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Dave67

The Black Dahlia mystery

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I think casey anthony, jodi arias and oj simpson pooled there money together and built a time machine.

Let's pray that cable news networks don't know about it. If so, they'll get stuck in a time warp.

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Let's pray that cable news networks don't know about it. If so, they'll get stuck in a time warp.

Don't worry Nancy Grace would be to dumb to work it.

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Don't worry Nancy Grace would be to dumb to work it.

She's proof that the devil is a woman. She likely would use the time machine to travel back to the Inquisition.

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Thats a great piece,thanks for posting

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Posted (edited)

I read John Douglas's book, The Cases That Still Haunt Us, and just dug it out and re-read the Dahlia section. Thanks for reminding me. I had forgotten he actually named a good suspect, Jack Anderson Wilson aka Arnold Smith. Apparently he knew facts about both the Dahlia murder and another murder that could be related but he attributed his knowledge to someone he said was the real killer. Wilson died in a fire before detectives on the case could interview him. He had made a statement regarding the person he alledged was the real killer to Sheriff investigators. THose investigators had set up a meeting with detectives, but because he died it never happened.

Well, I've now read the Dahlia section in Douglas' book and I'm not sure if Smith was a good suspect or not primarily because I don't think he described what the crime scene (including the body, of course) showed.

I don't get why Douglas considers that other murder a lust murder. Btw, I've read recently that that's a rather old term for that, anyway.... that murder doesn't look like what I understand a lust murder looks like.

I'm hesitant to link cases and I'm not under the impression that that murder was linked to Shorts.

Now, there was info. that the two girls knew each other through one of their hangouts and I wonder if that hangout was the Hollywood Canteen. Regardless, I don't know how that could have been determined that they'd known each other and they were in LA at the same time for only about half a year, so they couldn't have known each other very well, I don't think. Of course, the perp could have been familiar with both by frequenting the same place/area.

Still- and although I know perps can evolve in their crimes- it doesn't look like it's the same perp in the Bauerdorf case.

Bottom line, I agree with Douglas that we'll probably never know for sure who killed Short, but that he was likely- or on his way to becoming- a serial killer (definitely lust type).

Edited by regi

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Bauderdorf is a red herring thrown up at regular intervals. Serial killers kill more than once. The Cleveland Torso murders are often touted as being related to Beth Short's murder. They weren't.

If Beth Short was murdered by a serial killer he was either incompetent or completely changed his MO. Beth was murdered by a psychopath and dismembered by a doctor.

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Posted (edited)

Bauderdorf is a red herring thrown up at regular intervals. Serial killers kill more than once. The Cleveland Torso murders are often touted as being related to Beth Short's murder. They weren't.

Re: Bauderdorf, I think it was because there was rape in the Bauerdorf case that Douglas considered it 'lust' murder. (It's since occurred to me that the element of rape could/or would be enough to classify it as such. :blush: )

If Beth Short was murdered by a serial killer he was either incompetent or completely changed his MO.

In his book, The Cases That Haunt Us, Douglas explains that after this crime, he "wouldn't have been surprised to see some major emotional disintegration" of the perp. He goes on "If it was severe enough, it could have precluded him from committing and getting away with additional crimes of this nature, but then we'd expect him to have been picked up or identified. Either way...it should have been possible to recognize someone's post-offense behavior, whether that behavior involved another lust murder, a nervous breakdown, institutionalization, or suicide."

Edited by regi

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Re: Bauderdorf, I think it was because there was rape in the Bauerdorf case that Douglas considered it 'lust' murder. (It's since occurred to me that the element of rape could/or would be enough to classify it as such. :blush: )

In his book, The Cases That Haunt Us, Douglas explains that after this crime, he "wouldn't have been surprised to see some major emotional disintegration" of the perp. He goes on "If it was severe enough, it could have precluded him from committing and getting away with additional crimes of this nature, but then we'd expect him to have been picked up or identified. Either way...it should have been possible to recognize someone's post-offense behavior, whether that behavior involved another lust murder, a nervous breakdown, institutionalization, or suicide."

I wonder about the disfiguration of the body and face. That carved smile is haunting. Clearly these were signatures and reveals something about this killer. I just don't know what that is. This body was posed and the killer wanted it discovered based on where he placed it. And he wanted some kind of shock value. he could have dumped in some canyon or forest and it might never have been found. Whoever did this, was not reacting to some immediate passion. He did it for his own personal reasons and I am not sure he cared who the victim was. That is why I think its a serial killer. It could have been a doctor, or maybe a butcher, or a hunter. I doubt it was his first and odds are not his last.

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Posted (edited)

I wonder about the disfiguration of the body and face. That carved smile is haunting. Clearly these were signatures and reveals something about this killer. I just don't know what that is. This body was posed and the killer wanted it discovered based on where he placed it. And he wanted some kind of shock value.

Right?! I agree and like you, I don't know what the significance of the carving to the mouth was to the perp- or that to the breasts (I'd forgotten about that), but I think you're correct that those things are considered 'signatures' for that particular perp. (lust killer)

I haven't studied many serial killer cases, but I know that those aspects shown in this case- likely torture (she was tied) and mutilation and the posing are common among a lot of serial killers.

Edited by regi

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I wonder about the disfiguration of the body and face. That carved smile is haunting. Clearly these were signatures and reveals something about this killer. I just don't know what that is. This body was posed and the killer wanted it discovered based on where he placed it. And he wanted some kind of shock value. he could have dumped in some canyon or forest and it might never have been found. Whoever did this, was not reacting to some immediate passion. He did it for his own personal reasons and I am not sure he cared who the victim was. That is why I think its a serial killer. It could have been a doctor, or maybe a butcher, or a hunter. I doubt it was his first and odds are not his last.

You see thats where I differ,I believe the facial disfigurement was personal and was done by somebody who knew her and was possibly rejected by her .I think if it didn't matter who the victim was we would've seen similar murders.I can't think of any like it.

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You see thats where I differ,I believe the facial disfigurement was personal and was done by somebody who knew her and was possibly rejected by her .I think if it didn't matter who the victim was we would've seen similar murders.I can't think of any like it.

Yes that is where we differ. I don't think even an angry rejectee would react like this. This perp held her for some time and tortured her. He mutilated her and cut her in half, whether part of his signature of for ease of movement..that is pretty extreme. Most times when someone kills someone they know they hide the body, bury it, or just cover it up with something,...kind of an act of shame. This perp posed her in the open. He wanted her found and he wanted his work to shock. I really don't see a spurned person doing this unless they are already fantasing about it. He carved her face like raggety annie or a clown. This is something very demented and was a message about who he is. Its not just an angry man. It could even be a woman. I agree with you, that you would think we would see similar murders somewhere. I am not sure any have been reported with this level of mutilation.

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Perhaps the facial disfigurement was due to her beauty. She was quite beautiful for her time and weather the perp knew her or not, they could have been resentful of that.

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The facial disfigurement was: because the murderer knew her personally and really hated her; it was a message from her killer warning others (and if so, then I'd figure it was to do with prositutes not talking). Not a serial killer. no. I just don't think this case falls into any pattern.

The dismemberment was professionally done. So a doctor. Has to have been. Post mortem. The face - she died from the shock and loss of blood with her face being carved. That was either personal or a source of pleasure, maybe both, to her killer.

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Perhaps the facial disfigurement was due to her beauty. She was quite beautiful for her time and weather the perp knew her or not, they could have been resentful of that.

I think the killer definitely resented her beauty.I've been thinking maybe the killer was some kind of stalker,somebody who frequented the same places she did but perhaps didn't know her but built up an irrational hatred of her due to rejection or just because he knew it was somebody they could ever hope to be with.

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Yes that is where we differ. I don't think even an angry rejectee would react like this. This perp held her for some time and tortured her. He mutilated her and cut her in half, whether part of his signature of for ease of movement..that is pretty extreme. Most times when someone kills someone they know they hide the body, bury it, or just cover it up with something,...kind of an act of shame. This perp posed her in the open. He wanted her found and he wanted his work to shock. I really don't see a spurned person doing this unless they are already fantasing about it. He carved her face like raggety annie or a clown. This is something very demented and was a message about who he is. Its not just an angry man. It could even be a woman. I agree with you, that you would think we would see similar murders somewhere. I am not sure any have been reported with this level of mutilation.

The posing of the body to shock reminds me of the Hillside Stranglers who also left their victims,for the most part,on public view with their legs wide open.Obviously without the mutilation we see here but they too tortured their victims.

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Here's info. re: lust killers.

http://www.practical.../lustmurder.htm

I really think the lust killer model fits this case. I agree also it could be a doctor or someone who understands anatomy. I am not convinced it was a spurned man, but it could be someone in her social circle. Maybe not a close person but someone who goes to the same clubs. I think she was lured to his home or office where the murder occurred. He had to have plenty of time and had to know he would not be heard or interrupted. I also wonder why at least this type of crime stopped. It is possible the police got very close and he was spooked. He either moved away, died, or changed his MO. I doubt he could stop. As far as the disfigurement being personal, perhaps. But it might be an expression of hatred for all beautiful women. I know Hodel thinks it his father the doctor, but there was another doctor who lived down the street from where the body was found. I think Short had a social connection with his daughter.

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I don't think even an angry rejectee would react like this.

I agree. I don't think the injuries indicate that type of thing because such injuries would be stab wounds, a throat laceration or those associated with strangling; those which reflect an immediate rage.

Btw, such injuries could also indicate a close relationship between the perp and victim, yet they're absent.

Most times when someone kills someone they know they hide the body, bury it, or just cover it up with something,...kind of an act of shame. This perp posed her in the open. He wanted her found and he wanted his work to shock.

I agree. All of that also points away from the perp having known Short.

He carved her face like raggety annie or a clown.

To me, it looks like an expression that reflects something along the lines of 'I got what I deserved and/or was looking for', but heck if I know! I think only the perp could know for sure what that meant to him.

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I r He had to have plenty of time and had to know he would not be heard or interrupted.

Yes, and it appears the perp held her- at least held her body- since soon after the last confirmed sighting- that is, since her last known whereabouts- the day she arrived back in LA.

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I really think the lust killer model fits this case. I agree also it could be a doctor or someone who understands anatomy. I am not convinced it was a spurned man, but it could be someone in her social circle. Maybe not a close person but someone who goes to the same clubs. I think she was lured to his home or office where the murder occurred. He had to have plenty of time and had to know he would not be heard or interrupted. I also wonder why at least this type of crime stopped. It is possible the police got very close and he was spooked. He either moved away, died, or changed his MO. I doubt he could stop. As far as the disfigurement being personal, perhaps. But it might be an expression of hatred for all beautiful women. I know Hodel thinks it his father the doctor, but there was another doctor who lived down the street from where the body was found. I think Short had a social connection with his daughter.

Larry Harnisch believes the killer is somebody called Bayley,a surgeon, who was going senile at the time of the crime I think that is who you refer to.A great summing up of his theory can be found here,be sure to watch all 3 parts

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RUPKbDebSA[/media]

His website can be found here

http://www.lmharnisch.com/

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Re: Bauderdorf, I think it was because there was rape in the Bauerdorf case that Douglas considered it 'lust' murder. (It's since occurred to me that the element of rape could/or would be enough to classify it as such. :blush: )

After reading that lust killer info., I'm back to not understanding what it specifically was about the Bauerdorf case that caused Douglas to consider it a lust murder.

Per Gerberth, "lust murderers can also be distinguished from other sex related homicide offenders.." so, it sounds to me like there could be rape but that alone doesn't "distinguish" a lust killer.

Granted, I may not know all the details of the Bauerdorf case, but based on what I've read about it, I don't see any of the elements which distinguish a 'lust killer'.

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His website can be found here

http://www.lmharnisch.com/

I started by reading the "FAQ" as they're referred to and he pretends to know the intent of the bisection, so rather immediately, I'm not impressed. :td:

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Posted (edited)

Larry Harnisch believes the killer is somebody called Bayley,a surgeon, who was going senile at the time of the crime I think that is who you refer to.A great summing up of his theory can be found here,be sure to watch all 3 parts

His website can be found here

http://www.lmharnisch.com/

That's the one i was thinking of. Can't remember where i had read about it or how long ago. Forgotten all the coincidences. I did listen to all three parts. I do think this doctor might be good for it. Makes sense this perp would want to see all the police at the scene and how the discovery unfolded. But I had forgotten about the mistress who was also a doctor and partner in his practice. You know she might be good for it too. If she got jealous and wanted to dump this girl next to the good doctor/s neighborhood. She also might have needed to cut her in half to move her more easily. But then there is the supposed secret she kept for him. Thanks for this link. I cannot rule him out.

Edited by mbrn30000

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I started by reading the "FAQ" as they're referred to and he pretends to know the intent of the bisection, so rather immediately, I'm not impressed. :td:

To be fair it's in response to similarities between that case and the torso killings in Cleveland he only says the bisection of Beth Short was not done for the purposeness of concealment which is true,the killer left all the pieces on public view,unlike the Cleveland Torso killer who generally dismembered his victims and put them in different places

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