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Jjbreen

PSI -vs- SCI

524 posts in this topic

Sci –vs- Psi

This is getting to be sad, really sad. I am more and more convinced that the “believer” has little to no understanding of basic SCI (science) at all!

I am convinced that the ‘believer’ has no concept of ‘critical thinking skills’ and ‘analytical thinking skills’, let alone the basic understanding of the very real SCI (science) of what you are actually doing!!

The history books are full of people that understood science and fooled the people into thinking “magic” in many and various forms was ‘a foot’. But it was nothing more than playing on people’s lack of understanding of SCI.

Today we see the same thing happening again – people are being ‘sold’ a bill of goods. People are making claims of PSI when in all reality it is SCI (science).

In the case of the “psi-wheel”: We skeptics are the ‘evil ones’ – why? Because we see SCI and NOT Psi at work! We even point out the SCI that is work and we are told, “you won’t believe anything, even if it’s right in front of your noses!!” Actually it’s more; “you do not see what is right in front of your noses!” You do not see the SCI that is there. You are an ignorant “Mystic Illusionist”. You are trying to “pull off an illusion”, but do not even understand the SCI that is behind it. We skeptics do. The statement would be more accurately stated,” Why won’t you do some simple homework and/or research and understand the scientific dynamics that are at play??”

You should be asking yourself – “What scientific law or physical law is at play??” Then understand that you HAVE to remove those dynamics from being there. Until you remove the obvious laws of science – you are not proving PSI, you are proving SCI.

Let me use one of the “believers” own desperate attempts at proving PSI when in all actuality you proved and showed clearly SCI.

Now I really want you to watch this again. I dare you to!

I want you to notice the sequence of when he is brings in the white paper wall.

Notice that he has it too close to the pin-wheel. Notice that while he is angling it away from the pin-wheel, it is ALREADY spinning!!

No Psi is involved, non at all – he has not started that part!

But the pin-wheel is already starting to spinning!!

WHY? SCI not Psi, that is why!

Now you have to ask why?? Answer: T H E R M O D Y N A M I C S.

Plus, because of the angle of the paper wider towards the camera and narrow away from it, it has created the direction the air flow will move: COUNTER CLOCK WISE; which by the way is EXACTLY the direction the pin wheel moves.

He couldn’t make it move clock wise if he tried, because SCI laws were already strongly in play. (Actually with that set up, if he had gotten it to move clock-wise, it would have been impressive!!

Why?

Because he would be moving against the laws of SCI already set into motion. He must leave it exactly as he has it and then move the pin-wheel CLOCK WISE. That would have some heads scratching, seriously big time. He was opposing the laws that were clearly set into place. But the laws of SCI were already at play – unless he changed the angle of the paper wall to what? (To make it move clock wise.) The answer is simple, really!!

Now for those who choose to “prove PSI” with the enclosed jar. Back in Jr. High we did science experiments with jars to produce certain weather conditions. We actually used PIN-WHEELS in this so show how AIR MOVEMENT works! But you know what; I am beginning to think that they simply do not teach this anymore, which is really very sad! So I will insist that you understand these dynamics BEFORE you start to use this clear SCI to prove your PSI.

When you believers are going to show what you want to believe and accept as PSI, you better be sure it’s not SCI! For it’s NOT the “skeptics” fault if you are not accepted. It’s yours, for not taking the time to understand the SCI dynamics that are at play in what you do! You honestly look like the idiot, because you do not see what is going on in front of your nose! You do not see nor do I believe you wish to see and understand the reality of the SCI that seriously and really at play.

If you want to prove PSI to us – you must clearly violate the laws of SCI that are in place. Nothing less can be done. You also must present what you’ve set into place. In the example of above.

“I have set the white wall so that the pin-wheel is forced to move counter clock-wise. Make sure the pin-wheel is moving freely by SCI in a clear counter clock-wise motion. Then you use PSI to move it clock-wise! But you cannot use your hands. Can you tell me why?? There is a very clear SCI reason why your hands cannot be in play. WHY??

So anyone practicing “PSI” has to have and must have at least a good working understanding of SCI.

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Jj, with all due respect, this post is exactly the same kind of pontification you are railing against in the other threads. You've spent all this time demanding, yes demanding, proof and haven't been given anything that suits you. You have been given several responses of "look for yourself," or "try it for yourself." Now here you are making the same declaration from the other side of the fence. "The truth is out there, look for yourself." I am now holding you to the same standard you hold the believers to. If you have this said proof of how the "Psi-wheel" works, end the debate once and for all by showing it.

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Jj, with all due respect, this post is exactly the same kind of pontification you are railing against in the other threads. You've spent all this time demanding, yes demanding, proof and haven't been given anything that suits you. You have been given several responses of "look for yourself," or "try it for yourself." Now here you are making the same declaration from the other side of the fence. "The truth is out there, look for yourself." I am now holding you to the same standard you hold the believers to. If you have this said proof of how the "Psi-wheel" works, end the debate once and for all by showing it.

Actually - it's not the same - it's talking very specifically about science and the need to understand Science.

But --> I did: Using the believers own "youtube "proof" -

Let me use one of the “believers” own desperate attempts at proving PSI when in all actuality you proved and showed clearly SCI.

Now I really want you to watch this again. I dare you to!

I want you to notice the sequence of when he is brings in the white paper wall.

Notice that he has it too close to the pin-wheel. Notice that while he is angling it away from the pin-wheel, it is ALREADY spinning!!

No Psi is involved, non at all – he has not started that part!

But the pin-wheel is already starting to spinning!!

WHY? SCI not Psi, that is why!

I am not sure how more clear I can be?? I did provide proof, example and what not and actual explination of what and why with the angle of the paper and why the pin-wheel is spinning counter clock wise. The focus being Science.

But - Moderators - if this is the same as 99.5% - I submit to your call on this and feel free to delete it if you see the need.

Respectfully - Jj

Edited by Jjbreen

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What I am saying Jj (though I admit not very elegantly) is that perhaps you should offer the benefit of your knowledge and explain the proof in more detail. Tell them why it works that way. Remember not all the believers have the same degree of education as you. Sorry but what you offered in that thread was almost as empty as some of the proof that the believers offered you. If you think people need to learn something, teach them man. It's what elders are for. :)

You've tried to get people to look at things with an inquisitive mind and that itself is commendable, but it seems that you are getting a little too aggravated with the subject.

Apologies if my tone was too aggressive before.

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He has explained in laymans terms before. It's so so simple. The different in heat between your hands and the air in between causes a small air current which easily moves the thin piece of paper. We don't need to try for ourselves because what they are doing is not being faked, they're using thermodynamics and perceiving it as psi because they don't know any better. Jj has offered the correct explanation for what is happening and yet still people ignore these facts and are convinced that what they're doing is supernatural.

PS rev r you joined this forum on my birthday!

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Dam. I shouldn't have posted that clip. Oh well.

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Sci –vs- Psi

This is getting to be sad, really sad. I am more and more convinced that the “believer” has little to no understanding of basic SCI (science) at all!

I am convinced that the ‘believer’ has no concept of ‘critical thinking skills’ and ‘analytical thinking skills’, let alone the basic understanding of the very real SCI (science) of what you are actually doing!!

The history books are full of people that understood science and fooled the people into thinking “magic” in many and various forms was ‘a foot’. But it was nothing more than playing on people’s lack of understanding of SCI.

Today we see the same thing happening again – people are being ‘sold’ a bill of goods. People are making claims of PSI when in all reality it is SCI (science).

In the case of the “psi-wheel”: We skeptics are the ‘evil ones’ – why? Because we see SCI and NOT Psi at work! We even point out the SCI that is work and we are told, “you won’t believe anything, even if it’s right in front of your noses!!” Actually it’s more; “you do not see what is right in front of your noses!” You do not see the SCI that is there. You are an ignorant “Mystic Illusionist”. You are trying to “pull off an illusion”, but do not even understand the SCI that is behind it. We skeptics do. The statement would be more accurately stated,” Why won’t you do some simple homework and/or research and understand the scientific dynamics that are at play??”

You should be asking yourself – “What scientific law or physical law is at play??” Then understand that you HAVE to remove those dynamics from being there. Until you remove the obvious laws of science – you are not proving PSI, you are proving SCI.

Let me use one of the “believers” own desperate attempts at proving PSI when in all actuality you proved and showed clearly SCI.

Now I really want you to watch this again. I dare you to!

I want you to notice the sequence of when he is brings in the white paper wall.

Notice that he has it too close to the pin-wheel. Notice that while he is angling it away from the pin-wheel, it is ALREADY spinning!!

No Psi is involved, non at all – he has not started that part!

But the pin-wheel is already starting to spinning!!

WHY? SCI not Psi, that is why!

Now you have to ask why?? Answer: T H E R M O D Y N A M I C S.

Plus, because of the angle of the paper wider towards the camera and narrow away from it, it has created the direction the air flow will move: COUNTER CLOCK WISE; which by the way is EXACTLY the direction the pin wheel moves.

He couldn’t make it move clock wise if he tried, because SCI laws were already strongly in play. (Actually with that set up, if he had gotten it to move clock-wise, it would have been impressive!!

Why?

Because he would be moving against the laws of SCI already set into motion. He must leave it exactly as he has it and then move the pin-wheel CLOCK WISE. That would have some heads scratching, seriously big time. He was opposing the laws that were clearly set into place. But the laws of SCI were already at play – unless he changed the angle of the paper wall to what? (To make it move clock wise.) The answer is simple, really!!

Now for those who choose to “prove PSI” with the enclosed jar. Back in Jr. High we did science experiments with jars to produce certain weather conditions. We actually used PIN-WHEELS in this so show how AIR MOVEMENT works! But you know what; I am beginning to think that they simply do not teach this anymore, which is really very sad! So I will insist that you understand these dynamics BEFORE you start to use this clear SCI to prove your PSI.

When you believers are going to show what you want to believe and accept as PSI, you better be sure it’s not SCI! For it’s NOT the “skeptics” fault if you are not accepted. It’s yours, for not taking the time to understand the SCI dynamics that are at play in what you do! You honestly look like the idiot, because you do not see what is going on in front of your nose! You do not see nor do I believe you wish to see and understand the reality of the SCI that seriously and really at play.

If you want to prove PSI to us – you must clearly violate the laws of SCI that are in place. Nothing less can be done. You also must present what you’ve set into place. In the example of above.

“I have set the white wall so that the pin-wheel is forced to move counter clock-wise. Make sure the pin-wheel is moving freely by SCI in a clear counter clock-wise motion. Then you use PSI to move it clock-wise! But you cannot use your hands. Can you tell me why?? There is a very clear SCI reason why your hands cannot be in play. WHY??

So anyone practicing “PSI” has to have and must have at least a good working understanding of SCI.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA YOU REALLY THINK PSI CANNOT EXIST IN SCIENCE???!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HOW UNSCIENTIFIC!!!!!!!! INSANE!! YOU MIGHT AS WELL SAY THE WORLD IS FLAT. I won't talk about psi I'll state some quantum physics facts from the book "What the bleep do we know" read if you dare and then say if psi isn;t possible.

I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics.---Richard Feynman, awarded the 1965 Nobel Prize for the development of quantum eclectrodynamics

Those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it.----- Niels Bohr, awarded the 1922 Nobel Prize for work on the structure of the atom

No perceptual judgement can ever be made with complete certainty.---Werner Heisenberg, Nobel Laurete in physics(not in what the beel do we know book)

Fact or Fiction?

What quantum theory has reaveled is so mind-boggling that it sounds more like science fiction: Particles may be in two or more places at once.(A very recent experiment found that one particle could be in up to 3,000 places!) The same "object" may appear to be a particle, locatable in one place, or a wave, spread out over space and time.

Einstien said that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, but quantum physics has demonstrated that subatomic particles seem to communicate instantaneously over any expanse of space.

insane!!

Let's start with something familiar to most of us. One of the first cracks in the structure of Newtonian physics was the discovery that atoms, the supposedly solid building blocks of the physical universe, were mostly made up of empty space. How empty? If we use a basketball to represent the nucleus of a hydrogen atom, the electron circling it would be about twenty miles away--and everything inbetween would be empty. So as you look around, remember that what really is there are tiny, tiny points of matter surrounded by nothing.

Well, not really. That supposed "emptiness" is not empty at all: It contains enormous quantities of subtle, powerful energy. We know energy increases as we go subtler levels of matter(nuvlear energy being a million times more powerful than chemical energy, for example). Scientists now say there is more energy in one cubic centimeter of empty space (about the size of a marble) than in all the matter of the known universe. Although scientists have not been able to measure this directly, they have seen the effects of this sea of immense energy.

Not only is there "space" between particles, but as scientists probed more deeply into the atom, they found that the sub-atomic particles(the constituents of the atoms) are not solid either. And they appear to have a dual nature. Depending on how we look at them, they can behave as either particles or as waves. Particles can be dexribed as separate, solid objects with specific locations in space. Waves, on the other hand, are not localized or solid, but are spread out, like sound waves or the waves in water.

As waves, electrons or photon(particles of light) have no precise location, but exist as "probability fields." As particles, the probability field "collapses" into a solid object locatable in a specific place and time.

Amazingly, what seems to make the difference is observation or measurement. Unmeasured, unobserved electrons behave as waves. As soon as we subject them to observation in an experiment, they "collapse" into a particle and can be located.

How can something be both a solid particle and a soft, flowing wave? Perhaps the paradox can be resolved by recalling what we said above: Particles behave as a wave or particle. But the "wave" is just an analogy. Just like "particle" is an analogy from our everyday world. This wave notion was solidified into quantum theory by Erwin Schrodinger, who with his famous "wave equation," summed up mathematically the wave-like probabilities of the particle before observation.

In an attempt to make it clear they don't really know what the BLEEP they're dealing with, but whatever it is they've never seen anything like it, some physicists have decided to call this phenomenon a "wavicle."

In studying the atom, scientists found that when electrons move from orbit to orbit around the nucleus, they do not move through space the way ordinary objects move--rather, they move instantaneously. That is, they disappear from one place , one place, one orbit, and appear in another. This was called the quantum jump. As if that didn't break enough rules of commonsense reality, they also discovered that they could not determine exactly where the electrons would appear, or when they would jump. The best they could do was formulate the prbabilities(Scrodinger's wave equation) of an electron's new location. "Reality as we experience it is constantly being created freshly at every moment, out of this pool pf possibilites," says Dr. Satinover, "but the real mysteriousness in this is that out of that pool of possibilities, which one is the one that is gonna happen is determined by nothing that's part of the physical universe. There is no process that makes that happen."

Or as is often stated: Qunatum events are the only truly random events in the universe.

When a subatomic "object" is in its wave state, what it will become when it is observed and becomes located is uncertain. It exists in a state of multiple possibilities. This state is called superposition. It is like flipping a coin in a dark room. Mathematically , evenafter it has l;anded on the table, we can't say whether it is heads or tails. As soon as the light goes on, we "collapse" the superposition, and the coin becomes heads or tails. Like turningon a light, measurement of the wave collapses the quantum mechanical superposition, and the particle appears in a measurable, "classical" state. Page 56-58 What the bleep do we know, chapter quantum physics.

Now, science hasn;t even got a full grip on the physical world, how can it even begin to imagine that it can say without doubt that PSI has no place in the universe??? The world is so illogical and illusory how can we say anything about the universe in an absolute sense???

I believe whether scientific or not EVERYTHING exists and can happen.There is no possibility no matter how "out there" it sounds that doesn't exist, PSI and SCIENCE are interconnected and one! Not separate like descartes would say. The observer has an affect on the observed and vice versa, they are one and the same and there apparent separateness is only apparent, that is to say an illusion.

I'll leave you with a cool quote: Deep in the human unconsciousness is a pervasive need for a universe that makes sense. But the universe is always one step beyond logic.---Muad'Dib

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;) Edited by brave_new_world

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as a uote from someone wel known that i cant think of right now "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic " this is just that in action in that the belivers dont understand the technology of thermodynamics so they think is magic .and its also like the esp,telekenisis and remote vuieing the majourity of the population of the world dosent understand the science of the mind over matter thing so they think its magic sorry for ranting a bit .

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BMW -

Ok interesting rant that had nothing to do with what I posted as the topic.

I have stated so many times:

Do I accept Psi as valid and real - YES

... .examples that I have sighted: Remote Viewing. Telepathy between twins. (An excellent web-link was sighted in 99.5% failure...) There are other psi abilities that I have agreed is valid also.

But - what this focal point is: Pin Wheel proving "Psi" - I am specifically showing a sight (YouTube) that a "believer" posted to show "Psi" at work. I used that to actually show, explain and prove that it was NOT "Psi" but Science. Even in post #1 pointed out exactly what to look for - that the pin-wheel was already moving counter clock wise before he even started the Psi Demo. He was moving the white paper wall. I even pointed out why the pin-wheel was moving counter clock wise. The specific location of how the white wall was placed.

Please can we stick to the specific topic?? Is that really too much to ask for?

My point of this thread is to help understanding in that us "Evil Skeptics" have a reason for some of our doubts and questions. Real science is at play here. Laws that already have been well established, understood and proven so many times that this was at one point even taught in Jr High Science classes.

Thanks - Jj

PS - Unlike the 99.5% thread - I am going to push that this thread will stay on focus. I would ask that that be respected please... Thanks. :yes:

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Brave new world quit trying to overwhelm people with big words and concepts they won't understand. You don't look smart. It's irrelevant. Your quotes don't impress anybody.

Of course science hasn't fully understood the physical world. That's why scientists still have jobs. That's why they're still researching and experimenting to gain more knowledge. What's your reasoning for believing that psi is real? "Oh, science doesn't fully understand everything about everything, therefore psi must exist"

The world isn't illogical and illusory. Everything that can be explained has been explained by scienc, and everything that cannot be explained will be explained by science.

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The world isn't illogical and illusory. Everything that can be explained has been explained by scienc, and everything that cannot be explained will be explained by science.

You just made a big fool of yourself there.

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BNW & ssjtin

Please kindly take your difference to Private Message between yourself. Please - :yes:

I would like to keep this thread focued on the topic of post #1 - :tu:

Thanks again, Jj

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PSI vs SCI. It shows the reason why it is hard for you to believe. It should be PSI and SCI. Anyway, you can go ahead with your versus.

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Even if psi energy could'nt be isolated there would be something to measure. Look at gravity for example we know it exists because we can measure it even though we cannot detect the theoretical 'graviton' or graviton waves something holds us down on the planet and keeps us in orbit around the sun.

If psi existed there would be something we could measure or observe as in the case of gravity but there isn't. Lot's of people say it exists and they can utilize it to move objects. I however do not beleive they can nor do I beleive psi exists. See if it did someone would willingly step up to the plate and demonstrate in controlled conditions. Out of all the millions who say they can do this why hasn't anyone?

Science has already declared that such an energy cannot exist based on the simple fact that NO evidence outside the realm of 'faith' exists.

No perceptual judgement can ever be made with complete certainty.---Werner Heisenberg
I agree with this but what the comment above states is that there is always a possibility. Now there is a possibility you may walk through a wall but the real question is what are the chances. I am willing to bet the possibility is so slim I would'nt count on it happening.

What quantum theory has reaveled is so mind-boggling that it sounds more like science fiction: Particles may be in two or more places at once.(A very recent experiment found that one particle could be in up to 3,000 places!) The same "object" may appear to be a particle, locatable in one place, or a wave, spread out over space and time.

Einstien said that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, but quantum physics has demonstrated that subatomic particles seem to communicate instantaneously over any expanse of space.

This justifies psi how exactly? Just because something can be in 2 places at once or 3000 is not indicative nor evidence of psi.

Well, not really. That supposed "emptiness" is not empty at all: It contains enormous quantities of subtle, powerful energy. We know energy increases as we go subtler levels of matter(nuvlear energy being a million times more powerful than chemical energy, for example). Scientists now say there is more energy in one cubic centimeter of empty space (about the size of a marble) than in all the matter of the known universe. Although scientists have not been able to measure this directly, they have seen the effects of this sea of immense energy.
I won't argue again'st this does not explain psi powers either. While quantum physics is amazing using psi to bend a spoon is energy manipulation and the energy being transferred in such a process has never been observed, measured or documented.

Now, science hasn;t even got a full grip on the physical world, how can it even begin to imagine that it can say without doubt that PSI has no place in the universe??? The world is so illogical and illusory how can we say anything about the universe in an absolute sense???

Electricity travells through copper wire I can safely say this is an absolute. I am also absolutly sure that i typed this message. I say psi does not exist because outside the realm of beleif as stated earlier there is nothing to suggest it's existence.

I believe whether scientific or not EVERYTHING exists and can happen.There is no possibility no matter how "out there" it sounds that doesn't exist, PSI and SCIENCE are interconnected and one! Not separate like descartes would say. The observer has an affect on the observed and vice versa, they are one and the same and there apparent separateness is only apparent, that is to say an illusion.
Not everything we can think of exists and quantum physics clearly states that it doesn't. However what it does state is that a 'chance' always exists. Yes there is infact a chance that psi exists but again as I have stated above what is that chance? Psi and science is not interconnected and there is no evidence nor proof outside of video to suggest otherwise.

============

PSI vs SCI. It shows the reason why it is hard for you to believe. It should be PSI and SCI. Anyway, you can go ahead with your versus.

If your only arguing point is the title of the thread then you have already lost the debate...

============

As for what the skeptics say here I agree thermodynamics and energy transfer are not supernatural and completely explainable. I still have yet to see anything suggest otherwise when it comes to 'mind over matter'.

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If the psiwheel moves from thermaldynamics, and our hands are constantly giving off heat, why doesn't the psiwheel move constantly?

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Even if psi energy could'nt be isolated there would be something to measure. Look at gravity for example we know it exists because we can measure it even though we cannot detect the theoretical 'graviton' or graviton waves something holds us down on the planet and keeps us in orbit around the sun.

If psi existed there would be something we could measure or observe as in the case of gravity but there isn't. Lot's of people say it exists and they can utilize it to move objects. I however do not beleive they can nor do I beleive psi exists. See if it did someone would willingly step up to the plate and demonstrate in controlled conditions. Out of all the millions who say they can do this why hasn't anyone?

Science has already declared that such an energy cannot exist based on the simple fact that NO evidence outside the realm of 'faith' exists.

I agree with this but what the comment above states is that there is always a possibility. Now there is a possibility you may walk through a wall but the real question is what are the chances. I am willing to bet the possibility is so slim I would'nt count on it happening.

This justifies psi how exactly? Just because something can be in 2 places at once or 3000 is not indicative nor evidence of psi.

I won't argue again'st this does not explain psi powers either. While quantum physics is amazing using psi to bend a spoon is energy manipulation and the energy being transferred in such a process has never been observed, measured or documented.

Electricity travells through copper wire I can safely say this is an absolute. I am also absolutly sure that i typed this message. I say psi does not exist because outside the realm of beleif as stated earlier there is nothing to suggest it's existence.

Not everything we can think of exists and quantum physics clearly states that it doesn't. However what it does state is that a 'chance' always exists. Yes there is infact a chance that psi exists but again as I have stated above what is that chance? Psi and science is not interconnected and there is no evidence nor proof outside of video to suggest otherwise.

============

If your only arguing point is the title of the thread then you have already lost the debate...

============

As for what the skeptics say here I agree thermodynamics and energy transfer are not supernatural and completely explainable. I still have yet to see anything suggest otherwise when it comes to 'mind over matter'.

Well if a particle can be in up to 3000 thousand places at once, then maybe our mind can can be viewing things in more places at once other than in our inmediate viewing. No evidence???

I'll write some pieces of information from a scientific book called "The holographic universe which will hopefully give some people here some info of the crazy world scientists and religious leaders want to make boring with their packaged concepts. Michael Talbot(God Allah bless) is a quantum physicist. So at least the book was written by someone scientific.

Miracles happen, not in opposition to Nature, but in opposition to what we know of Nature.----St. Augustine(christian mystic)

In one series of experiments Jahn and his associate, clinical psychologist Brenda Dunne, employed a device called a random event generator, or REG. By relyingon an unpredictable natural process such as radioactive decay, a REG is able to produce a string like this: 1,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,1,2,1. In other words, a REG is a kind of automatic coinflipper capable of producing an enormous number of coin flips in a very short time. As everyone knows, if you flip a perfectly weighted coin 1,000 times, the odds are you will get a 50/50 split between heads and tails. In reality, out of any 1,000 such flips, the split may vary a little in one direction or the other, but the greater the number of flips, the closer to 50/50 the split will become.

What Jahn and Dunne did was have volunteers sit in front of the REG and concentrate on having it produce an abnormally large numer of either headsor tails. Over the course of literally hundreds of thousands of trials they discovered that, through concentration alone, the volunteers did indeed have a small but statistically significant effect on the REG's output. They discovered two other things as well. The ability to produce PK effects was not limited to a few gifted individuals but was present in the majority of volunteers they tested. This suggests that most of us possess some degree of PK. They also discovered that different volunteers produced different and consistently distinctive results, results that were so idiosyncratic that Jahn and Dunne started calling them "signitures." Page 123

mass psychokinesis in eighteenth-century franceAWESOME READ THIS ONE!!!!!!!!!

Such incidents notwithstanding, one of the most astounding manifestations of psychokinesis, and one of the most remarkable displays of miraculous events ever recorded, took place in Paris in the first half of the eighteenth century. The events centered around a puritanical sect of Dutch-influenced Catholics known as the Jansenists, and were precipitated by the death of a saintly and revered Jansenist deacon named Francois de Paris. Although few people living today have even heard of the Jansenist miracles, they were one of the most talked about events in Europe for the better part of a century.

To understand fully the Jansenist miracles, it is necessary to know a little about the historical events that preceded Francois de Paris's death. Jansenism was founded in the early seventeenth century, and from the start it was at odds with both the Roman Catholic Church and French monarchy. Many of the beliefs diverged sharply with standard chrch doctrine but it was a popular movement and quickly gained followers among the French populace. Most damning of all, it was viewed by both papacy and King Louis XV, a devout Catholic, as Protestantism only masquerading as Catholicism. As a result, both the chruch and the king were constantly maneuvering to undermine the movement's power. One obstacle to these manueverings, and one of the factors that contributed to the movement's popularity, was that Jansenist leaders seemed especiallyskilled at performing miraculous healings. Nonetheless, the church and the monarchy persevered, causing fierce debates to rage throughout France. It was on May 1,1727, at the height of this power struggle, that Francois de Paris deid and was interred in the parish cemetery of Saint-Medard, Paris.

Because of the abbe's saintly reputation, worshipers began to gather at his tomb, and from the beginning a host of miraculous healings were reported. The ailments thus cured included cancerous tumors, paralysis, deafness, arthritis, rheumatism, ulcerous sores, persistent fevers, prolonged hemorrhaging, and blindness. But this was not all. The mourners also started to experience strange involuntary spasms or convulsions and to undergo the most amazing contortions of thier limbs. These seizures quickly proved contagious, spreading like a brush fire until the streets were packed with men, women, and children, all twisting and writhing as if caught up in a surreal enchantment.

It was while they were in this fitful and trancelike state that the "convulsionaires," as they have come to be called, displayed the most phenomenal of their talents. One was the ability to endure without harm an almost unimaginable variety of physical tortures. These included severe beatings, blows from both heavy and sharp objects, and strangulation---all with no sign of injury, or even the slightest trace of wounds or bruises.

What makes these miraculous events so unique is that they were witnessed by literally thousands of observers. The frenzied gatherings around Abbe Paris's tomb were by no means short-lived. The cemetery and the streets surrounding it were crowded day and night for years, and even two decades later miracles were stills being reported(to give some idea of the enormity of the phenomena, in 1733 it was noted in the public records that over 3,000 volunteers were needed simply to assist the convulsionaires and make sure, for example, that the female participants did not become immodestly exposed during their seizsures).

As a result, the supernomral abilities of the convulsionaries became an international cause celebre, and thousands flocked to see them, including individuals from all social strata and officials from every educational, religious, and governmental institution imaginable; numerous accounts, both official and unofficial , of the miracles witnessed are recorded in the documents of the time. Moreover, many of the witnesses, such as the investigators from the Roman Catholic Church , had a vested interest in refuting the Jansenist miracles, but they still went away confirming them( the Roman Catholic Church later remedied this embarrassing state of affairs by conceding that the miracles existed but were the work of the devil, hence proving that the Jansenists were depraved).

One investigator, a member of the Paris Parliament named Louis- Basile Carre de Montgeron, witnesses enough miracles to fill four four thick volumes on the subject, which he published in 1737 under the title La Verite des Miracles. In the work he provides numerous examples of the convulsionaire's apparent invulnerability to torture. In one instance a twenty-year-old convulsionarie named Jeanne Maulet leaned against a stone wall while a volunteer from the crowd, "a very strong man," delivered one hundred blows to her stomach with a thirty-pound hammer(the convulsionaires themselves asked to be tortured because they said it relieved the excrutiating pain of the convulsions). To test the force of the blows, Montgeron himself then took the hammer and tried it on the stone wall against which the girl had leaned. HE wrote, "At the twenty-fifth blow the stone upon which I struck, which had been shaken by the preceding efforts, suddenly became loose and fell on the other side of the wall, making an aperture more than half a foot in size."

Montgeron describes another instance in which a convulsionaire bent back into an arc so that her lower back was supported by "the sharp point of a peg." She then asked that a fifty-pound stone attached to a rope be hoisted to "an extreme height" and allowed to fall with all its weight on her stomach. The stone was hoisted up and allowed to fall with all its weight again and again, but the woman seemed completely unaffected by it. She effortlessly maintained her awkward position, suffered no pain or harm, and walked away from the ordeal without even so much as a mark on the flesh of her back. Montgeron noted that while the ordeal was in progress she kept crying out, "Strike harder, harder!"

In fact, it appears that othing could harm the convulsionaires. They could not be hurt by the blows of metal rods, chains, or timbers. The strongest men could not choke them. Some were crufcified and afterward showed no trace of wounds. Most mind boggling of all, they could not even be cut or punctured with knives, swords, or hatchets! Montgeron cites an incident in which the sharpened point of an iron drill was held against the stomach of a convulsionaire and then pounded so violently with a hammer that it seemed "as if it would penetrate through the spine and rupture all the entrails." But it didn;t, and the convulsionaire maintained an "expression of perfect rapture," crying "Oh, that does me good! Courage, brother;strike twice as hard, if you can!"

Invulnerability was not the only talent the Jansenists displayed during their seizures. Some became clairvoyant and were able to "discern hidden things. Others could read even when their eyes were closed and tightly bandaged, and instances of lveitation were reported. One of the levitators, an abbe named Bescherand from Montpellier, was so "forcibly lifted into the air" during his convulsion that even when the witnesses tried to hold him down they could not succeed in keeping him from rising off the ground.

Although we have all but forgotten about the Jansenist miracles today, they were far from ignored by the intelligtsia of the time. The niece of the mathematician and philosopher Pascal succeeded in having a severe ulcer in her eye vanish within hours as a result of a Jansenist miracle. When King Louis XV tried unsuccessfully to stop the convulsionaires by closing the cemetery of saint-Medard, Voltaire quipped, "God was forbidden, by order of the King, to work any miracles there." And in his Pilosophical Essays the Scottish philosopher David Hume wrote, "There surely never was so great a number f miracles ascribed to one person as those which were lately said to have been wrought in France upon the tomb of Abbe Paris. Many of the miracles were immediately proved upon the spot, before judges of unquestioned credit and distinction, in a learned age, and on the most eminent theatre that is now in the world."

How are we to explain the miracles produced by the convulsionaires?? Although Bohm is willing to consider the possibility of PK and other paranormal phenomena, he prefers not to speculate about specific events such as the supernormal abilities of the Jansenists. But once again, if we take the testimony of so many witnesses seriously, unless we are willing to concede that God favoured the Jansenist Catholics over the Roman, PK seems the likely explaination.

That some kind of psychic fucntioning was involved is strongly suggested by the appearance of other psychic abilities, such as clairvoyance, during the seizures. In addition, we have already looked at a number of examples where intense faith and hysteria have triggered the deeper forces of the mind, and thesetoo were present in ample portions. In fact, instead of being produced by one individual, the psychokinetic effects may have been created by the combined fervor and belief of all those present, and this might account for the unusual vigor of the manifestations. This idea is not new. In the 1920s the great Harvard psycologist William McDougall also suggested that religious miracles might be the result of the collective psychic powers of large numbers of worshipers.

PK would explain many of the convulsionaire's seeming invulnerabilities. In the case of Jeanne Maulet it could be argued that she unconsciously used PK to block the effect of the hammer blows. If the chains, timbers, and knives, and stop them in their tracks at the prcise moment of impact, it would also explain why these objects left no marks or bruises. Similarly, when individuals tried to strangle the Jansensists, perhaps their hands were held in place by PK and although they thought they were squeezing flesh, they were really only flexing in the nothingness.pAGES 128-132

You think you can say something in an absolute sense???? You say you typed something in an absolute sense?? Is the computer solid or empty???? When you are not observingit can you say with certainty that it isn't a wave?????

http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/cache/papers/c...orrelations.pdf

That link is scientific evidence of Jahn and Dunne's studies.

Has anyone ever "proved" gravity? Newton said gravity is the force of attraction between masses. Eistien said mass curves space/time geometry, which then causes masses to to come together. But they can't prove what it is. At best the mathematical description can be seen to have no evidence to the contrary.page 104, What the bleep do we know

Edited by brave_new_world

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brave,

You might be better advised just posting a link to the thread (with a little explanation) rather than repost the whole of the OP from that thread.

Kazuma,

It's not the heat given off from our hands that directly moves the psi-wheel. This heat causes the air to warm, generating thermal currents of air (very weak but they are there). Depending on the direction and force of the air current, and the weight of the paper and how free it is to revolve, the paper will move.

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I still have yet to see anything suggest otherwise when it comes to 'mind over matter'.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA then you have been out much in the scientific community.

Check these sights out on Masaru Emoto. He says that thoughts and intentions and non-physical forces can directly influence water. "This would be considered mind over matter"

Here are some sights with pictures and scientific explainations and evidence etc etc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto

http://www.wellnessgoods.com/messages.asp

http://www.hado.net/water_crystals.html

http://www.unitedearth.com.au/watercrystals.html

It is like there is a psychic connection between the water and our thoughts.

Any thoughts???

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Why do you keep quoting what other people say and then adding "HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH", like what they say is so unbelievably ignorant that you can't stop yourself from laughing?

Now to this automatic coin flipper example you keep throwing at us. Tell me this....are the volunteers thinking "heads please", or, assuming the random number generator is based on radioactive decay as you suggest, are they actually concentrating on manipulating this process as to produce the result of heads?

I assume, because the volunteers are random people who don't understand radioactive processes, all they would be thinking is "come on REG, give me some more heads". If so, then the whole experiment doesn't support your cause at all. How can you attribute people concentrating on "heads" to affecting the REG which is actually dependent on what you suggested is radioactive decay? Did the people conducting this experiment conclude that when lots of people concentrated on heads, the natural process of radioactive decay decides to obey this order and manipulates itself into following a rate that gives more heads? All this experiment shows is how much people desperately grasp on to anything even slightly out of the ordinary, like a random event occuring more then average, and attribute it to causes like "PSI".

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Also this I thought was relevent to the topic.

What if the mind and matter are not split? What if there are observable feedback loops between the two? It's the 21st century, yet mainstream science still refuses to look at this. Dr.Dean Radin, head scientist at the institute of Noetic Sciences, has been pursuing the investigation of psychic phenomena with strict adherence to the scientific method. Even so, he still meets restiance within the mainstream scientific community.

As Dr. Radin says,

They (mainstream scientists) have personal, private beliefs that have developed because of their experience, but they don't talk about it in public because in public, at least within the academic world, you're not supposed to talk about it. And this is one of the few areas in academia where this taboo is not only strong, but has persisted for at least a century. I know many, many academic colleagues....distinguished in their fields--in psychology, cognitive neuroscience, basic nerouscience, physics....who privately are very interested in...psychic phenomenon. Some of them are getting successful results in their experiments. Well why arn't we hearing about it? Because culture in the academic world says you cannot talk about it. So wer're living in the parable of the emperor's new clothes. I mean, even at this point the taboo is so strong you're not even supposed to talk about the taboo. It's like a highly secret government project where the fact of the existence of the project is secret. Well, the taboo is secret; no one's supposed to talk about it. Once the taboo is addressed, that's the first stage in making it disolve, and at that point, you will find an enormous amount of studying these things in mainstream science.

ANY THOUGHTS?

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Why do you keep quoting what other people say and then adding "HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH", like what they say is so unbelievably ignorant that you can't stop yourself from laughing?

Now to this automatic coin flipper example you keep throwing at us. Tell me this....are the volunteers thinking "heads please", or, assuming the random number generator is based on radioactive decay as you suggest, are they actually concentrating on manipulating this process as to produce the result of heads?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA They are consciously concentrating on "

heads please" and while doing this are unconsciously/subconsciously manipulating the process as to produce heads. Kind of obvious isn;t it????

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA They are consciously concentrating on "

heads please" and while doing this are unconsciously/subconsciously manipulating the process as to produce heads. Kind of obvious isn;t it????

No not really obvious at all. So you want us to believe that these participants are unconsciously/subconsciously manipulating a process that they have no idea about to get a desired outcome? Nope...still not obvious.

PS That link just wants me to post a reply to this topic.

Edited by ssjtin

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From reading jjbreen's initial post I don't get the idea that he's saying PSI does not exist or even that he doesn't believe in it. His point seems to be that many examples of "PSI" are no such thing, they are simply examples of either the proponents ignorance of SCI or an outright attempt to take advantage of the observers lack of understanding of SCI principles.

So, he's not asking you to prove PSI, brave, he's asking that both observers and proponents insure that all SCI principles have been taken into consideration before making a claim of PSI evidence.

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