Deism vs Christianity

[101]

Deism is a religious philosophy and movement that became prominent in England, France, and the United States in the 17th century. Deists typically reject supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and divine revelation, along with holy books and revealed religions that assert the existence of such things. Instead, deists hold that correct religious beliefs must be founded on human reason and observed features of the natural world, and that these sources lead to belief in the existence of one God or supreme being.

Christianity is a monotheistic[1] religion centered on Jesus of Nazareth, and on his life and teachings as presented in the New Testament.[2] Christians believe Jesus to be the Messiah and God incarnate and thus refer to him as Jesus Christ. With an estimated 2.1 billion adherents in 2001, Christianity is the world's largest religion.[3] It is the predominant religion in the Americas, Europe, Oceania, and large parts of Africa. It is also growing rapidly in Asia, particularly in China and South Korea, and Northern Africa.[4]

Well we do have one thing in common with deists. We both believe in one God.

But what I don't understand how come a person couldn't believe in prophecy? This is what I don't understand. I mean a lot of the prophecys are fulfilled right

some by Jesus

So for instance the prophecy of Jesus dying becoming the human sacrifice so we would be saved.

1. God's salvation would reach the ends of the earth

Bible passage: Isaiah 49:6

Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC

Fulfilled: About 32 AD

In Isaiah 49:6, the prophet speaks of a servant of God who would be a light to Gentiles (non-Jews) so that God's salvation could reach the ends of the earth. Christians believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of this promise. The followers of Jesus helped spread Christianity about 2000 years ago. Christianity is unique in that it is among the first evangelical religions in history, and the first to be taken to people all over the world. Christians believe that salvation, forgiveness of sins and eternal life in heaven are available to anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their savior: "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." - Romans 10:9-10 (NIV translation).

[Bella-Angelique]

Christians believe Jesus to be the Messiah and God incarnate

Only Catholic and protesting Catholic denominations (Protestants) believe Jesus is God incarnate.

Other Christians do not.

[ShaunZero]

In my opinion the word "Deist" or "Deism" can be used as a more broad term. I personally believe the universe had a creator. Maybe even more than one. I simply believe in Intelligent Design(Don't take this out of context). I believe the creator(s) created the universe, and let the natural laws take over and take it's course. The Creator does not interfere in my opinion. At least I have no reason to say he(/she/it) does.

In my opinion it is VERY different from Christianity. With Christianity, you believe many things even when the logic does not make sense and it seems obvious that the stories are not true. You must take it all on 100% faith. Deism may appear this way at first, but it's not the same at all. You CAN come to the conclusion of a great designer using some logic and reason. For if you could not, there would be no Deism at all. That is the basis of Deism; Reason and logic should be the reason for belief in a God. That is Deism in a nutshell. No religious books, no rules/laws, nothing.. It's the same as Atheism except one difference.

Like the great Mako(lol) said: A creator is just as mathematically possible as a self creating universe.

It is very similar to Atheism. Atheists believe the universe has no creator, and Deists do. That's basically the only difference. That is where Deism differs from Atheism, and agrees with Christianity.

Mako, if I got anything wrong, help me out here. This is how I view Deism. =P

In my opinion NO prophecies have been fulfilled. In every era, there have been people claiming that these prophecies are coming true. If they are, what happened? I missed the end of the world? What the hell? Are we in hell right now?

Edited October 5, 2006 by Zero of Deism

[Sthenno]

Deists don’t believe in holy books that try to convince them of prophecy, so something the bible says isn’t going to be evidence to them.

[101]

Hmmm awesome. But with logic how does one say oh Jesus wasn't real- oh duh I forgot Mako says that the NEw Test is all wrong with historical data. But is it easier to say that Isaiah was right with there historic data about the savior coming- or no.

[GIDEON MAGE]

Hmmm awesome. But with logic how does one say oh Jesus wasn't real- oh duh I forgot Mako says that the NEw Test is all wrong with historical data. But is it easier to say that Isaiah was right with there historic data about the savior coming- or no.

Actually, Isaiah clearly identifies the Suffering Servant, over and over again, as the Jewish People themselves. Read the whole chapter. He says things like, "Jacob, my servant, Israel whom I have called." Isaiah was vey explicit.

[+Sherapy]

This is a definition of Diesm i am fond of ...Deism is natural response, an intuitive knowing , a deep awareness that is at the cellular level...

[Mr. President]

Only Catholic and protesting Catholic denominations (Protestants) believe Jesus is God incarnate.

Other Christians do not.

If they don't believe it then do not call them Christians because then they are not.

[ShaunZero]

According to the bible, Jesus is NOT God. A trinitarian God is a pagan doctrine.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Zero of Deism

[mako]

Well, Zero of Deism, Gideon Mage and Sympa Sheri beat me to it...Yes, Zero has pretty well covered it all...there are those Deists that look at the Creator as very similar to Jehovah and then there are those who don't...I sit in the middle...Gid is right about Isiah not being a prophecy (just read chapters 47, 48 amd 49 and it becomes quite clear that the servant can't be anyone other that the Israelite peoples themselve). Then since most Christians hold Jesus to be God, then how can Jesus (God) be the servant of Jehovah (God)? Not logically...

[zandore]

Only Catholic and protesting Catholic denominations (Protestants) believe Jesus is God incarnate.

Other Christians do not.

PSST Bella......Christian means "like Christ" as in Jesus Christ

[Mr. President]

According to the bible, Jesus is NOT God. A trinitarian God is a pagan doctrine.

In reffering to the Christ please do not tell us what the Satanic Bible may say. As for the real Bible it clearly states that Christ is God. "I am in the Father and He is in Me."<<Jesus said those words.

[zandore]

According to the bible, Jesus is NOT God. A trinitarian God is a pagan doctrine.

In reffering to the Christ please do not tell us what the Satanic Bible may say. As for the real Bible it clearly states that Christ is God. "I am in the Father and He is in Me."<<Jesus said those words.

The word trinity/triune is not mentioned in the Bible.....

[Mr. President]

In reffering to the Christ please do not tell us what the Satanic Bible may say. As for the real Bible it clearly states that Christ is God. "I am in the Father and He is in Me."<<Jesus said those words.

The word trinity/triune is not mentioned in the Bible.....

It doesn't have to be there are many verses in the bible that there in fact three parts of God (for lack of a better word) and that though there are three parts he is one God, it is not a Pagan doctrine.

[zandore]

It doesn't have to be there are many verses in the bible that there in fact three parts of God (for lack of a better word) and that though there are three parts he is one God, it is not a Pagan doctrine.

So it is just an assumption then......maybe god did not find out about the trinity till the 4th century.

BTW: Where did I say it was a "Pagan doctrine"?

[mako]

It doesn't have to be there are many verses in the bible that there in fact three parts of God (for lack of a better word) and that though there are three parts he is one God, it is not a Pagan doctrine.

Well, here is a little background on the concept of the Trinity...as you will see, the idea is much much older than Judaism...and please don't say something dumb like Judaism/Christianity is the oldest religion, because it isn't at all....

The Creed of Nicea defines the Trinity of Christianity as a merging of three distinct entities in to one single one, while remaining three distinct entities. These three gods must be regarded as one because they are co-eternal, co-substantial and co-equal, though only the first has a life of his own! The others emanated from him.

Of course this doctrine is Neo-Platonic and pagan not Jewish; since the Old Testament makes up a large part of the Christian Bible, it is heretical (Isaiah 41:10) to imagine the Trinity as three separate gods. This mental gymnastics arises because the first bishops tried to merge nascent Christian sect of Judaism with paganism. Most ancient religions were built upon some sort of threefold distinction. Ancient deities were always trinities of some sort or consisted of successive emanation in threes.

Classical Hinduism dating back to at least 500 BCE with roots extending back as far as 2000 BCE has the oldest and probably original form of the Trinity. The Hindu doctrine call Tri-murti (Three-forms) describes the divine trinity as consisting of Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva: Brahma being the Father or supreme God, Vishnu being the incarnate Word and Creator, and Siva, the Spirit of God/Holy Ghost. It is an inseparable unity though three in form. Worshipers are told to worship them as one deity.

In the Puranas (one of the Hindu bibles), more than two thousand years ago, a devotee addressing the Trinity of gods, Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva, saying that he recognized only one God. He asks the Three Lords which is the true divinity that he might address to him alone his vows and adorations. The three Gods, Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva, becoming manifest to him, replied, “Learn, O devotee, that there is no real distinction between us. What to you appears such is only by semblance. The single being appears under three forms by the acts of creation, preservation and destruction, but he is one.”

Hindu worshippers had no problem accepting such a concept, they were quite used to worshipping curious gods; Ganesh had the body of a man and head of an elephant, Hanuman was monkey-faced and gods and goddesses had 4, 6 or 8 arms. Their gods were strange entities, so a 3 in 1, 1 in 3 god was simple to accept.

To quote Sir William Jones:

Very respectable natives have assured me, that one or two missionaries have been absurd enough to in their zeal for the conversion of the Gentiles, to urge that the Hindus were even now almost Christians; because their Brahma, Vishnu, and Mahesa (Siva), were no other than the Christian Trinity.

By an almost unanimous decision, the Church fathers declared the concept of the Trinity as a leading tent of the faith, a doctrine directly revealed from heaven. Yet a pagan religion over 2000 years older than Christianity had long accepted and practiced the tenet of the Trinity. Quite independently the Brahmins, Persians, Chaldeans, Chinese, Assyrians, Phoenicians, Scandinavians, Druids, Siberians, Peruvians, Mayans, Aztecs and Greeks held the doctrine of the Trinity long before the council of Nicea of 325 CD officially recognized God’s Trinitarian nature.

A Trinity was worshipped by the pagan Romans, after an oracle declared that there was First God, then the Word, and with them the Spirit. Once again, we see the distinctly enumerated, the Father, the Logos, and the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost, this time in ancient Rome, where the most celebrated temple of this capital—that of Jupiter Capitolinus—was dedicated to three deities, which were honored with joint worship!

Those sages of the ancient world, the Egyptians, also worshipped a trinity. The wing, the globe and the serpent together stood for the different attributes of their god. The Buddhists of China and Japan (Chungkuo and Nippon)worship Fo, a name for Buddha. When they worship his, they say “Fo is one god but has three forms.” This trinity of Vajrapani, Manjusri and Avalokitesvara is a divine union of three gods into one god – Buddha.

St. Jerome pointed out that all the ancient nations believed in the Trinity.

The Greeks also had their trinities. When making their sacrifices to their gods, they would sprinkle holy water on the altar three times, they would then sprinkle the people three times also. Frankincense was then taken with three fingers and strewed upon the alter three times. All of this was done because the oracle had proclaimed that all sacred things ought to be in threes. An ancient Greek inscription on the great obelisk at Rome read: The Mighty God, The Begotten of God, and Apollo the Spirit. The Greeks had a first God, and second God, and third God, and the second was begotten by the first. And yet for all that they considered all these one.

The Christian Trinitarian nature of God was primarily based on the philosophy of the Greeks. This was done through the writings of the Greek philosopher Plato, who set forth the doctrine of the Trinity in his Phaedon, written four hundred years BC. His terms conform most striking with the Christian doctrine on this subject. Plato's first term for the Trinity was the Agathon, the supreme God or Father. Next was the Logos meaning the Word and then Psyche meaning the soul, spirit or ghost, the Holy Ghost. The first person was considered the planner of the work of creation, the second person the creator and the third person the ghost or spirit which moved upon the face of the waters, and infused life into the mighty deep at creation. The three names of the Christian Trinity, Father, Word, and Holy Ghost are given as plainly as possible. If Plato expressed the Christian Trinity four hundred years BC, how then was it divinely originated with the incarnation of Jesus?

The works of Plato were keenly studied by the Church Fathers. The passage : “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word Was God” is a fragment of Platonic philosophy. A Christian bishop wrote several centuries ago: Such a similitude of Plato's and John's Trinity doctrines bespeaks a common origin. St Augustine agreed that he had found the beginning of John's Gospel in Plato's Phaedon. So even Christian saints concur that the doctrine preceded Christianity. Amelius, a Pagan philosopher, says it is strictly applicable to Mercury who was the Logos. A Christian writer of the fifth century declared: The Athenian sage Plato marvelously anticipated one of the most important and mysterious doctrines of the Christian religion - meaning the Trinity. The gospels of the bible were called the Greek gospels not just because they were written in Greek but also because they entertained Greek philosophy. Either both are from heaven or both are pagan. If the former, then revelation and paganism mean the same. If the latter, then Christianity is pagan. Applying the title Word or Logos to Jesus is a pagan amalgamation with Essenism, and was not fully accepted until the middle of the second century. The Trinity is a pagan doctrine.

Divine Trinities were male Gods. No female was admitted into the triad of Gods composing the orthodox Trinity. Plainly there can never be males without females, so the whole idea is an obvious Patriarchal variant of an earlier belief in which one of the spirits in the Trinity must have been female. The truth is that the Trinity grew from a belief in the feminine principle as the mother and therefore creator of everything. The Patriarchs imposed a male Supreme god relegating the female principle to the role of his assistant as, his spirit, Word or Wisdom. That was not sufficient however and the divine son was introduced. Finally the female principle, now reduced to the Holy Ghost, the Word having been allocated to the Son, had a sex change and became masculine or neuter. Once again, we see that very little of Christianity is original. I borrowed this from Consummate Deist - Mako

Edited October 4, 2006 by mako

[GreyWeather]

In reffering to the Christ please do not tell us what the Satanic Bible may say. As for the real Bible it clearly states that Christ is God. "I am in the Father and He is in Me."<<Jesus said those words.

Well, jesus also said "god" is in all of us. Christians also refer to "god" as "O'lord our father..." as jesus taught them to do.

"....he is in me" basically transfers the idea that "god" gave us our "souls" through his breath. eg; "god then breathed life into (the second) adam" << something along those lines anyway. So "gods" breath is our soul, which is in all of us. So "god" is in everyone and as he appariently made everyone, that generally makes us all his sons and daughters.

...Appariently.

Edit

So thus, jesus wasn't the son of "god" / "god" incarnate, but was like everyone else with a "soul" who are "gods" children - sons and daughters. Making him but only a prophet.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Leliel

[Bella-Angelique]

So "gods" breath is our soul, which is in all of us. So "god" is in everyone and as he appariently made everyone, that generally makes us all his sons and daughters.

...Appariently.

I agree.

[Consummate Deist]

In reffering to the Christ please do not tell us what the Satanic Bible may say. As for the real Bible it clearly states that Christ is God. "I am in the Father and He is in Me."<<Jesus said those words.

What is the “real” bible….the quote you gave came from the gospels, written generations after the fact by non-witnesses that had no access to witnesses…it other words either fiction or mythology!

[AtlantisRises]

Well i don't know a lot about Deism. However from Zeros explanation it would seem that it is quite similar to the idea of Objectivism as described in Atlas Shrugged.

[hyperactive]

In reffering to the Christ please do not tell us what the Satanic Bible may say. As for the real Bible it clearly states that Christ is God. "I am in the Father and He is in Me."<<Jesus said those words.

his saying that would fit well with him being an eastern philosopher of the times AND most importantly, be his indicator that the "creator" is within everything. Too bad his followers got it all wrong and turned it into a cult of man-love.

[+Sherapy]

Well, here is a little background on the concept of the Trinity...as you will see, the idea is much much older than Judaism...and please don't say something dumb like Judaism/Christianity is the oldest religion, because it isn't at all....

The Creed of Nicea defines the Trinity of Christianity as a merging of three distinct entities in to one single one, while remaining three distinct entities. These three gods must be regarded as one because they are co-eternal, co-substantial and co-equal, though only the first has a life of his own! The others emanated from him.

Of course this doctrine is Neo-Platonic and pagan not Jewish; since the Old Testament makes up a large part of the Christian Bible, it is heretical (Isaiah 41:10) to imagine the Trinity as three separate gods. This mental gymnastics arises because the first bishops tried to merge nascent Christian sect of Judaism with paganism. Most ancient religions were built upon some sort of threefold distinction. Ancient deities were always trinities of some sort or consisted of successive emanation in threes.

Classical Hinduism dating back to at least 500 BCE with roots extending back as far as 2000 BCE has the oldest and probably original form of the Trinity. The Hindu doctrine call Tri-murti (Three-forms) describes the divine trinity as consisting of Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva: Brahma being the Father or supreme God, Vishnu being the incarnate Word and Creator, and Siva, the Spirit of God/Holy Ghost. It is an inseparable unity though three in form. Worshipers are told to worship them as one deity.

In the Puranas (one of the Hindu bibles), more than two thousand years ago, a devotee addressing the Trinity of gods, Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva, saying that he recognized only one God. He asks the Three Lords which is the true divinity that he might address to him alone his vows and adorations. The three Gods, Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva, becoming manifest to him, replied, “Learn, O devotee, that there is no real distinction between us. What to you appears such is only by semblance. The single being appears under three forms by the acts of creation, preservation and destruction, but he is one.”

Hindu worshippers had no problem accepting such a concept, they were quite used to worshipping curious gods; Ganesh had the body of a man and head of an elephant, Hanuman was monkey-faced and gods and goddesses had 4, 6 or 8 arms. Their gods were strange entities, so a 3 in 1, 1 in 3 god was simple to accept.

To quote Sir William Jones:

Very respectable natives have assured me, that one or two missionaries have been absurd enough to in their zeal for the conversion of the Gentiles, to urge that the Hindus were even now almost Christians; because their Brahma, Vishnu, and Mahesa (Siva), were no other than the Christian Trinity.

By an almost unanimous decision, the Church fathers declared the concept of the Trinity as a leading tent of the faith, a doctrine directly revealed from heaven. Yet a pagan religion over 2000 years older than Christianity had long accepted and practiced the tenet of the Trinity. Quite independently the Brahmins, Persians, Chaldeans, Chinese, Assyrians, Phoenicians, Scandinavians, Druids, Siberians, Peruvians, Mayans, Aztecs and Greeks held the doctrine of the Trinity long before the council of Nicea of 325 CD officially recognized God’s Trinitarian nature.

A Trinity was worshipped by the pagan Romans, after an oracle declared that there was First God, then the Word, and with them the Spirit. Once again, we see the distinctly enumerated, the Father, the Logos, and the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost, this time in ancient Rome, where the most celebrated temple of this capital—that of Jupiter Capitolinus—was dedicated to three deities, which were honored with joint worship!

Those sages of the ancient world, the Egyptians, also worshipped a trinity. The wing, the globe and the serpent together stood for the different attributes of their god. The Buddhists of China and Japan (Chungkuo and Nippon)worship Fo, a name for Buddha. When they worship his, they say “Fo is one god but has three forms.” This trinity of Vajrapani, Manjusri and Avalokitesvara is a divine union of three gods into one god – Buddha.

St. Jerome pointed out that all the ancient nations believed in the Trinity.

The Greeks also had their trinities. When making their sacrifices to their gods, they would sprinkle holy water on the altar three times, they would then sprinkle the people three times also. Frankincense was then taken with three fingers and strewed upon the alter three times. All of this was done because the oracle had proclaimed that all sacred things ought to be in threes. An ancient Greek inscription on the great obelisk at Rome read: The Mighty God, The Begotten of God, and Apollo the Spirit. The Greeks had a first God, and second God, and third God, and the second was begotten by the first. And yet for all that they considered all these one.

The Christian Trinitarian nature of God was primarily based on the philosophy of the Greeks. This was done through the writings of the Greek philosopher Plato, who set forth the doctrine of the Trinity in his Phaedon, written four hundred years BC. His terms conform most striking with the Christian doctrine on this subject. Plato's first term for the Trinity was the Agathon, the supreme God or Father. Next was the Logos meaning the Word and then Psyche meaning the soul, spirit or ghost, the Holy Ghost. The first person was considered the planner of the work of creation, the second person the creator and the third person the ghost or spirit which moved upon the face of the waters, and infused life into the mighty deep at creation. The three names of the Christian Trinity, Father, Word, and Holy Ghost are given as plainly as possible. If Plato expressed the Christian Trinity four hundred years BC, how then was it divinely originated with the incarnation of Jesus?

The works of Plato were keenly studied by the Church Fathers. The passage : “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word Was God” is a fragment of Platonic philosophy. A Christian bishop wrote several centuries ago: Such a similitude of Plato's and John's Trinity doctrines bespeaks a common origin. St Augustine agreed that he had found the beginning of John's Gospel in Plato's Phaedon. So even Christian saints concur that the doctrine preceded Christianity. Amelius, a Pagan philosopher, says it is strictly applicable to Mercury who was the Logos. A Christian writer of the fifth century declared: The Athenian sage Plato marvelously anticipated one of the most important and mysterious doctrines of the Christian religion - meaning the Trinity. The gospels of the bible were called the Greek gospels not just because they were written in Greek but also because they entertained Greek philosophy. Either both are from heaven or both are pagan. If the former, then revelation and paganism mean the same. If the latter, then Christianity is pagan. Applying the title Word or Logos to Jesus is a pagan amalgamation with Essenism, and was not fully accepted until the middle of the second century. The Trinity is a pagan doctrine.

Divine Trinities were male Gods. No female was admitted into the triad of Gods composing the orthodox Trinity. Plainly there can never be males without females, so the whole idea is an obvious Patriarchal variant of an earlier belief in which one of the spirits in the Trinity must have been female. The truth is that the Trinity grew from a belief in the feminine principle as the mother and therefore creator of everything. The Patriarchs imposed a male Supreme god relegating the female principle to the role of his assistant as, his spirit, Word or Wisdom. That was not sufficient however and the divine son was introduced. Finally the female principle, now reduced to the Holy Ghost, the Word having been allocated to the Son, had a sex change and became masculine or neuter. Once again, we see that very little of Christianity is original. I borrowed this from Consummate Deist - Mako

excellent read CD and mako...i especially love the feminine aspect of he trinity....

[+Paranoid Android]

The word trinity/triune is not mentioned in the Bible.....

I knew this would come in handy some day

That link’s not a very accurate description of Zoroastrianism – something that didn’t even exist as a term until 1874.

You are correct as a TERM it might not have existed before 1874 (or there about) but it did exist as a religion long before then.....

You are correct as a TERM trinity might not have existed in the Bible, but it did exist as a concept

[ShaunZero]

In reffering to the Christ please do not tell us what the Satanic Bible may say. As for the real Bible it clearly states that Christ is God. "I am in the Father and He is in Me."<<Jesus said those words.

........

No, according to the Christian bible, Jesus is NOT God. I'm willing to back this up as well. I'll leave a link to my old thread later.

[+Paranoid Android]

Actually zero, the New Testament references Jesus as "Lord" - "the man with leprosy came and knelt before him and said, Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean", "we pray to our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ", "we thank our Lord, Jesus Christ" - on many occassions.

The word "Lord" is the same Greek word used to refer to God (they aren't different words) - "Prophet of the Lord", "Angel of the Lord" "they enquired of the Lord", "do not put the Lord to the test", "worship the Lord".....

Shall I continue?

Edited October 5, 2006 by Paranoid Android