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Dave67

The Black Dahlia mystery

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Again great jon Ant, thanks for sharing more info about Otero, I agree he's a very interesting suspect. :tu:

Makes me wonder about the "Spanish teacher."

If my memory is correct Wolfe claims in "The Black Dahlia Files" that the teacher was probably Maurice Clement, an alleged associate of Brenda Allen. Wolfe claims Clement was part of "the team" who killed Beth. Now a lot of people believe Wolfe created the link between Clement and Allen, and that Clement had nothing to do with the murder. However there's no doubt that at one point Clement was a suspect in the case; he was listed at number 7 on the D.A.'s list of suspects. Quite frankly I don't know what to believe, seems to be a lot of false informations about this man, difficult to really know the truth.

More about Maurice Clement: http://www.bethshort.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=458

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Posted (edited)

This is one of the most fascinating unsolved or murder cases for me too. I recently read John Gilmore's Severed. It was an interesting read and it was good to finally get round to checking it out after being aware of it for a while. But I couldn't help noticing, as other readers have, that very little dates are given and even less sources. Other sites or readers have compared it to the misinformation and myth making of Robert Graysmith's work on the Zodiac case. I know JonathanVonErich already explained to me elsewhere that the false genitalia information given in Gilmore's book was a mistake because the autopsy information wasn't available at the time. But I'm wondering what Dahlia researchers think about the book in general (I certainly know firsthand how engaging and readable it can be)? For instance Gilmore suggests that Beth Short and Georgette Bauerdorf would have been likely to have known each other from frequenting the same nightspot (where Georgette worked) but I've seen it mentioned elsewhere that Beth wasn't in L.A. at that time and only began to visit the nightspot after Bauerdorf's murder.

I'm also curious about what Larry Harnisch suggests about a number of fictional sources, places and events: http://lmharnisch.com/no_shows.html

Are the criticisms of John Gilmore's book accurate or is it his critics that have it wrong?

Great post Shosanna. :)

I have read Severed 5 times, by far one of the most interesting book I have ever read, one of my favorites. John Gilmore is a great researcher and great writer, one of the most respected American writer of the past 25 years.

Now is the book reliable from beginning to end ?? No. Like you said Shosanna, very little dates are given and even less sources. I don't think it's as bad as what Robert Graysmith did in Zodiac, but saying that everything Gilmore wrote is accurate would be a lie.

About the dates: That's one of the first thing that struck me when I first read the book, very little are given, and many people have a problem with that. I agree, it's a flaw, but it's understandable for many reasons. We have to remember that Gilmore conducted the interviews with the witnesses 30, even 40 years after the facts, only logical that most people who met Beth were not able to remember exactly when the events took place. Frustrating ? Yes, but understandable. The list given by Harnisch is also controversial, he clearly have an aganeda against anyone who doesn't agree with his theory, therefore I'm highly suspicious of anything he's saying. He could be write on certain things, but to say that the book is not reliable because of 3 or 4 mistakes would be absurd.

About the sources: Very little sources are given, and it's frustrating, but here I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the author. Gilmore is the first who really investigated the case, first who took the time to talk to these people, therefore I doubt very seriously that he created events or "characters" like some people are saying. Again, difficult to know the truth, but from what I know ( and I don't claim that I know everything ), 95% of what Gilmore wrote really happened, or at least he didn't created anything.Of course he added some drama and melodramatic elements to the book ( like every talented writer would I guess ), but there's no solid proof that he created stuff just to make the "ride" more interesting. I trust Gilmore over Larry Harnisch anytime, Harnisch seems to have a tendency of bashing other Dahlia authors.

Now if some so-called witnesses gave him false informations it's not really Gilmore's fault, remember that back when he wrote the book very little had been written about the case, therefore he could have easily been mistaken about some informations. Back when Gilmore wrote the book he didn't had access to the internet ( duh ), had no access to the D.A.'s files, that's why some details about the autopsy are wrong and that's why you'll find mistakes here and there ( like about the genitalia for example ). Gilmore spent decades researching the case, and in my opinion he did a very solid job, he is the first who uncovered the real Elizabeth Short, the first who showed to the world that Elizabeth was a great but lost girl and not the tease or hooker that so many people claims she was.

There's so many myths about this case that it's often difficult to know the truth. Is Severed a reliable book ?? Yes. Now how reliable it is ?? I'd say very reliable, at least 90% reliable, that's very good when you think Gilmore started basically from nothing, that he had to investigate everything by himself. Of course Gilmore added a little bit of drama, melodramatic elements to the book, but overall this is a very reliable book, still more reliable than the two books written by Steve Hodel, and in many ways more reliable than the book written by Donald Wolfe ( Gilmore worked with Wolfe on the book, the book is in many way a Severed volume 2, Wolfe quoting Severed at least a hundred times ).

Edited by JonathanVonErich
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Merci for the answers Antilles and JonathanVonErich. I've always liked the theory from Severed and the idea that the killer died in a mysterious fire before the police could move in on him. As some noted Ripperologist once said "The answer can only ever be perhaps" but there is something very eerie about that theory that I like. I would be interested in checking out Steve Hodel's books at some point just for posterity and an alternative theory.

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Posted (edited)

Bauerdorff volunteered there for sure but there is no proof that BD ever did and certainly nothing concrete that they ever knew each other.

Well said Ant.

There's absolutely no evidences that Beth and Georgette knew each other, none. There's even no evidences that the two of them were once in the same room. Intriguing possibility, but I'm waiting for the evidences. Georgette had many friends, she was the kind of girl who talked to anybody, so maybe they once talked to each other, but there's no way to know.

Merci for the answers Antilles and JonathanVonErich. I've always liked the theory from Severed and the idea that the killer died in a mysterious fire before the police could move in on him. As some noted Ripperologist once said "The answer can only ever be perhaps" but there is something very eerie about that theory that I like. I would be interested in checking out Steve Hodel's books at some point just for posterity and an alternative theory.

You're welcome chère amie. :)

I would like to read more about what you think of Severed. Also I recommend you Childhood Shadows, by Mary Pacios. She was once friend with Beth when they were very young, and this is a great book for anybody who wants to know the "real" Elizabeth Short. The book is far from being perfect ( her theories about who might have killed her are laughable at best ), but the chapters about Beth are very good.

Link to Amazon: http://www.amazon.co...38082924&sr=8-1

Edited by JonathanVonErich
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I guess we always come back to 2 central questions: why was BD murdered and why was she tortured and murdered the way she was?

Her death, the manner of her death and the display of her body were a warning. Don't **** with me.

Not a random psycho. Not the Cleveland Torso Killer in LA for a sabbatical. :gun:

Her death was mob related - she knew and associated with too many people involved in prostitution and the rackets for it to be any other way.

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BD's death was bad.

Really bad.

She never deserved the agony she endured.

It was a mob job.

Convinced.

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Lets face it anyone conneted to the Black Dahlia case is dead. This case will never be solved. Just let her rest and be done with it.

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If you go to www.stevehodel.com he has something about his new book,Black Dahlia Avenger 2,and other cases. Also, when googling George Hodel,came across w.w.w.onedayshelldarken.com It is the website of Fauna Hodel, the niece of Steve,and granddaughter of George Hodel.

Her mother,Tamar Hodel back in the 1940s brought charges of incest against her father and Steve mentions this in his first book on the Black Dahlia.Fauna has written a book One Day She'll Darken,about her life. She mentions that her mother stated on the birth certificate that her father was black, but the lady who raised her ,Jimmie Lee always had doubts about that,and really believed Fauna's father was a white man.

Her website also mentions that there was going to be a movie made about her life with Alfie Woodard,and several other stars, but the project was halted for unknown reasons.

I don't think Hodel was BD's killer.He was a very intelligent man,and certainly would have disposed of the body ,not left it out in the open.I mean if i was a killer, I know lots of places around the Texas Hill Country,abandoned farms and old dirt roads where one could hide a body and it would never been found.

I think there are plenty of suspects to go around, but I don't think we will ever know who her killer was. The same goes for Jack the Ripper,we still have no idea who commited his horrible crimes.

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Posted (edited)

Lets face it anyone conneted to the Black Dahlia case is dead. This case will never be solved. Just let her rest and be done with it.

I highly disagree with you.

This case needs to be closed. The fact everybody connected with the case is dead means nothing.

The Short family deserves to know the truth, relatives of the family deserves to know the truth, even family members of the investigators deserves to know the truth. We must know who the killer(s) was, I think it's very important. Elizabeth Short didn't deserved to be murdered, she didn't deserved everything that had happened to her, and the only thing we can do is to find the killer and expose him/them.

We need to find the truth. For Elizabeth.

Edited by JonathanVonErich
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Posted (edited)

I highly disagree with you.

This case needs to be closed. The fact everybody connected with the case is dead means nothing.

The Short family deserves to know the truth, relatives of the family deserves to know the truth, even family members of the investigators deserves to know the truth. We must know who the killer(s) was, I think it's very important. Elizabeth Short didn't deserved to be murdered, she didn't deserved everything that had happened to her, and the only thing we can do is to find the killer and expose him/them.

We need to find the truth. For Elizabeth.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Well said.

I'm not interested in gruesome photos of Beth's body which seems to be what a lot of people associate this crime with.

I want to know why she died and who killed her.

She may not have had much of a life but she never did anything to warrant such an atrocious death.

Great post jon. :yes:

Edited by Antilles
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I want to know why she died and who killed her.

She may not have had much of a life but she never did anything to warrant such an atrocious death.

Great post jon. :yes:

Thanks Ant. :tu:

This is what it's all about: who and why ??

Elizabeth was a good girl, a lost girl but still a good girl. Nobody deserve to die the way she did, nobody. Yeah, she might have been a tease and might have lied to the people who trusted her, but it's clear to me that she was a good person. And it's very sad that her mother and sisters all died without knowing who did this to her. It's another injustice to the Short family. Not only did they lost a good girl in Elizabeth, but they died without knowing the truth. Horrible.

This case needs to be closed, independant investigators like me and Ant will never give up. We must find the truth. We have to.

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Good to see you back, jon. :yes:

I know I've said this before, somewhere, but this case is a Raymond Chandler novel in real life. The people whose lives BD flitted through and who in turn touched hers, is just mind boggling. For a girl who was in no way famous until her death, she knew a lot of people and some of them were not really good to know.

And you know I absolutely agree with you that her death is worth discussing - her life had value, certainly to herself and to her family. If that was my sister carved into 2 pieces and left like that on a curb, I'd want to know who killed her. And why. What was it she did or knew that made her life end like that?

I do not and never have believed BD was murdered by a lone psycho. Her body was severed by a skilled surgeon but mutilated by a madman. I believe there had to be at least 2 people involved in her murder.

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I think the main thing that makes this such a difficult case is that (in my opinion) Smart was a high risk victim.

I don't have any more to comment on except that I don't know of any evidence which could suggest that there was more than one person involved in her murder.

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i appologise for re-starting this thread, but ive just read through this and am really interested....

"Just a few days after the finding, two homicide officers sat in a restaurant, discussing the case. After returning to headquarters, they got a call from a man, stating he just spotted the killers. The gentleman was a waiter in the restaurant, and his named suspects were the two officers."

surely there is nothing more to this than the waiter thought as the officers were discussing the case, they were almost "bragging" about being the murders???? ( obviously they wernt but how would the waiter know that?)

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i appologise for re-starting this thread, but ive just read through this and am really interested....

"Just a few days after the finding, two homicide officers sat in a restaurant, discussing the case. After returning to headquarters, they got a call from a man, stating he just spotted the killers. The gentleman was a waiter in the restaurant, and his named suspects were the two officers."

surely there is nothing more to this than the waiter thought as the officers were discussing the case, they were almost "bragging" about being the murders???? ( obviously they wernt but how would the waiter know that?)

Don't apologise. I'm glad you started the discussion again. :yes: Can you give me the post number you've quoted?

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So both Ann Toth and Norma Lee Myer disappeared shortly after Short's murder?? That is strange. I never heard about this before. I wonder what happened to them?

After the grand jury disbanded at the end of the year, the active investigation of the murder of Elizabeth Short began a descent that led to cold case oblivion. The last known time that investigators interviewed Anne was in 1950. Anne, like Lynn Martin, disappeared. Trying to follow her story is like chasing clouds on a windy day.

Taken from http://www.theblackdahliainhollywood.com/?p=71

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that quote is from the bd website http://www.mulhollan...blackdahlia.htm

OK, I got you. I think maybe everyone was playing find the murderer at that stage. But, plainclothes officers. Waiter didn't know that so he did the right thing.

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So both Ann Toth and Norma Lee Myer disappeared shortly after Short's murder?? That is strange. I never heard about this before. I wonder what happened to them?

They were drifters, on the fringes of LA and in the action for a short while (forgive the pun). :yes: Their notoriety could have finished finished them. Perhaps, they were both scared about what they'd been mixed up in and split. Maybe, someone suggested to both of them that a permanent vacation from LA would be a good career move. Those are 3 possibles. Any you can add?

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was it ever decided if she was "cut up" where she was found or if she was moved before????

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was it ever decided if she was "cut up" where she was found or if she was moved before????

She was mutilated before she was dumped. Her body had been drained of blood.

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They were drifters, on the fringes of LA and in the action for a short while (forgive the pun). :yes: Their notoriety could have finished finished them. Perhaps, they were both scared about what they'd been mixed up in and split. Maybe, someone suggested to both of them that a permanent vacation from LA would be a good career move. Those are 3 possibles. Any you can add?

Too bad the 1950 Census Data is not available yet! The 1940 Census data just came out last year. I wonder if you could find out what happened to them using Vital and census type records? Has anyone done this before?

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Too bad the 1950 Census Data is not available yet! The 1940 Census data just came out last year. I wonder if you could find out what happened to them using Vital and census type records? Has anyone done this before?

Not as far as I know. Doesn't mean it hasn't been attempted.

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I'm wondering if anyone can fill me in on the reported "genital/reproductive defect" issue. I've looked into this myself, but I keep getting all kinds of different information. It's getting very confusing to me.

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I'm wondering if anyone can fill me in on the reported "genital/reproductive defect" issue. I've looked into this myself, but I keep getting all kinds of different information. It's getting very confusing to me.

Different sources say different things but if the source came from John Gilmore I don't believe it can be trusted.This link says the autopsy revealed everything was normal

http://www.crimeandinvestigation.co.uk/crime-files/elizabeth-short-the-black-dahlia/aftermath

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