Is it possible for a God to be almighty ?

[Xenojjin]

I agree with that err ummmm ... seraphina clone ...

Why do you have the same avatar as her ?

[TheLight]

here's a link about how the Big Bang may have started

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astr...e_010413-1.html

I already knew about this one, this is yet another unverifiable prediction from the string theory (some serious scientists would rather call it a philosophy though).

[Potholer]

how do you know for sure an almighty god would need energy in the first place ?

I was under the impression that everything is a form of energy. The earth is a whole bussling bunch of particles. We are energy. I also assumed (which probably isn't such a good idea....) that the whole 'everything is energy' explanation also covered apparitions, ghosts, beings, of any sort, all require energy to exist.

Ugh, it sounded so much more logical in my mind...

[Seraphina]

but most God fearing religions will agree that God is not a physical being

I wholeheartedly agree with you

My point was actually that science has not come far enough to disprove the existance of an almighty god

We've certainly presented far more evidence than religion, which so far has managed to veiw speculative 'facts', more often than not spouted by fanatics, who refuse to come out of the backward thinking era of the time the bible was written.

There are so many contradictions in religion, and for that matter in the arguements that religious people make in its favour, that it baffles me how belief in god can hang by anything greater than a thread

And by the way...you'd parent-child relationship between humans and god...god's a really lousy parent First he spends thousands of years murdering his children in droves, and then is content to sit and watch them wallow in misery in a rather harsh world, without even giving us a peek at this divine paradise he supposedly has in store for us.

Argueing that science is full of crap, despite the fact that we actually have this little trick of investigating what we say and think, while taking what was written in a book, with about as much proof behind it as Bill Clinton's "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" is the idea that is "endlessly stupid", as you so nicely put it.

I think I'm beginning to realise you are probably right about one thing...I probably AM wasting me time trying to use logic to argue against ignorance and hard headedness

[Xenojjin]

First of all , god lets humans do as they wish even if its wrong... and you are blaming everything on god . Have you not forgotten about satan ?

As for your scientific theory I am not ignorant I have just seen many loopholes in every evolution supported theory I have heard of .

I am basically asking you to back up your claims , Post some scientific evidence that god doesn't exist ( besides the ATP argument that assumes God is a carbon based lifeform , which he is not )

And furthermore , post some contradictions in religion . I have looked at most of them and explained them , I want something new if you can get it .

[Seraphina]

lol...just about any scientific theory even devised contradicts the bible my zealous friend. You say you see 'massive loopholes' in every theory of evolution...funny how the educated world, you know, the people who investigate what they're preaching does not...

First of all , god lets humans do as they wish even if its wrong... and you are blaming everything on god . Have you not forgotten about satan ?

Well, since you brought it up...allow me to explain to you exactly what the bible (specificaly the old testament) is. You can choose to disagree if you want, it's no real skin off my nose, but here is what the bible appears to be on it's face value.

Control.

Considering Satan...exactly what were his crimes? The bible tells us that he was cast out paradise for vanity or some such thing, placing himself beyond his station...but what crime did he ever actually commit?

Now, God...well, he spends most of the old testament slaughtering people Floods...plagues...other disasters...if, for the sake of humouring you, we assume that the bible is correct, then God has murdered literally millions of people in the last few thousand years...

What does the devel do? 'Lead them astray'?

The fact is, the bible on its face, represents an attempt at making people conform. Invented by those at the top of the social ladder to keep the peasants working the fields, happy with their lot no matter how tyranical their overlords, because that's where God put them.

The bible is full of stories of people enduring great hardship, but paradise waited for them at the end of it of course It's also full of people who went against the grain, who's only crime was to lead their life in a manner that did not 'conform' and were in some way brutally punished.

The very term 'god fearing' underlines that exactly...the bible was supposed to make people terrified to step out of line. It was designed to keep people in their place, convincing them that they would later be rewarded for their hardship...nothing more.

Now, let us consider the new testament....

Jesus, for all the claims that he was 'god's son'...pretty much contradicted everything his dad apparantly instructed people to do in the old testament we went from "worship me and conform to my wishes, or I shall kill you all!" to "turn the other cheek, my brothers."

Jesus' beliefs were entirerly unorthodox at that time, simply because it was so dramatically against the grain...if anything, Jesus was closer to Satan than he was to god, as he stepped outside the traditional veiw of how to lead your life Given all the strange stories that are now surfacing...the existance of his pregnant wife...the gigantic mistranlation of many of the 'miracles' he performed...it's quite likely that he never claimed to be the son of god either, and the church merely added this in to ensure their own beliefs and place in society endured by assossiating them with a man who was beloved by so many people.

Now...reflecting on your so called 'proof' of God's existance...please, give me a single example of a miracle that occured in recent history, that can be easily validated as an actual event, and that without a shadow of doubt was down to some kind of divine intervention...

If you can't do that, then all you have is an assumption against the investigated facts that science has provided...I know which side I would put my money on.

[TheLight]

And furthermore , post some contradictions in religion . I have looked at most of them and explained them , I want something new if you can get it .

How about for a God being "almighty" for a start ? Which by the way was the initial topic of this thread...

[babyforrest]

I agree with that err ummmm ... seraphina clone ...

Why do you have the same avatar as her ?

I have actually been here for longer than her, so technically, she is my clone. You should also say that she has the same aviater as me. That being said, I didn't upload my picture, I chose it from a list of choices when I became a member.

[Xenojjin]

How about for a God being "almighty" for a start ? Which by the way was the initial topic of this thread

How is that a contradiction ? You need to state what contradicts something else before it can be called a contradiction .

I need some more input .

[Xenojjin]

As for you seraphina , you call believing in god ignorant but I can now see it is you who is ignorant .

All of what you just stated are more of questions then contradictions . Questions that are answered in the bible often on the exact same page's you are reffering to . Have you atually read the bible ? Not just segments , but the whole thing ? I actually wouldn't believe you if you said you did . Why ?

Considering Satan...exactly what were his crimes? The bible tells us that he was cast out paradise for vanity or some such thing, placing himself beyond his station...but what crime did he ever actually commit?

Do you honestly not know ? And yet here you are trying to argue against him ?

* rather then waste time rewriting the story xenojjin figures seraphina should be able to find it in the bible herself *

As for the contradiction in the old and new testament , what you just mentioned is probobly the most common argued contradiction . It is also the most false .

The new testament does not contradict the old testament because in the new testament Jesus christ was to die for all our sins , which he did . Since jesus became the ultimate sacrifice , all of the rules given in the old testament were changed . Not by accident , it was on purpose . Has god scorched us since the death of jesus christ on a massive scale ? no . Because now that Jesus died the idea of punishment for sins being death is now nill . Thats why god had his own son die , because he himself saw that humans were not perfect enough to not sin and needed it . Because a death must be made to save others ( a dillema caused by satan ) but since Jesus would just come back to heaven since he was an immortal god in a human body that could his death paid an endless immortal sacrificing . ( In other words , god saw a loophole in satans plan and used it against him ) .

In a sense , the only reason we still keep the old testament around is for historical purposes . The Ideals on sin in the new and old testament ARE SUPPOSED to be differant .

The fact is, the bible on its face, represents an attempt at making people conform. Invented by those at the top of the social ladder to keep the peasants working the fields, happy with their lot no matter how tyranical their overlords, because that's where God put them.

The bible is full of stories of people enduring great hardship, but paradise waited for them at the end of it of course  It's also full of people who went against the grain, who's only crime was to lead their life in a manner that did not 'conform' and were in some way brutally punished.

The very term 'god fearing' underlines that exactly...the bible was supposed to make people terrified to step out of line. It was designed to keep people in their place, convincing them that they would later be rewarded for their hardship...nothing more.

Thank you for describing catholicism . Im not catholic , I am christian . Their is a big differance . Since you obviously dont know the differance despite what you may think , I suggest you go and find out before you continue this thread .

As for science contradicting god , God is defined as supernatural . ( look up supernatural in the dictionary ) . Basically if you believe in ghosts , souls ( which I know you believe in souls ) you are a hypocrite .

As for miracles , a mass of people

have reported seeing a display of heaven at the same time , not too long ago ( I am trying to find the full story ) . We have eyewitness accounts with far too great a majority involved to disperse them . On top of that science has failed to

disprove /scientifically explain faith healing , or the crying statues of jesus , which have been tested over and over by scientists who found no mechanical device in them . If you honestly think preists can come up with a device invisible to todays technology then thats pretty sad .

[babyforrest]

but most God fearing religions will agree that God is not a physical being

I wholeheartedly agree with you

I think I've misunderstood you. If you agree that God is not a physical being, then what was it you were saying about it is impossible for God to exist because ATP cannot continue to be produced in the body for eternity, therefore God would run out of energy? Also you said something about mitochondria. This is where you've lost me.

[TheLight]

How about for a God being "almighty" for a start ? Which by the way was the initial topic of this thread

How is that a contradiction ? You need to state what contradicts something else before it can be called a contradiction .

I need some more input .

Are the 5 pages of this thread not enough input for you ? What else do you need ?

[eddie]

Considering Satan...exactly what were his crimes? The bible tells us that he was cast out paradise for vanity or some such thing, placing himself beyond his station...but what crime did he ever actually commit?

The act that got the archangel banished toi earth was rebellion against God. If you understood the teachings of the Bible, instead of trying to discern it at face value, you could understand. If the teachings in the Bible were simple, they would be of man, not breathed by God. The Bible is not a read, it is a study.

Now, God...well, he spends most of the old testament slaughtering people  Floods...plagues...other disasters...if, for the sake of humouring you, we assume that the bible is correct, then God has murdered literally millions of people in the last few thousand years...

Most of the old testament actually is about the chosen people, the Jews, not listening to God and his wrath for their not listening. The point being, if God talks directly to you (through Moses) and you choose not to listen you will have a price to pay. The ten plagues upon Egypt were to prove to the unbelieving (something you're asking for) that God did protect the chosen people and he wanted them released from their bondage. They had ten opportunities to obey but they chose to ignore God.

The very term 'god fearing' underlines that exactly...the bible was supposed to make people terrified to step out of line. It was designed to keep people in their place, convincing them that they would later be rewarded for their hardship...nothing more.

I fear God because he is GOD. You see the negative, I see (through studying the Bible) his mercy and his grace. I see his love and his promises. You want miracles to happen to prove God exists, talk to Christians with ab open mind, you'll hear how he works in their lives. I've had my prayers answered, I've seen his works in my life. You see humility as a negative, I see it as a thank you to a God that answers my prayers. The more of myself I give up to the Lord, the more I let God work through me in the Holy spirit, this allows me to produce fruit, which means I have more joy, love, patience, kindness towards others. Jesus teaching also tells me that as I treat the meanest cruelest person, it is as I am treating Jesus himself. where's the bad here? If everyone followed the ten commandments, where's the bad? You see fearing God as a negative, I see it as a way of showing my adoration to God for his grace and mercy. Ironically, you see negative in where there is only positive to be gained.

If God sat in the sky above us, controlling everything that we did, how free would we be? Would we be able to love a God that acted this way, or would we just cower in fear after he performed obvious miracles to satisfy those that refused to believe. It's your choice to believe or not to. I only ask you not to ridicule those that do.

I personally find it to be a much longer stretch to say that everything started with a big bang, an omeba was created from NOTHING and then evolved into the universe. It's much more plausible to believe that an all knowing God ceated it all and us in his image and if we just don't deny him, we can have eternal life with him. Yeah, I see the fear......

Jesus' beliefs were entirerly unorthodox at that time, simply because it was so dramatically against the grain...if anything, Jesus was closer to Satan than he was to god, as he stepped outside the traditional veiw of how to lead your life

Your diatribe here shows your lack of understanding, if you don't understand the teachings, how can you dissprove them? The best example I can give for Jesus teachings "being against the grain" was that too many were so caught up in following the 'law' that they lost sight of the meaning of the teachings... The pharasies complained about some eating the wrong foods, Jesus explained it's much more important what comes out of a mans mouth than what goes into it. How is that so dificult to understand? To teach the Jews the power of God and that he was to be worshpped as God he had them provide sacrifice offerings in the form of sheep, cattle etc...Blood offerings, Jesus ultimate scarifice was the final blood offering, his blood covers YOUR sins and MINE. All of them. His sacrifice humbles me, as he knew what he was doinf=g and did not have to do it. The suffering he endured was immeasurable, he did this for me. Did you know that the term excruciating came from the pain one endured when a spike was driven through the wrist?

God bless you, He's always there for you no matter how much or how often you deny Him. You never know how much you need Jesus until Jesus is all you have.....

[Seraphina]

I think I've misunderstood you.  If you agree that God is not a physical being, then what was it you were saying about it is impossible for God to exist because ATP cannot continue to be produced in the body for eternity, therefore God would run out of energy?  Also you said something about mitochondria.  This is where you've lost me.

That was sarcasm my friend I do not hold to the outdated theory that god is any type of being, physical, magical, metaphysical, supernatural, or there at all for that matter

[babyforrest]

I know that. I've read enough of your posts to know where you stand on that subject. But I thought you were trying to disprove the existance of God by saying something about cells or whatever. That one left me scratching my head and saying to myself, "What the...?" You pretty much killed your arguement that God does not exist by saying something that makes no sense at all. Maybe I'm still misunderstanding you, I don't know anymore what you're talking about.

[Seraphina]

Basically, I was answering the origonal question of the topic..."can God be almighty?"

I was starting that all active transactions in the universe require energy, that's simply how it goes. This is a fact...chemical reactions need energy to power them, or nothing happens, unless it's going to be proposed that the world was created through a passive process....which, to be honest, I don't think is likely.

The above is fact...pure and simple.

The returned arguement was that god is a supernatural being, and did not 'need' energy...this is not fact, it's speculation, made in an attempt to dance around an opposing arguement. There is no proof whatsoever exactly what god is, assuming he exists at all, merely that he is a 'thing'. Making an assumption in an attempt to rule out a logical arguement merely seems to confirm that the arguements in favour of religion are hanging very much by a thread, and every and any arguement that they make (mostly taking solace in theories that cannot, and likely will never be proven right or wrong) is nothing but an attempt at survival.

[babyforrest]

A wise man from this forum once said to me something that I think applies to this situation.

Remember, though, nobody can prove or disprove God or the Bible, and they never will. If God can be proven, then what is the value of faith? Faith is beliving in something you can't prove exists.

You shouldn't undermine other people's beliefs, no matter how silly they may seem to you. Personally, I think that if I didn't have faith, I would have a bleak and dark outlook on life. My beliefs are not hanging by a thread.

[Seraphina]

I'm not trying to undermine anyone's beliefs, I'm just pointing out holes in the opposing arguement. It's actually my arguements that are repeatedly called 'stupid' or 'ridiculous', though I've yet to see anything remotely resembling a strong defence against them....just more and more speculation, and dancing around facts as best they can.

And I didn't mean individual faith is wavering...seems to me that there's enough evidence here alone that individual people seem to be as defensive as ever of their beliefs; I was refering to society as a whole. Every generation seems to have more and more athiests, and as a species we're moving towards a more scientific veiw of the universe than a spiritual one.

Let me ask you one question...what, exactly, have you gained from faith in god? I don't believe in god, yet I lead a happy life. I'm successful in my University course, I am one of the only teenagers in existance to who must have skipped that stage of being constantly depressed, and I'm extremely contented with my life

So...from that standpoint...what exactly does faith in god give you? I don't find my own confidence or happiness in any way shattered by my own lack of belief

[babyforrest]

Wow Sera. It must be so very difficult for you to be only a teenager and have the answers to everything. I guess thinking that I knew everything was the stage that I skipped as I grew up.

[thefirstman]

The point being, if God talks directly to you (through Moses) and you choose not to listen you will have a price to pay.

Whatever happened to the freedom of expressing your opinion???

[Seraphina]

Good question...the right to have an opinion different from someone else's without them rolling their eyes at you and accusing you of thinking you know everything

Why is it when a religious person presents an arguement, it's stating their veiw point.

When an athiest stats theirs, they're smart asses

It must be so very difficult for you to be only a teenager and have the answers to everything

I don't claim to have the answers to everything, but I do usually have an opinion on something, and I'm as free to express mine without being treated like a child, as you are to express yours

*looks at the age difference between herself and babyforest...sighs, and shakes her head*

[Xenojjin]

Why is it when a religious person presents an arguement, it's stating their veiw point.

When an athiest stats theirs, they're smart asses

Spoken like one of the idiots at my school .

This is the kind of reasoning you must get over , since the same is always felt on opposing side . Each side usually feels equally impressed . To get you an Idea on what I mean , here is the inverse of your reasoning .

Why is it when an athiest states their opinion , its scientifically correct.

when a religious person states their's they are ignorant fanatics .

This kind of reasoning always has an inverse , so using it is pointless . I don't think your a smartass , and their is much more scientific proof of god being a possibility then you seem to know .

*looks at the age difference between herself and babyforest...sighs, and shakes her head*

Since when has age ever been indefinitaly tied to anything but age ?

[babyforrest]

Sera, I'm sorry I lashed out at you like that. It's just that I've been listening to what you've been saying throughout this post, and it just seems to me that you feel that you have all the answers about everything and it all comes from your very in depth knowledge of cells and biology. Cells can't give the answer to whether or not there is a God. You don't know everything, especially about religion. I don't. Nobody does. How boring would it be if it were possible for one person to know everything?

My second last post to you was an attempt for you to stop acting like you had the answers. It didn't work.

You asked me why my faith gives me a better outlook on life, and followed it up with a . That, to me was arrogent, and it pushed me over the edge. You are making fun of me. Don't. You're argument didn't make any sense to me before, and it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me now, but I am not making fun of you (except for that bit about you knowing everything).

I know that I am 20 and you are 18. I just pointed out that I don't feel that I know all there is to know about anything, and I never did.

Once again, I'm sorry. I did feel badly afterwards about what I said to you.

[TheLight]

Why is it when an athiest states their opinion , its scientifically correct.

when a religious person states their's they are ignorant fanatics .

This kind of reasoning always has an inverse , so using it is pointless . I don't think your a smartass , and their is much more scientific proof of god being a possibility then you seem to know.

I think Seraphina has a point here, she's making the effort to analyze the problem (almightyness for those who forgot) in a scientific manner and she's presenting interesting developements.

I can answer your question here: a scientific opinion doesn't need someone to have a revelation to be understood, just good sound logic. Now if you want to follow faith and just say that "He's almighty just because he is and we cannot understand why and that's normal", then that's not leading anywhere and not providing us anything to understand the concept of almightyness or God.

When you say that "this kind of reasoning has an inverse, so using it is pointless" is completely absurd. In a nutshell, since the inverse of reasoning logically is being illogical then using logical reasoning is pointless ?!?

Ok, may be you refer to faith and to the teaching of the bible. But who wrote the bible ? God ? No. Jesus ? No. People who knew Jesus, and even people who met people who knew Jesus (I'm refering to Paul here who brought some concepts back from the old testament and changed the original message, including the state of grace). So how can you be so sure that the original hasn't be twisted in the process ? Add to that that the bible was written a long time after Jesus was dead and that it was translated by many people that don't even agree on the meaning of original text and you'll get the picture.

By the way, what scientific proof of the existence of God are you refering to ?

To follow...

TheLight

[Seraphina]

When you say that "this kind of reasoning has an inverse, so using it is pointless" is completely absurd. In a nutshell, since the inverse of reasoning logically is being illogical then using logical reasoning is pointless ?!?

When you say that "this kind of reasoning has an inverse, so using it is pointless" is completely absurd. In a nutshell, since the inverse of reasoning logically is being illogical then using logical reasoning is pointless ?!?

Heh...that's very much what I was thinking...if you hadn't said it, I would have...at least there's at least one other person around here on the same side of the fence as me

My second last post to you was an attempt for you to stop acting like you had the answers. It didn't work.

Tell me...does your frustration simply come from the fact that I have had a logical answer to everything so far, and you're running out of questions? I don't claim to be all knowing, and I don't claim for a moment that I'm definately correct...but I do find it odd that I'm able to counter every arguement you present, and am immedietly attacked for it when you can't do the same to mine (note: calling me stupid is not a good counter point ) That's not how a debate works.

How boring would it be if it were possible for one person to know everything?

And how could we possibly move forward as a culture if we spend 10'000 years questioning nothing?