PSI -vs- SCI

[brave_new_world]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto

http://www.wellnessgoods.com/messages.asp

http://www.hado.net/water_crystals.html

http://www.unitedearth.com.au/watercrystals.html

Direct scientific prrof of mind over matter ssjtin. But you probably wont read it because it may crush your preconcieved belief on reality. Hey Quantum physics is showing how illogical the universe is and you still think that old school newtonian/descartes science has the final say??? It makes me laugh, but just for you ssjtin I didn;t put all the "HAHAHAS" up this time.

[Jjbreen]

Brave new World:

What part of and I quote:

BNW & ssjtn - The topic of this thread has NOTHING to do with the RNG - the process there is still open to interpretation of the "evidence".

The topic of this thread is the science of Pin wheels aka "Psi Wheels".

(I'm tired of people taking tangents to avoid the focus of this topic.)

If BNW wants to start a thread on RNG - hey go for it. thumbsup.gif

But I would like us to please stay on topic of this thread - Thank you.... original.gif[

was not understood??

Please honor my simple request - and - go start your own thread on RNG. Thanks!

sst - please drop it too - thanks .... Jj

[Silentom]

Yes an RNG deserves it's own thread.

And for those of you catching up on this subject here is an understanding on RNG - A random number generator is a computational or physical device designed to generate a sequence of numbers or symbols that lack any pattern, i.e. appear random. Computer-based systems for random number generation are widely used, but often fall short of this goal, though they may meet some statistical tests for randomness intended to ensure that they do not have any easily discernible patterns. Methods for generating random results have existed since ancient times, including dice, coin flipping, the shuffling of playing cards, the use of yarrow stalks in the I Ching, and many other techniques.

Understand that it does not belong in this thread.

tom

[brave_new_world]

Yes an RNG deserves it's own thread.

And for those of you catching up on this subject here is an understanding on RNG - A random number generator is a computational or physical device designed to generate a sequence of numbers or symbols that lack any pattern, i.e. appear random. Computer-based systems for random number generation are widely used, but often fall short of this goal, though they may meet some statistical tests for randomness intended to ensure that they do not have any easily discernible patterns. Methods for generating random results have existed since ancient times, including dice, coin flipping, the shuffling of playing cards, the use of yarrow stalks in the I Ching, and many other techniques.

Understand that it does not belong in this thread.

tom

Awesome man!

[rev r]

He has explained in laymans terms before. It's so so simple. The different in heat between your hands and the air in between causes a small air current which easily moves the thin piece of paper. We don't need to try for ourselves because what they are doing is not being faked, they're using thermodynamics and perceiving it as psi because they don't know any better. Jj has offered the correct explanation for what is happening and yet still people ignore these facts and are convinced that what they're doing is supernatural.

PS rev r you joined this forum on my birthday!

Ah.

Jj again I apologize. I don't read all the psi-wheel threads (I wonder why). Good on you.

This "I have special powers," bit has tweaked my curiosity. I suppose a good portion of these people dislike the thought of a mundane existence. Disillusioned people turning to the illusion of power, searching for something that sets them apart from mere mortals. It's not sad really

And happy late birthday ssjtin.

[psychosis]

This "I have special powers," bit has tweaked my curiosity. I suppose a good portion of these people dislike the thought of a mundane existence. Disillusioned people turning to the illusion of power, searching for something that sets them apart from mere mortals. It's not sad really

please don't get me started on existentialism

the example of the pinwheel, just shows that people should first look for the simple (scientific) explanation before delving into alternative answers.

[ssjtin]

Yes I'm sorry for helping to derail this topic so I'll help get it back on track.

What Jj is trying to say is, when you come across something that you perceive as possibly psychic, don't automatically assume that because you can't explain it that it must be somethin supernatural. Research the scientific background behind this occurance, and then eliminate possible explanations before suggesting it as psychic ---- thus using sci to "prove" psi.

[rev r]

It's solid advice and I agree with it very much. One should always rule out the "normal" before deciding something is "paranormal."

[Jjbreen]

I posted this in one other thread - but on the per-chance that some here are not reading that thread -

I've gotten some more PM's asking some of the questions addressed. So I just answer them all together instead of seperate posts.

Ok, the problems with this, the hair drier, lighter, hot coffee - cold hands, hands to close to room temp, etc. -- Why won't the pin wheel spin??

You have to take into consideration the mass and volume of the jar and the temp outside the jar. What??

If you heat the jar up to quickly you exceed the hot/cold ratio. You do not allow time for the air to heat and cool at a speed that the hands provid.

You heat the jar hot too quickly and there is NO room for cool down and rewarm. Think about this. The hands on the other hand do not 'over heat' to quickly for the mass/volume of the jar thus the heat rise, cools down and drops back down. If you heat it up to hot the there is no > (greater than) cold temp at the top - the heat is stronger then the coldest point. The cool down will take much longer - because the temp of the room is simply not cold enough to cool the super heated air. (No I am not making this up, just think about the hold/cold ratio you are playing with.)

Example on the other side of the spectrum. Which will melt ice faster? Put an icecube in a 30 degree, 40 degree, 50 degree on up to 80 degrees. Which will melt faster? Why? Ok, no reverse that put heat say a 100 degree fry pan. PUT it in an 80 d, 70 deg, 60 deg, 50 deg on down to 30 degrees. Which room will cool it down faster? Why??

The heat provided has to allow for heat/cool down in a time fashion to create air flow.

That's why sometimes it works with hands and sometimes it does not. If your hands are equal to or just slightly warmer it will not spin. This really isn't "rocket science". Just the ice cube melt and fry pan, example. Not 'rocket science' just logic of understanding the dynamics of temps at play.

[Jjbreen]

Ah.

Jj again I apologize. I don't read all the psi-wheel threads (I wonder why). Good on you.

This "I have special powers," bit has tweaked my curiosity. I suppose a good portion of these people dislike the thought of a mundane existence. Disillusioned people turning to the illusion of power, searching for something that sets them apart from mere mortals. It's not sad really

And happy late birthday ssjtin.

No problem - actually I thought this thread would be blown away with 3 - 4 posts and die the 'death'. It actually took off better than I thought. I really thought bring in the Sci of Pin Wheel would be ignored because people didn't want their 'visions of grandure' dashed.

But as: psychosis - stated

he example of the pinwheel, just shows that people should first look for the simple (scientific) explanation before delving into alternative answers.

You really have to make sure you are not simply afirming the facts and reality of science first.

The thing that still suprises me is that people do not even bother to step back - try these 'feets' without doing "psi" consentration. Just do "it" while thinking of a music song or your favorit story - or even dare I say it, "what science is going on here??"

Hopefully - we will get this pin-wheel cleared up...

I still hold to my claim: Pin(Psi) wheels do NOT confirm Psi but just shows a century old law of science on air molecules and what happens to them when they heat up and cool down.

Jj -

[Jjbreen]

Ok -

I have found that 3rd Rock has a much broader definition of "PSI" then I do. Here is the quotes from another thread:

------

The following questions were asked 3rd Rock.

His answer is at the end of each:

Ok, let me ask some specific questions here, 3rd rock....

Is it "Psi" that keeps our hearts beating?? Yes

Is it "Psi" that keeps us breathing? Yes

Is it "Psi" that digests our food? Yes

Is it "Psi" that comunicates our fingers to type on the keyboard? Yes

Thanks - Jj

Then he added to his answer:

You might not know it but it is your PSI who is asking these questions.

So ok, I see now that I have a different meaning to "Psi" then 3rd Rock does. His definition is MUCH broader than mine is.

So I now realize I have to ask another question: :unsure2;

Is the definition that 3rd Rock has for "Psi" also the majority of the people here??

That basically every body function from: going pee, pooping, picking up chicken at the dinner table with your hand/fingers - to typing on the computer - to using the remote to change channels on the TV with your hand/fingers, etc. Is this what the majority means when they use "Psi"??

Because I admit that my definition of "Psi" is much more narrow in meaning.

[Silentom]

So ok, I see now that I have a different meaning to "Psi" then 3rd Rock does. His definition is MUCH broader than mine is.

Well maybe 3rd Rock should state exactly what his defenition of "psi" is!

Edited to add my definition of "psi"

Well IMO Psi is short for psionics!

Psionics-is the practice of using a variety of psychic abilities. Although the evidence of psychic abilities in a controlled setting is not supported by science, believers in psychic phenomena have developed numerous hypotheses on its function. Beliefs on how these claimed abilities work vary greatly.

Edited December 12, 2006 by Silentom

[Jjbreen]

Ok, I have my nephew coming over Friday at 11:00am my time - and yes there is a but.

I have a 2" square piece of paper on a pin - and here are just a couple of days observations.

ACTUALLY JUST DO THIS YOURSELVES AND SEE FOR YOURSELVES! It is really that easy! REALLY. No special powers needed. Just a pair of hands, some eyes to observe and brain to think about the dynamics at play. Heck - I even give you key points to just think about while you are doing this.

OUTSIDE A JAR:

A. depending on the air temp and my hand temp - does effect the spin of the paper.

----> Can you guess why?

B. depending on where I hold my left hand it will spin counter-clock wise.

----> Can you guess why?

C. depending on where I hold my right hand it will spin clock wise.

----> Can you guess why?

D. depending on my hand temp and the room temp will effect how fast/slow it will spin -or- if it will spin at all.

----> Can you guess why?

I do this by using my hands and understanding of the science in play, I'm playing with science and NOT PSI. Go do the same thing - experiment and play a little. Use just this: Warm air molecules rise, cool air molecules fall. Based on how fast the molecules heat will effect how fast/slow the pin wheel will spin. WHY??

Here do these to see what happens:

Try this after running your hands in cold water. What happens and why?

Try this after running your hands in warmer than room temp water. What happens and why?

With the jar - try the same with the jar and your hands, playing with cold/hot - hot/cold - room temp, etc. With the simple dynamics warm molecules rise and cold drop - what is happening??

Now the above is very in line w/the dynamics of science that is at play.

Inside the jar.

A. depending on the room temp will effect how the pin-wheel will spin.

B. depending on the jar thickness plays into effect

C. depending if it's glass - plastic - or plexiglas will effect this.

D. If a colder room and warmer hands it will effect the speed and effectiveness of the pin wheel.

E. If warmer room and room temp hands - guess what will NOT happen? Guess why??

F. If you use a hair blower, coffee mug, etc - think about the dynamics at play.

...... 1. It does effect the air temp in an agressive manner.

...... 2. It does heat the glass and the internal and external air.

...... 3. Thus heats everything to fast to create air flow. Just think about it. Use simple logic. If nothing else get a couple of digital therm. and watch what happens. I did.

...... 4. Thus this will and does effect the air molecules hot/cold ratio. On Both Jar and No Jar.

I have had it spinning w/me not even near them! Remember what the pin wheel does: Confirms air flow.

Guys if you want proof - do you own tests - NOT just 5 minutes or 10 minutes or 30 minutes. I've been playing with different cause/effects now since Sunday for a good number of hours. Even have two jars and one two no jar setting on my work bench right now. I even found that going from glass to a semi (Maple) colored wood as an effect in both! I have had one jar pin wheel spinning while I'm at the computer and the other jar isn't spinning. I have the open pin wheels do the same thing too. So then one has to ask: Why is one and not the other spinning? Especially when I'm easily 4 feet from them. Just about all the dynamics I can explain - why one is spinning and the other isn't - I'd have to spend time evaluating that one. But for now I am convienced that the PIN WHEEL is not a good and/or valid testing for PSI -- UNLESS: You have a small fan or other source effecting the pin wheel to spin ONE DIRECTION or the OTHER. Then you use your THOUGHT ONLY (PSI) - to STOP IT from spinning and have it turn the opposite direction you have it spinning by the fan or what ever means. There can be NO PHYSICAL interference or contact in any way shape or form to effect this.

As for proving the science. I honestly at this point have to ask; Why?

I am not making any claims of 'super mind' powers. I am simply stating facts you can ask ANY science teacher, from Jr High, Highschool and college level to confirm. So just go ask them! Heck even do some internet research This is not extraordinary information or powers, it's jr high science. So if you want proof of what I say - Go ask a science teacher, the information is really that easy to find out. Unless you are afraid to ask and find out the truth??

AND ABOVE ALL - HAVE FUN - yes have fun experimenting. Why not??

Jj

Added:

A highschool teacher friend of mine even pointed out to me and proved it: the medium that you use to hold the pin is also at play in all of this. Which when he pointed it out - going 'duh, he's right...' There are so many factors in this pin wheel that do effect it - be it a small part or big - there are a lot of dynamics at play - too many to account for. He even point out to me the heater being on is at play, the walls in my work room, the carpet and static electricity is at play. I didn't take that into thought. So ya - there is a lot at play here. Gotta love a teacher!!

So again I will state - you want proof, go ask your science teacher. Do not bring up "Psi" just ask about the science that is involved and then listen and ask questions... They love that!

Edited December 13, 2006 by Jjbreen

[Jjbreen]

Ok, we want to prove the existence of PSI. Great!

Some do and in fact, in some specific focal points in this arena it has been validated:

Illusionists have to study the dynamics of science and physics to pull off their illusions. Especially if they want them to look good! Why? Because they KNOW that in the audience there will be those that do know and understand physics, do know science and they have to be fooled too. Other wise they will be LAUGHED AT by those that understand the physics and science that ARE at play. The illusionist has to make it look like he’s violating those laws! They have to do the homework; they make totally sure that the illusion is totally perfect!

You have a tougher job –

You are not trying to pull off an illusion; you are trying to prove this is NOT science, not physics at play - but PSI.

This is NO EASY TASK!

YOU have to answer any and all challenges.

They have nothing to prove – YOU have everything to prove and answer too.

Now with the proving of PSI, I find it curiously funny that people just seem to want to ignore or have no understanding of the facts of science. They pass off science as PSI; it so doesn’t work that way.

The laws of science and physics are not PSI, unless you are working in direct and clear opposition of those laws.

You have to do nothing short of, to violate them, to work against them. This has to be clearly seen.

If you do not understand the facts of science and physics at play and someone says, “This is not Psi, it’s (this law of science/physics).” You did NOT do your homework!

The person looking and experimenting with PSI has to understand, at least the basics, of the science involved. Yes YOU really do. YOU HAVE TO HAVE a good working knowledge of the method YOU are choosing to use to prove the existence of PSI.

Now the PIN WHEEL seems to be the object of choice.

What I find curiously lacking is, that some of you seem lack or choose to ignore the simplest of concepts, air molecules rise when warmed and drop when cooled. Then what totally leaves me at a totally loss, some of you ask for “PROOF”?? Then some you choose to ignore the other laws of science and physics that are at play with the, paper, the glass, or that something BLACK is at the base. Then the sciences of, the glass stand you use, the mass and density of the jar, the temp of the room and that of your hands and so on. There is A LOT of science and physics going on ALL AROUND this pin wheel that you have to take into account. Heck even the weight of your paper of choice, the color and what it is made of, even how big or small it is. Even the color of the eraser or clay or silly putty is at play with this. All of this is at play with science and physics. Hey what are greenhouses made of and why? What science is at play here?? How is the jar you use being a greenhouse or the raised base that is often seen also?? DO YOU SEE HOW MUCH SCIENCE HAS TO BE ACCOUNTED FOR??

I suggest that you talk to a jr. high or high school science teacher!

Yes ask them about the science of what is at play here.

In fact I DARE YOU TOO!

This will give YOU things to watch for; things to try and even formulate your questions to ask a science teacher! If YOU WANT to prove PSI, then YOU HAVE to do the homework to make sure you’ve dealt with ALL the questions and problems of the science and physics involved. Those things YOU HAVE to answer clearly to have your claim of PSI to be accepted.

I do not have to prove the science –

YOU DO!

YOU are the one trying to convince people that this is not science but Psi.

YOU have to do your homework.

YOU have to understand what needs to be met to prove that this PIN WHEEL is proving PSI and not just responding the laws of science and physics.

YOU have to make sure you have asked, answered and then re-ask and re-answer all possibilities of any and all science and physics laws that are and could be in play, just like the illusionist.

YOUR job is much tougher then the illusionist in that you are trying to prove a FACT, not just pull off an illusion. Easy, no it isn’t. You’d find it easier to pull off the illusion!

Jj -

[Aere Thalia]

Ok, let me ask some specific questions here, 3rd rock....

Is it "Psi" that keeps our hearts beating?? Yes

Is it "Psi" that keeps us breathing? Yes

Is it "Psi" that digests our food? Yes

Is it "Psi" that comunicates our fingers to type on the keyboard? Yes

Thanks - Jj

Then he added to his answer:

QUOTE

You might not know it but it is your PSI who is asking these questions.

So ok, I see now that I have a different meaning to "Psi" then 3rd Rock does. His definition is MUCH broader than mine is.

I believe that the movement and creation of the human body, nature, etc. is various forms of 'life force' energy. Just like any chemical reaction, or rise or fall of temperature, there needs to be certain elements and conditions that are at play. It does take energy to keep the body alive and functioning, almost everyone does this daily, which is eating food, vitamins, drinking water or other beverages, breathing, etc. The tools that we use came from the earth/nature, whether it be taken from nature and molded or chemically made, it all comes from nature. Where does nature/earth come from in the first place? To sum it all up, Energy.

Various terms were created to separate certain methods and beliefs, as for 'psi' and 'sci' there are similar beliefs and methods, but there are differences as well. Though how vast are those differences or how close the similarities are would vary depending on the goals of each person. Essentially, the terms rarely matter, and the meaning behind it is something that can be learnt from, and the only one group that is left is experience, study, and knowledge, and what is to be done with it.

Edited December 14, 2006 by Risov'Misa

[Jjbreen]

I believe that the movement and creation of the human body, nature, etc. is various forms of 'life force' energy. Just like any chemical reaction, or rise or fall of temperature, there needs to be certain elements and conditions that are at play. It does take energy to keep the body alive and functioning, almost everyone does this daily, which is eating food, vitamins, drinking water or other beverages, breathing, etc. The tools that we use came from the earth/nature, whether it be taken from nature and molded or chemically made, it all comes from nature. Where does nature/earth come from in the first place? To sum it all up, Energy.

Various terms were created to separate certain methods and beliefs, as for 'psi' and 'sci' there are similar beliefs and methods, but there are differences as well. Though how vast are those differences or how close the similarities are would vary depending on the goals of each person. Essentially, the terms rarely matter, and the meaning behind it is something that can be learnt from, and the only one group that is left is experience, study, and knowledge, and what is to be done with it.

I understand what you are saying and for the most part I agree - But when one chooses to basically change what most people think of Psi being to such a broad deffinition to be just about anything your body does is Psi - moves Psi to very mundane events. Then we have to even get more specific to the point we over define it.

Natural body functions IMO should not be called Psi. I understand that's his call and fine - but then those he encourages and supports as being Psi - must understand his meaning of it. Thus the "uniqueness" of what people think of as Psi - isn't so unique - it's actually mundane and well - it would be like encouraging one to keep praciticing his Psi to type with his fingers on the keyboard. Pretty special, huh??

Plus in this - the point of post 88 - 89 pretty much points out the need to be aware and understanding of the science and physic dynamics at play. One cannot easily pass of Science as Psi - it simply will not 'lfy' - The pin wheel as pointed out has so many laws of science and physics - you really have to know and better know what you are claiming as Psi - or you will wind up looking pretty foolish.

[Aere Thalia]

I understand what you are saying and for the most part I agree - But when one chooses to basically change what most people think of Psi being to such a broad deffinition to be just about anything your body does is Psi - moves Psi to very mundane events. Then we have to even get more specific to the point we over define it.

True, I agree. I understand that there are many things in 'Psi' or rather Metaphysics that most people can't comprehend yet.

Natural body functions IMO should not be called Psi. I understand that's his call and fine - but then those he encourages and supports as being Psi - must understand his meaning of it. Thus the "uniqueness" of what people think of as Psi - isn't so unique - it's actually mundane and well - it would be like encouraging one to keep praciticing his Psi to type with his fingers on the keyboard. Pretty special, huh??

Well, people learn sooner or later...and I understand your concern for those who are new to all this, but I'm sure who ever thinks they are somehow 'special' because of 'psi' will learn that they aren't so 'special' afterall once they figure everyone has the ability to do what they can or do things even better. Its all about learning, progressing, not really about who wins.

Plus in this - the point of post 88 - 89 pretty much points out the need to be aware and understanding of the science and physic dynamics at play. One cannot easily pass of Science as Psi - it simply will not 'lfy' - The pin wheel as pointed out has so many laws of science and physics - you really have to know and better know what you are claiming as Psi - or you will wind up looking pretty foolish.

Well, that is true in the time being, there isn't enough people that have enough knowledge, comprehension, and awareness in many, many areas in this world's reality, metaphysics, 'science/physics', and even themselves at times.

I'd just like people to be able to move forward and learn something more than just go around in circles.

Edited December 14, 2006 by Risov'Misa

[Jjbreen]

I'd just like people to be able to move forward and learn something more than just go around in circles.

And the pin wheel does that quite nicely - it goes around in circles...

[Jjbreen]

You know what I keep finding curiously missing??

Except those that I have come to know and have to know me and our position is pretty much the same on the Pin Wheel -

That those who "believe" seem to totally ignore the science facts stated.

........>> WHY IS THAT?

I find it curious that they want a video to prove my point - yet I tell them "do it yourself - the things in post 88 & 89. No special talents needed! Or even better - print out un-edited of posts 88 & 89 and show it to your science teacher.

Funny (sad actaully) how this seems to be totally ignored! They go off on tangents of Metaphysical or other such side tracks - but NEVER address the issues presented in posts 88 & 89. Seems no one wants to address those at all. Seems they take a serious SIDE TRACK to AVOID it all together - Then ask me to provide a video to prove this.

One kid even PM'd this week with this: "Jj - does warm air molecules really rise when heated or is that something you just made up to debunk the psiwheel??" <-- I kid you not! My answer to him was: "Ever hear of a hotair balloon??"

See the problem is you have to refute the science and not with metaphysics. That is a belief and a theory. Science is a fact until proven otherwise. In this case - Air molecules rise when warm has been proven even before Hotair Balloons! Heat comes from you hands has been proven since man existed and knew he had hands! Body and temp and the other sciences mentioned here is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE - it's not even college level science. It is Jr High science if not 6th grade science.

So talk the science please - talk about the focal point.

At this point - the PSI WHEEL is so debunked and busted as a valid way to measure Psi abilities - it is simply neither credible or valid evidence. This is what you have to prove - the science is wrong or - show your Psi abilities by working clearly against science principles.

Jj -

[Aere Thalia]

Funny (sad actaully) how this seems to be totally ignored! They go off on tangents of Metaphysical or other such side tracks - but NEVER address the issues presented in posts 88 & 89. Seems no one wants to address those at all. Seems they take a serious SIDE TRACK to AVOID it all together - Then ask me to provide a video to prove this.

See the problem is you have to refute the science and not with metaphysics. That is a belief and a theory. Science is a fact until proven otherwise. In this case - Air molecules rise when warm has been proven even before Hotair Balloons! Heat comes from you hands has been proven since man existed and knew he had hands! Body and temp and the other sciences mentioned here is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE - it's not even college level science. It is Jr High science if not 6th grade science.

Everyone has their own explanations.

In my perspective, metaphysics and science is just another way of understanding 'reality.' I agree with most of what you've stated, and I understand that there is a significant difference between escaping reality and having a solid foundation to work with. Many people choose to face another 'reality' than the one that is in front of them, and place their focus away from the very real issues that bother them instead of fixing it. Too many people create more problems than they can solve, it isn't just 'science' or what people term 'metaphysics', it is who they are in the time being. Or the fact that they don't have enough information to begin with.

Anywayz, the 'theory' you provided Jj is a good theory, and a good way in understanding the details of what happens when 'psi' is used. There are effective ideas and knowledge that science can bring, I would agree with you on that, but there is more 'dynamics' in play. Though with the 'Psi' wheel tests/experiments are too 'light' and will be too easily moved as you've mentioned.

Now in using 'psi', when you use your own energy to heat anything, you are still using your own 'psi' energy to manipulate the current of the molecules. So it seems it is by focus and 'will' of energy to be able to affect anything physically. Though from experience, the energy used to move any object is condensed, it does have volume and a plasma type texture, and it does have a fair amount of heat.

Edited December 15, 2006 by Risov'Misa

[Jjbreen]

Ok, see I have a problem with the broad diffintion of Psi being one's natural body heat being used. That isn't "psi" that's using science. There is seriously a BIG DIFFERENCE.

When we start calling Psi - any and all bodily functions that are very normal and natural like, breathing, body temp of 97 - 99 degrrees, to heart beating, to talking to typing on the keyboard with our fingers. That just doesn't work.

Psi as more people than not think of it being - using your thoughts to control the Pin Wheel without any physical contact or even the normal temp of your body. This is called PARA-normal for a reason. What some, as I have begun to see use psi is typing on the keyboard w/your fingers. Sorry that doesn't 'cut it with me'. I can also say that the majority would agree w/me on this. So we are using the 'narrow' Para-normal meaning of Psi and not the normal 5 senses type meaning.

We have to draw a line here and make them clearly understood - other wise we wind up talking about two different meanings and that only adds frustration to the dialog.

So for this thread - Psi means Para-normal use of ones thoughts to influence an object with their thoughts and NO physical contact at all that might influence the outcome. Thus causing obvious doubts to the outcome.

Yes I can do this - > It's my thread.

Also the science I have presented here is NOT theory.- it's a very common and well established FACT as is the Hotair balloon - heard of that?? That is not a theory - it is a science FACT.

Jj -

Edited December 16, 2006 by Jjbreen

[Silentom]

Ok as i have stated on another thread, I feel that people on here are using the word Psi like the word Chi Ch'i or qi (pronounced "chee" and henceforth spelled "chi") is the Chinese word used to describe "the natural energy of the Universe." This energy, though called "natural," is spiritual or supernatural, and is part of a metaphysical, not an empirical, belief system. New Agers often refer to this energy as subtle energy. Chi is thought to permeate all things, including the human body. Such metaphysical systems are generally referred to as types of vitalism. One of the key concepts related to chi is the concept of harmony. Trouble, whether in the universe or in the body, is a function of disharmony, of things being out of balance and in need of restoration to equilibrium.

I feel that Psi is what a person would be using to perform Psionics - Moving an object with thought, Remote Veiwing, Etc.

[Aere Thalia]

If that is what you guys believe than that is what you guys believe. Its no skin off my back, people will find out sooner or later what fits who they are.

Jj, I never disagreed with you on your 'theory' about 'hot air', it is not quite fact to me, it is apart of 'truth' but it isn't the only 'truth' or 'theory.' I strictly believe that information changes, so I don't solidify anything, and prefer to keep an open mind to learn more.

I never stated it was 'body heat' that a person was using to move objects, I said "psi" energy that keeps a person alive. Most people know it was 'chi' or 'life force' energy, or "prana." There is enough 'psi' present and stored inside a person so that they are able to do things out of the ordinary, such as TK. There are various forms of 'prana' energy, it alters to body heat, or energy to move a person's limbs, it is what makes up the food that people eat, it is what gives some medication the ability to heal people, etc. Like what silentom mentioned. I prefer to simply call it 'energy' as that is what everything is made up of.

Certain people use various methods in doing whatever it is they like, and metaphysics is no acception to that.

And I understand what you had meant Jj that there is a line between 'fantasy' and 'reality.' But I highly doubt that anyone here has the solution to find complete 'truth', or has the ability to 'see' all 'truth' and 'fact.' People will take various routes to understand something because that is what they 'need' at the moment, and sometimes they can't always be taught a certain way by someone else. Everyone has their own line of thought and understanding, and as much as some people like to 'help' others learn their ways or what not, it isn't always 'right' for someone else.

Edited December 16, 2006 by Risov'Misa

[Jjbreen]

If that is what you guys believe than that is what you guys believe. Its no skin off my back, people will find out sooner or later what fits who they are.

Jj, I never disagreed with you on your 'theory' about 'hot air', it is not quite fact to me, it is apart of 'truth' but it isn't the only 'truth' or 'theory.' I strictly believe that information changes, so I don't solidify anything, and prefer to keep an open mind to learn more.

I never stated it was 'body heat' that a person was using to move objects, I said "psi" energy that keeps a person alive. Most people know it was 'chi' or 'life force' energy, or "prana." There is enough 'psi' present and stored inside a person so that they are able to do things out of the ordinary, such as TK. There are various forms of 'prana' energy, it alters to body heat, or energy to move a person's limbs, it is what makes up the food that people eat, it is what gives some medication the ability to heal people, etc. Like what silentom mentioned. I prefer to simply call it 'energy' as that is what everything is made up of.

Certain people use various methods in doing whatever it is they like, and metaphysics is no acception to that.

And I understand what you had meant Jj that there is a line between 'fantasy' and 'reality.' But I highly doubt that anyone here has the solution to find complete 'truth', or has the ability to 'see' all 'truth' and 'fact.' People will take various routes to understand something because that is what they 'need' at the moment, and sometimes they can't always be taught a certain way by someone else. Everyone has their own line of thought and understanding, and as much as some people like to 'help' others learn their ways or what not, it isn't always 'right' for someone else.

Ok - I know where you are coming from - I've heard this belief so many times in various New Age groups and those who live in their choice of subjective realities. But that is not the focal point of this thread.

But as Silentom has stated here and on another thread - for which I agree.

I feel that Psi is what a person would be using to perform Psionics - Moving an object with thought, Remote Veiwing, Etc.

I have to admit I am also getting more than just tired of people coming up with "one size fits all" subject reality and more often doing anything and everything they can to skate around the focal points of topics. Espcially when the evidence is being presented in all to clear evidence. They know they cannot seriosly debate the facts of science. They never address and accept the science FACTS, not THEORIES, at play. (Hint: Take that belief of your to a college level Science class and tell the class: Air Molecules rise when warm is a theory, it is not fact and it is not true.)

They do exactly what you did - throw in a 'broad metaphysical belief of "ONE SIZE FITS ALL" belief - that Psi doesn't mean this "specifc" POV - it means anything and everything that then basically making Psi equal, Breathing, Thinking, Typing on a Keyboard, Walking, Talking, to other bodily functions.

Then one has to ask: WHAT'S THE POINT?? WHY ARE THESE PEOPLE MAKING CLAIMS?? With this definition, it's actually silly to come online and say, "I move a pin wheel with my hands...", would equal me saying, "I used my "psi" (please note " " ) and told my feet to walk to the TV and back, AND I DID!! Wow!! Look at me, I have "Psi Abilities!! I'm special!! "!!

They go 'here' and 'there' - and NEVER ADDRESS THE FOCAL POINT OF THE TOPIC. Especially when the logic and science is presented by various people that DO show - the Pin wheel, in this case, is just that, a PIN WHEEL that validtes air flow and science.

It has yet to be submitted as proof of Psi - > MOVING IT WITH YOUR THOUGHTS AND NOTHING ELSE! <

I feel that you and others like you with this 'belief', well you are intitled to, totally. But you've done serious damage to the investigation and research of Psi, as I and Silentom and other define it to be. You've made it so ANYTHING IS PSI - Even taking a pee, is Psi! wow, isn't that special!! R U sure you really want to make it that special??

Do the ones practicing PSI want this definition?? Do you really want to be seen 'special' in this focal point of "Psi"??

The pin wheel in ALL video's thus far show and prove science and NOT Psi. There has yet to be any video to prove Psi - but plenty of evidence to prove Science at work! That is why the Pin Wheeel is such a great SCIENCE EXPERIEMENT and IS.

Jj -

[drakonwick]

Then one has to ask: WHAT'S THE POINT?? WHY ARE THESE PEOPLE MAKING CLAIMS?? With this definition, it's actually silly to come online and say, "I move a pin wheel with my hands...", would equal me saying, "I used my "psi" (please note " " ) and told my feet to walk to the TV and back, AND I DID!! Wow!! Look at me, I have "Psi Abilities!! I'm special!! "!!

They go 'here' and 'there' - and NEVER ADDRESS THE FOCAL POINT OF THE TOPIC. Especially when the logic and science is presented by various people that DO show - the Pin wheel, in this case, is just that, a PIN WHEEL that validtes air flow and science.

It has yet to be submitted as proof of Psi - > MOVING IT WITH YOUR THOUGHTS AND NOTHING ELSE! <

I feel that you and others like you with this 'belief', well you are intitled to, totally. But you've done serious damage to the investigation and research of Psi, as I and Silentom and other define it to be. You've made it so ANYTHING IS PSI - Even taking a pee, is Psi! wow, isn't that special!! R U sure you really want to make it that special??

Thank You Jj! That was a very well stated post.