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Dave67

The Black Dahlia mystery

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Beth couldn't have afforded to stay at the Biltmore!

She hung around the lobby, used the powder room (where she apparently used candle wax on her rotting teeth to make them look better)then walked out the door into history. This is the last, absolute, verified sighting of her. One week before her body was found.

So you gotta ask yourself - where was she during that week?

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Thanks for the link Pinupgirl. :)

This "psychic" is, in all probability, a fraud. I'm a very open minded guy but I doubt seriously that people can communicate with the deads. We are supposed to believe that this person "connected" with Beth Short without having any evidences to back up the story !? Laughable at best.

The link you shared is nothing more than a mix of "copy and paste" from SEVERED and fiction, no doubt in my mind that the entire article is nothing more than a well researched hoax. A well researched story with some mistakes in it.

We went to the Biltmore Hotel, and she showed me her room, nothing spectacular, a simple room, only a few of her personal things in it

So this person claims that she "went" with Beth to the Biltmore and that Beth showed her her room. Well it's impossible since Beth didn't had a room at the Biltmore, she went there to meet somebody ( she claims it was to meet her sister, but it was somebody else ) and didn't rented a room there. This is proof that the story is nothing more than a hoax, fiction. If indeed this person would have "connected" to Beth she would have known this important piece of information. Huge mistake. Other mistakes can be found in the intro.

The information she "found" about Morrison was already available in SEVERED, published years before the article was written. Nice try, but... :rolleyes:

Thanks for the info :)

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Beth couldn't have afforded to stay at the Biltmore!

She hung around the lobby, used the powder room (where she apparently used candle wax on her rotting teeth to make them look better)then walked out the door into history. This is the last, absolute, verified sighting of her. One week before her body was found.

So you gotta ask yourself - where was she during that week?

True. Beth's missing week is one of the most fascinating mystery of the entire case.

In Black Dahlia Avenger, Steve Hodel claims that the "Missing Week" is nothing more than a myth, and offers a list of several people claiming to have seen Beth during these 7 days. However a lot of the so-called "witnesses" are not credible, and in a desire to be helpful, reported seeing Beth when in reality it was only someone who looked like her. A lot of the witnesses claiming to have seen Beth said she had dark black hair, when we know she dyed parts of her hair red shortly before she was murdered.

A woman named Christina Salisbury, who knew Beth when she went to Florida, said she spoke to her on January 10 or 11. To me this is probably the only credible account, all the others are probably cases of mistaken identity, in my opinion.

Who knows what really happened to Beth. She could have been abducted as soon as she left the Biltmore, it's possible. The possibility that nobody saw her at all during an entire week is indeed very strange. Maybe some people saw her but just decided to say nothing, fearing that the authorities would try to blame them for the murder, another possibility. Again it's difficult to know what really happened.

Thanks for the info :)

You're welcome ! :)

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True. Beth's missing week is one of the most fascinating mystery of the entire case.

In Black Dahlia Avenger, Steve Hodel claims that the "Missing Week" is nothing more than a myth, and offers a list of several people claiming to have seen Beth during these 7 days. However a lot of the so-called "witnesses" are not credible, and in a desire to be helpful, reported seeing Beth when in reality it was only someone who looked like her. A lot of the witnesses claiming to have seen Beth said she had dark black hair, when we know she dyed parts of her hair red shortly before she was murdered.

A woman named Christina Salisbury, who knew Beth when she went to Florida, said she spoke to her on January 10 or 11. To me this is probably the only credible account, all the others are probably cases of mistaken identity, in my opinion.

Who knows what really happened to Beth. She could have been abducted as soon as she left the Biltmore, it's possible. The possibility that nobody saw her at all during an entire week is indeed very strange. Maybe some people saw her but just decided to say nothing, fearing that the authorities would try to blame them for the murder, another possibility. Again it's difficult to know what really happened.

You're welcome ! :)

If you could figure out where she was during that missing week, then I think you'd work out who the murderers were.

Yep, I think there were 2. The one who tortured and dumped her body and the one who dissected her. Although technically, Dr X would be an accessory I suppose.

So the missing week. Some ideas: she was in plain sight and no-one noticed her. She was in plain sight and anyone who saw her has kept their mouths shut. She was in hiding. She was abducted.

Have I left any out?

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Posted (edited)

So the missing week. Some ideas: she was in plain sight and no-one noticed her. She was in plain sight and anyone who saw her has kept their mouths shut. She was in hiding. She was abducted.

Have I left any out?

No my friend, you said it all. :yes:

So we know Beth said that she was meeting her sister at the Biltmore, that's what she said to Manley. No doubt that she was lying.

It's difficult to believe that, for more than 5 days, no one would notice her. Beth always needed help from somebody, was always with somebody ( a date, roommates, etc. ) so it's impossible that absolutely nobody saw her for an entire week. If, indeed, nobody saw her at all then it's proof that she was abducted or brought to a secluded place shortly after she left the Biltmore. If she wasn't abducted or brought to a secluded place then I am convinced that a lot of people saw her, talked to her, but seeing how the authorities treated Manley, Dillon and other suspects they decided to keep their mouth shut.

Some people believe that she was forcibly abducted as soon as she left the Biltmore. It's hard to believe. I'm sure somebody, like the doorman, would have seen the abduction. If she was abducted then it was by somebody she trusted or knew. Only logical.

It's possible that she was in hiding. A lot of people, including former roommate Ann Toth, said that Beth feared something or someone in the weeks before she was murdered. Again it's difficult to know the truth, but a lot of people interested in the case claims that Beth wanted to hide from somebody, that she dyed her hair red because she was trying to change her appearance to escape from somebody or something. Is this true ?? It's a possibility.

I'm interested in Lynn Martin, a former roommate of Beth. Her real name was Norma Lee Myer. She was a runaway, and when she met Beth she was only 16 but claimed she was in her twenties. In the weeks following the murder she was interviewed by the authorities, and she made a very interesting statement about the girls like her and Beth who wanted to become Hollywood stars. She said that "some of them ends up like Beth Short". Well shortly after the interview Lynn Martin disappeared and was never seen again. What happened to her ?? No one know, and that's another fascinating mystery.

Edited by JonathanVonErich
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She wasn't abducted from the Biltmore. She walked out of there under her own steam to meet someone.

Thanks for the info on Norma Lee Myer.

Norma Lee Myer(AKA Lynn Martin)was a street smart 15 year old run away that had already spent one year at the El Retiro School For Girls by the time she met Beth. They lied together in room 501 at the Chancellor hotel and the Hawthorne hotel, this room was also shared by Marjorie Grahm.

"Martin told the police that she knew Elizabeth only casually. Martin also stated that Elizabeth's friend Marjorie Graham had come out from Massachusetts and Elizabeth persuaded Graham to share a room with her and Martin at the Hawthorne Hotel. The three women lived together for a short time until a brief argument with Martin. Short and Graham moved out of the room and took another room in the same hotel."

http://www.bethshort.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=46284&sid=302f3696b33b3d8a5c782738aad82393

You think she maybe Myer left out some details when she talked to the cops? :yes:

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She wasn't abducted from the Biltmore. She walked out of there under her own steam to meet someone.

You think she maybe Myer left out some details when she talked to the cops? :yes:

I know that she wasn't abducted from the Biltmore, but some believe that she was abducted as soon as she left the Biltmore, maybe one or two corners away. Sorry if it wasn't clear. :)

From what the Biltmore Hotel’s Bell Captain said ( the last person to see Beth alive if we believe the "missing week theory" ), he said that she simply left the building, that nobody was waiting for her.

About Norma Lee Myer: You're welcome, very interesting mystery. I really wonder what happened to her. Yes, I believe she left out some details when she talked to the cops, but I doubt very seriously that she knew anything about the murder. The statement she made to the authorities is very interesting and was first printed in Wolfe's book. Sadly I don't have the book at my apartment right now ( landed it to my friend Genevieve ), but I'll share what she said in its entirety as soon as I get it back. :yes:

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I know that she wasn't abducted from the Biltmore, but some believe that she was abducted as soon as she left the Biltmore, maybe one or two corners away. Sorry if it wasn't clear. :)

From what the Biltmore Hotel’s Bell Captain said ( the last person to see Beth alive if we believe the "missing week theory" ), he said that she simply left the building, that nobody was waiting for her.

About Norma Lee Myer: You're welcome, very interesting mystery. I really wonder what happened to her. Yes, I believe she left out some details when she talked to the cops, but I doubt very seriously that she knew anything about the murder. The statement she made to the authorities is very interesting and was first printed in Wolfe's book. Sadly I don't have the book at my apartment right now ( landed it to my friend Genevieve ), but I'll share what she said in its entirety as soon as I get it back. :yes:

Thanks. She's a new one on me but iI guess another attention seeker. Whoda thunk it in LA :w00t:

About the missing week. Some of BD's personal items were found dumped in trash but I can't remember where. Not the stuff that was sent to the cops. That stuff was from the killer or his accomplice, not the loony I did it I want notoriety types that fill this story. Like Myers.

BD's hair had been hennaed when her body was found. I don't know if the cops had the technology then to work out when it had been dyed. Another interesting question. Did BD dye it herself or did her killer? What do you think jon?

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About the missing week. Some of BD's personal items were found dumped in trash but I can't remember where. Not the stuff that was sent to the cops. That stuff was from the killer or his accomplice, not the loony I did it I want notoriety types that fill this story. Like Myers.

BD's hair had been hennaed when her body was found. I don't know if the cops had the technology then to work out when it had been dyed. Another interesting question. Did BD dye it herself or did her killer? What do you think jon?

You are talking about the shoes and handbag ? They were found by the proprietor of a café at 1136 South Crenshaw, just 20 blocks north of 39th and Norton. They were in an incinerator behind the café. Shortly after, a "rubbish" truck removed the shoes and bag along with the trash. After a search of the city dump they were recovered, and Red Manley identified the shoes and handbag as being Beth's. Manley also noted that traces of Beth's distinctive perfume were still discernable inside the bag. However there's some controversy about Manley's statement. Some people believe he wasn't so sure that the items were Beth's, and some claims the authorities had put a lot of pressure on him to say that the items belonged to the Dahlia.

About the hair: We know she dyed her hair herself because she dyed them just before leaving San Diego, shortly before she went back to L.A. That's why we know that so many people claiming to have seen Beth during the "missing week" lied or were mistaken; a lot of them described Beth as having "jet-black hair", when the detectives already knew that she had dyed them red ( some say red-brown ) at the beginning of january. :yes:

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Here's what Norma Lee Myer, aka Lynn Martin, said to a reporter working for the Herald Express a few days after the discovery of Beth's body. This statement was first published in Donald Wolfe's The Black Dahlia Files.

There are a lot of girls in Hollywood who could end up like Beth Short... Hollywood draws them from all over the Country. Hollywood is a lonely place if you come into it without home ties or friends and very little money. There are few places for a lonely girl to go except into a bar. Girls pick each other up in a store or a bar and start rooming together like old friends. It doesn't matter if they don't know anything about each other. It's somebody to talk to and share the rent with--like Beth and Marjorie and I. Sharing rent means more money for something to eat or a new pair of shoes.

Even more important than food sometimes is having makeup and being able to keep your hair looking good, because if you look good, you can always get a man to buy you a big thick steak, some french-fried potatoes and a cup of coffee. Nothing ever tastes so good--at first. But the guys you pick up all insist you order steak or chops, and you get so sick of meat-meat all the time, and after a while you can hardly get it down. You don't drink at first, because you don't like liquor. You don't like the taste. But you drink because when you're on a date in a bar you have to order something, and when you're out on a date the first thing is always a couple of drinks--and then a couple of drinks.

You're always lonely in Hollywood, even when you're out with people. They don't belong to you--those people. None of them really care what happens to you. Lots of time you can hardly stand the man you're with, but you can forget about that after a few drinks. Lots of times the girls talk to each other about getting out of Hollywood and starting all over again. They're going back home, or they're going to get married to someone. Down in the heart of all of them is sort of a hazy dream about a husband and a house and a baby. They talk about it, and they dream about it, but somehow they almost never do it.

This life is like a drug. You can't give it up. It's not like having a nine to fiver. They can sleep late if they want--they're on their own time. And if they have family back home, they never want their families to know what kind of life they're leading--so if they write home, they make up stuff. Most of the girls are pretty innocent and well meaning at first. The road downhill is gradual. They know their life isn't right, but after a while you take the easiest way. Sooner or later they become pregnant, and many of them resort to an illegal operation--and sometimes some of them end up like Beth Short.

This is a very courageous statement made by a very courageous girl. Remember that she made this statement in 1947, not in the 70's or 80's. Back in the 40's it was incredibly taboo to talk about the darker side of Hollywood. In fact I believe that she might have been the first girl to reveal these details to the press. Perhaps that's why she disappeared. Shortly after making this statement, Norma was returned to her family in Long Beach, then she vanished for good. I'd love to think that she met a nice man and married him, that she had children and lived a peaceful life until she died many decades later. Sadly she most probably went back to the darker side of Hollywood. She said it herself: "This life is like a drug. You can't give it up". She probably changed her appearance and used another name. I'm only speculating right now since nobody seems to know what really happened to her, but it's a logical scenario. Sadly. Some people believe that she was killed for telling the story, it's also possible that she committed suicide, there's a lot of possibilities. We don't know what happened to her, but one thing is sure: She was a very courageous young lady, and I think her disappearance should be investigated.

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You are talking about the shoes and handbag ? They were found by the proprietor of a café at 1136 South Crenshaw, just 20 blocks north of 39th and Norton. They were in an incinerator behind the café. Shortly after, a "rubbish" truck removed the shoes and bag along with the trash. After a search of the city dump they were recovered, and Red Manley identified the shoes and handbag as being Beth's. Manley also noted that traces of Beth's distinctive perfume were still discernable inside the bag. However there's some controversy about Manley's statement. Some people believe he wasn't so sure that the items were Beth's, and some claims the authorities had put a lot of pressure on him to say that the items belonged to the Dahlia.

About the hair: We know she dyed her hair herself because she dyed them just before leaving San Diego, shortly before she went back to L.A. That's why we know that so many people claiming to have seen Beth during the "missing week" lied or were mistaken; a lot of them described Beth as having "jet-black hair", when the detectives already knew that she had dyed them red ( some say red-brown ) at the beginning of january. :yes:

Thanks for the location of the shoes and handbag and doesn't it all just tie in to the South Norton area? There just has to be a logical reason why her body was dumped where it was. Like I've said before, if the killer/s didn't want her body to be found, they could have fed her to the fish or dumped her in some place no-one would find her - like a cement block.

But she wasn't just dumped was she. She was dissected and displayed with that sickening grin carved across her face. I think she was left like that as a warning to others but who?

Dragna? Women like BD and Myers? Bayley?

About the hair, that's a great point. All the liars who fell out of the gutters to say they'd seen her or been with her.

So there is the story that she was afraid. OK, let's say that's true. Then why the hell did she go back to LA? I don't get that.

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You could also speculate about Dorothy French. BD apparently stayed with her in '46.

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Posted (edited)

I have no idea why Beth decided to go back to Los Angeles on January 9 1947, I think this will remain a mystery. On the same day she told a boyfriend that she was going to Chicago to do some modeling for a guy named "Jack". We don't know if this was true, and her trip to LA remains a mystery.

You could also speculate about Dorothy French. BD apparently stayed with her in '46.

You think Dorothy could have been a suspect in the case ?? It's true, Beth stayed with Dorothy and her family (mother, brother) in December 1946, shortly before she was murdered. Beth stayed there for almost a month, even spent Christmas with Dorothy. I seriously feel that Dorothy had very strong feelings for Beth (she had many fights with her mother over Beth, her mother wanted her out while Dorothy did all she could so Beth could stay with her), but I doubt very seriously that she could have killed her, Dorothy was a very kind girl and she had nothing but love for Beth.

If you're talking about a murder victim named French then you must be talking about Jeanne French, who was murdered a month after the murder of Beth Short. French's body was found nude with the letters "BD" written on her chest with lipstick, but she wasn't cut in half.To this day people are still debating whether she was killed by the same man (men) who killed Beth. My guess is that Jeanne was killed by her husband. He admitted that they had a fight that night and I believe he could have killed her in a moment of rage and then tried to disguise the murder as being the work or the serial "werewolf". Also Jeanne was seen with an unknown man on the night she died, possibly her killer, difficult to say for sure. But it's another fascinating case. :yes:

Edited by JonathanVonErich

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No Jon I don't think Dorothy French had anything to do with BD's murder.

Mark Hansen from The Florentine Gardens was on the cops' radar but he managed to slither away relatively unscathed. So did Ann Toth. I think both of them knew more than they ever told officially.

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Ah ok. I was talking about Dorothy because you wrote in a previous post that "You could also speculate about Dorothy French", I thought you were saying that she could have been involved in the murder. :)

About Hansen and Toth: Same here, I feel like they knew more than what they told the investigators. I don't think they were involved in the murder, but I'm sure they decided not to tell the truth on who was with Beth shortly before she died, who was seen with her, etc.

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florentine-gardens02.JPG

This was the Florentine Gardens in 2010. I'm not sure if it's still standing.

This isn't a very good vid but it's WW2 vintage and BD would have experienced this.

http://lakompany.blo...ne-gardens.html

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Thanks for sharing Ant.

Yep, the Florentine is still there, parts of it were recently renovated, it's now a nightclub. Very fascinating place, full of history. Safe to say almost every big names in Hollywood went there at least once.

So 2 months ago the more recent book about the Dahlia case was published. Black Dahlia Avenger 2, by Steve Hodel, is the follow-up investigation about the possibility that George Hodel was the Dahlia murderer. Steve Hodel claims he have found new evidences linking his father to the crime and to other cases from the 1940's. Avenger 1 was a good read, and overall I thought Hodel did a solid job, but I am not convinced at all that George Hodel was the killer of Beth Short, or that he was a serial killer. In my opinion nothing solid link him to the case, and all Hodel found in the first volume is a series of circumstancial evidences, lot of them based on fantasy and wishful thinking. Still, I can't wait to read this Volume 2, maybe ( just maybe ) Hodel really found some new evidences. Judging by the reviews on Amazon I doubt he solved the case, but we'll see. I'll share my opinion as soon as I read the book. :)

Black Dahlia Avenger II : http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0983074445/ref=ox_sc_act_title_5?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER

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jon I'll be interested to read what you make of his new book. Personally, I'm completely over Hodel banging on about his father being the killer. Hodel Snr may have been the killer(and I don't think he was) but his son does not prove that.

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I'm still trying to find more information about Norma Lee Myer. Shortly after the amazing interview she gave ( interview that I shared in a previous post ), Norma was sent back to her family, then she disappeared once again, this time for good. I wonder what happened to her.

lynn_martin_thumb.jpg

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I went looking for Myer and came across this instead re Ann Toth.

From Frank Jemison's 1951 report to the LA DA about possible suspects.

Michael Otero admitted going out with Short 12 times and once Ann Toth brought Short to meet Otero at the Biltmore Hotel. Otero was with Short on Dec 6 1946 the day before she left San Diego. He is the only known boyfriend who was meeting Short at the Biltmore.

http://blackdahlia.i....php?storyid=4/

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Thanks for the info, Ant, never heard of this Otero before. :tu:

Ann Toth is another interesting character. Ann "disappeared" shortly after the investigation, and we don't know what happened to her. Last we heard from her was in 1950. Maybe she is still alive, who knows. My guess is that she was afraid of being/feeling harassed by reporters or cops and decided to leave the city, probably changed her name and appearance. I'm only speculating, I don't know what happened to her, but that's how I feel. Larry Harnisch once said that Ann died years ago, but he had no evidences to back up his claim, and from what I've read he wasn't able to give an exact date.

I'm convinced Ann knew more than what she told the investigators. Maybe she left the city because she was afraid of becoming the next victim, it's another possibility. Maybe there's nothing mysterious about her "disappearance", maybe she was unable to find another acting job and decided to leave LA to raise a family, but the fact she vanished soon after the investigation ended is strange and intriguing. I'm trying to find more info.

Anna%20Toth_thumb.jpg

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Otero is an interesting character.

Michael Anthony Otero, lived at the time of the murder at 3940 Marathon Street, Normandy 2-3632, with Albert Rodriguez. Shortly after the murder, he left the United States and resides in Barcelona, Spain. Approximately, on September 1, 1950, he returned to New York and is now residing there at an address known only to his brother. He has admitted going out with victim Short, twelve times and least on one occasion Ann Toth took victim to the Biltmore Hotel to meet this suspect whom she referred to as her Spanish teacher. His spanish book was found in her effects. He was with victim on December 6, 1946, the day before she left for San Diego. He is the only known boy friend who was meeting her at the Biltmore Hotel where she was last seen alive. Albert Rodriguez still resides at 3940 Marathon, Los Angeles, and has not been questioned. See Robert Manley’s statement in which he states that two days before he left San Diego with victim to bring her up to Los Angeles, that the victim had specified in requesting him to take her that she would like him to take her to the Biltmore Hotel in Los Angeles.

http://www.bethshort...4ca45b9efdd132b

Lots of interesting discussion about Otero.

Two weeks after the crime, the killer sent a note to the newspaper (Herald-Examiner) stating “Here! Is Dahlia’s Belongings, letter to follow.” This note was accompanied by some personal belongings of the victim.

This note is of paramount importance, as it is the only piece of evidence which we know came directly from the killer.

The note contains a grammatical error (“Here is Dahlia’s belongings” instead of "Here are..."). I wonder if the killer, while obviously smart, was unused to the English language--that is, foreign. I think the killer’s note has a stilted quality. The word “belongings” used instead of simply “things.” The use of this long word, “belongings,” is especially surprising considering the killer had to cut out each letter.

Another thing I find strange is that the killer left an exclamation point on the word “Here” (“Here! is Dahlia’s Belongings.”) Why not just cut it off. This is at odds with the patience and meticulousness the killer displayed in most aspects of the crime. The note indicates patience and care in other ways—most of the letters have been individually cut out and pasted very carefully. The crime as a whole indicates a “perfectionist” mentality, so why the carelessness here. But a foreigner would not necessarily see anything wrong with an exclamation point in the middle of a sentence. In Spanish, this would be common.

Makes me wonder about the "Spanish teacher."

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This is one of the most fascinating unsolved or murder cases for me too. I recently read John Gilmore's Severed. It was an interesting read and it was good to finally get round to checking it out after being aware of it for a while. But I couldn't help noticing, as other readers have, that very little dates are given and even less sources. Other sites or readers have compared it to the misinformation and myth making of Robert Graysmith's work on the Zodiac case. I know JonathanVonErich already explained to me elsewhere that the false genitalia information given in Gilmore's book was a mistake because the autopsy information wasn't available at the time. But I'm wondering what Dahlia researchers think about the book in general (I certainly know firsthand how engaging and readable it can be)? For instance Gilmore suggests that Beth Short and Georgette Bauerdorf would have been likely to have known each other from frequenting the same nightspot (where Georgette worked) but I've seen it mentioned elsewhere that Beth wasn't in L.A. at that time and only began to visit the nightspot after Bauerdorf's murder.

I'm also curious about what Larry Harnisch suggests about a number of fictional sources, places and events: http://lmharnisch.com/no_shows.html

Are the criticisms of John Gilmore's book accurate or is it his critics that have it wrong?

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I'm not sure if Gilmore posits BD and Bauerdorff knowing each other but Wolffe certainly does. According to him, they both worked at the Hollywood Canteen at the same time and knew each other.

Bauerdorff volunteered there for sure but there is no proof that BD ever did and certainly nothing concrete that they ever knew each other.

And I include Bauerdorff's diary in that statement.

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Do You think the Killer of the Black Dahlia(Elizabeth Short) will ever be discovered? I vaigely remember a Person a while back saying that they believed their late Father killed the Black Dahlia.

there were at least two books claiming to know the identity of the killer.

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