having the knowledge to do any.

And for those not in the technical know:

Virus/Virii: A program designed to do the following things, Infect, Damage, and infect other systems (much like the microbiological equivelant). There are alot of classes of virii which would take all day to explain but they basically all do the same thing. 100s of virii are written everyday, and its we the hacker that stop these from infecting you 100 times a day.

Trojan/Trojan Horse: A program designed to "look" like a normal/safe looking prgram. Once on the target system, a remote user can then connect to the system from their own terminal and use it as a relay for their own activitys, or to annoy or sabotage the target system. again 100s of trojans are being made everyday, and yes you guessed it we the hackers are responsible for making sure your not invaded.

FireWall: A program designed to protect the target systems connections and ports. Making it safe for the user to use the internet safe in the knowledge that their system will not be harmed. These can be bypassed by various programs that have bugs, or if someone implanted a trojan horse. Again we hackers spend hours a day making sure that programs that have such bugs are fixed. Making sure that the firewalls themselves work as they should. "if a firewall can be broken its not good enough". Now you know why there are always updates to download for your firewall.

Anti-Virus: A program designed to hunt down and destroy virii. Without us hackers giving out all the latest data on new virii, your computer systems would be nothing more than £1000 paperweights. This is also the reason why your norton or mcafee updates once every 2 days.

Trojan Detecter: To detect, extract and destoy trojan horses. These programs are built by hackers, the same as firewalls, and anti virus software. Remember without us, the whole internet would crumble in a matter of hours.

There are more programs from port scanners to Encryption software, All Built by hackers for YOUR protection. So don't be so quick to line us all up and gun down?

Edit: sorry nancy if i seem a bit peeved, but people need to stop jumping down our throats as i have explained above not all of us are bad, i just didn't need the few people on the forum who did get me uptight because they don't see it from the correct point of view and decided to blast us as a general. For the rest i apologise but this post should clear it up for all.

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True Nancy, while I was reading Blood Angels comment, I was thinking of pasting the definition of Hacker, and was going to see if I could find any references to this Cracker word, used? But seeing the next post I see we think alike.

And I personally have never heard of the world Cracker (obviously that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist) But my brother works for the government in England with references to computers, and I asked him if he knew the word Cracker, and he didn’t?) So whether it’s a slang word, that has just come into use, I don’t know!

Oh, and I think people who make programs and your anti-virus software, and firewalls, etcetera, would be a little insulted if they were referred to as a hacker. As far as I know, there’s only two types of hackers - 1. those who break the law with the aid of a computer. 2. Those who try, and think its cool, and hip-hop- groovy, and try and aspire to be like the real (illegal) hackers, when in fact they probably don’t even know the first thing about computers, apart from clicking the buttons on their mouse! But like the sound of the word, mainly because they watch the 90’s cult film THE HACKERS at least twice a week, and think its cool to be called a hacker, and probably wear a long old t-shirt with the faded logo of the film, when they try and work out how to click the right buttons to join the modem to the internet! whistling2.gif

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Who do YOU think invented the firewall, who do YOU think invented anti virus software et al, Kryso, i have explained in my previous post, what a cracker is and yes its slang computer slang, my brother who is a computer technician, programmer, network administrator hasn't even heard of the word cracker, and why? because the media terms them all down into the same word hacker, i don't write the media, or tell it. I'm just saying what is. You can argue all you want, but its us hackers that keep the internet alive, and think of all the systems intergrated nowadays with the internet, its no longer money that revolves the world its the net. Without it, First world countrys would fall in a matter of days because of their dependency on the net. A very large chunk of people that now work for internet security firms were former hackers, whether you want to believe it or not. I can't change you thoughts on hackers, i'm just giving you the other view. Yes hacking is illegal, so is not paying your taxes, But hackers make a contribution to society where as normal criminals do not (and i'm not trying to say that the crackers are because they are not see my explaination of terms in my other post). I'm just saying give credit where credit is needed, and slap down on those that abuse it.

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Call yourself what you like I'll call a spade a spade and remember that most "hackers"are the product of an amoral society. Educated? No, Illegal is Illegal, and must be punished...And I'm sorry you confused hacker with programmer...they guys and gals who make the software to keep our sytems safe....

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oh the sorrow I feel about the possibilty of money grubbing scum like GE, Microsoft, E-Bay, Gov't Inc., etc losing money as a result of teens exploring their intelligence thumbsup.gif ****OH.

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You can argue all you want, but its us hackers that keep the internet alive

Hmmm, so which one are you from my choices 1 or 2? And when you call yourself a “hacker,” it’s not a word that inspires respect, so you’re not going to get a round of applause from me, lol…

Oh... and we can all call ourselves what we like! Personally I believe I’m a male catwalk model - or then again - I’m a movie star… < eyes drift to the ceiling daydreaming >

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So here's a question for all of you people blaming hackers for everything:

do you only have software you bought ?

do you only have mp3 from CDs that you own ?

If you reply "no" that at least one question then you're highly hypocritical and if you don't you're either a saint or a liar.

To Blood Angel: I admire your effort at trying to educate people but in the end, in say a week, you'll have to start all over again. I agree 100% with your definitions.

TheLight

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