PSI -vs- SCI

[Jjbreen]

Thank You Jj! That was a very well stated post.

Thank you kindly - now watch them avoid it or side track it w/other mumbo jumbo....

[drakonwick]

Thank you kindly - now watch them avoid it or side track it w/other mumbo jumbo....

well personaly i feel you have to know a bit about what you are delving into before you even make a comment on anything like this.

Knowledge is power...

Thanks

moro

Edited December 17, 2006 by Moro Bumbleroot

[Aere Thalia]

I have to admit I am also getting more than just tired of people coming up with "one size fits all" subject reality and more often doing anything and everything they can to skate around the focal points of topics. Espcially when the evidence is being presented in all to clear evidence. They know they cannot seriosly debate the facts of science. They never address and accept the science FACTS, not THEORIES, at play. (Hint: Take that belief of your to a college level Science class and tell the class: Air Molecules rise when warm is a theory, it is not fact and it is not true.)

They do exactly what you did - throw in a 'broad metaphysical belief of "ONE SIZE FITS ALL" belief - that Psi doesn't mean this "specifc" POV - it means anything and everything that then basically making Psi equal, Breathing, Thinking, Typing on a Keyboard, Walking, Talking, to other bodily functions.

Then one has to ask: WHAT'S THE POINT?? WHY ARE THESE PEOPLE MAKING CLAIMS?? With this definition, it's actually silly to come online and say, "I move a pin wheel with my hands...", would equal me saying, "I used my "psi" (please note " " ) and told my feet to walk to the TV and back, AND I DID!! Wow!! Look at me, I have "Psi Abilities!! I'm special!! "!!

They go 'here' and 'there' - and NEVER ADDRESS THE FOCAL POINT OF THE TOPIC. Especially when the logic and science is presented by various people that DO show - the Pin wheel, in this case, is just that, a PIN WHEEL that validtes air flow and science.

It has yet to be submitted as proof of Psi - > MOVING IT WITH YOUR THOUGHTS AND NOTHING ELSE! <

I feel that you and others like you with this 'belief', well you are intitled to, totally. But you've done serious damage to the investigation and research of Psi, as I and Silentom and other define it to be. You've made it so ANYTHING IS PSI - Even taking a pee, is Psi! wow, isn't that special!! R U sure you really want to make it that special??

Do the ones practicing PSI want this definition?? Do you really want to be seen 'special' in this focal point of "Psi"??

The pin wheel in ALL video's thus far show and prove science and NOT Psi. There has yet to be any video to prove Psi - but plenty of evidence to prove Science at work! That is why the Pin Wheeel is such a great SCIENCE EXPERIEMENT and IS.

What are you talking about? One size fits all? Never said that, and that is not what I mean. I said that people will find what they are looking for based on who they want to be.

Second, you have no idea what I believe Jj, but that is due to our different beliefs. And third, I'm so sorry to break it to you, but I don't believe in the New Age belief system. I'm so glad that you can simply make assumptions about that, and you cannot see where the differences lay. And no, I don't believe in any type of 'special' or 'uniqueness', people have lessons to learn and within their studies and their experiences they learn what they need to. I believe everyone is equal, and everyone has to deal with the same 'reality' as everyone else, but I don't believe that any person that clings to the physical world or to their own 'ego' is able to see this world for what it truly is.

And I don't quite understand why you view everyone that you come across that have a different view from yours as someone who is 'out of touch' with this world.

Only people who are 'immature' that would associate 'psi' or 'life force' energy with excreting waste, has a poor constructive argument, and I'm not the one who mentioned it. However i did mention that a person can use their own energy to move objects or do whatever it is they want. Not their excreted wastes. And in being able to do anything a person needs their 'will', thoughts, and expression of their 'will', which is known as actions. Manipulating energy is no exception to that. I never disagreed with your THEORY Jj. It is a theory because it is a concept put together by other's studies and experiments, and it is information that can be changed over time. I never said that it wasn't apart of the 'truth.' And I would admit that I have learned something from what you've presented Jj.

Also, if what you've presented is complete fact to you, then I'm not objecting that it means greatly to you, but don't force it down people's throats as if it is an absolute fact to others. There will be people who will agree and those who will disagree, that is part of the way the world works.

I have not done anything to ruin anyone's research, I don't know about others that you've spoken to, I have tried to encourage people to study and experience whatever it is they want evidence or 'proof' for, I believe that whatever they pursue is still knowledge and experience. People learn one way or another, you and others cannot always protect someone else from exploring what other people have ideas or opinions in, every person has a right to it. People learn that way, by exploring what is out there so they have a better grasp of ALL 'reality' and information. Each person has to decide what it is they want to do with their lives and set a solid foundation so that they can go after what it is they truly want despite the so seemingly 'distractions' that might be on the way. I don't deny what you call, 'subjective' and 'objective' reality Jj, all of it is very real indeed, please don't keep assuming that everyone else's views are the same if they differ from your own. No one has the same exact foundation as you, and who knows, others might find more information even if they have different beliefs.

Edited December 17, 2006 by Risov'Misa

[drakonwick]

What are you talking about? One size fits all? Never said that, and that is not what I mean. I said that people will find what they are looking for based on who they want to be.

Second, you have no idea what I believe Jj, but that is due to our different beliefs. And third, I'm so sorry to break it to you, but I don't believe in the New Age belief system. I'm so glad that you can simply make assumptions about that, and you cannot see where the differences lay. And no, I don't believe in any type of 'special' or 'uniqueness', people have lessons to learn and within their studies and their experiences they learn what they need to. I believe everyone is equal, and everyone has to deal with the same 'reality' as everyone else, but I don't believe that any person that clings to the physical world or to their own 'ego' is able to see this world for what it truly is.

And I don't quite understand why you view everyone that you come across that have a different view from yours as someone who is 'out of touch' with this world.

Only people who are 'immature' that would associate 'psi' or 'life force' energy with excreting waste, has a poor constructive argument, and I'm not the one who mentioned it. However i did mention that a person can use their own energy to move objects or do whatever it is they want. Not their excreted wastes. And in being able to do anything a person needs their 'will', thoughts, and expression of their 'will', which is known as actions. Manipulating energy is no exception to that. I never disagreed with your THEORY Jj. It is a theory because it is a concept put together by other's studies and experiments, and it is information that can be changed over time. I never said that it wasn't apart of the 'truth.' And I would admit that I have learned something from what you've presented Jj. If what you've presented is complete fact to you, then I'm not objecting that it means greatly to you, but don't force it down people's throats as if it is an absolute fact to others. There will be people who will agree and those who will disagree, that is part of the way the world works.

I have not done anything to ruin anyone's research, I don't know about others that you've spoken to, I have tried to encourage people to study and experience whatever it is they want evidence or 'proof' for, I believe that whatever they pursue is still knowledge and experience. People learn one way or another, you and others cannot always protect someone else from exploring what other people have ideas or opinions in, every person has a right to it. People learn that way, by exploring what is out there so they have a better grasp of ALL 'reality' and information. Each person has to decide what it is they want to do with their lives and set a solid foundation so that they can go after what it is they truly want despite the so seemingly 'distractions' that might be on the way. I don't deny what you call, 'subjective' and 'objective' reality Jj, all of it is very real indeed, please don't keep assuming that everyone else's views are the same if they differ from your own. No one has the same exact foundation as you, and who knows, others might find more information even if they have different beliefs.

WOW another very well stated post! Thanks Risov'Misa

And i do understand that everyone will have their on belief on what is being stated at hand.

By the way have any of you ever concidered debating this topic on the debate's board?

Edited December 17, 2006 by Moro Bumbleroot

[Aere Thalia]

WOW another very well stated post! Thanks Risov'Misa

And i do understand that everyone will have their on belief on what is being stated at hand.

Thanks Moro, I try. By the way, I like your new username.

[Jjbreen]

Risov'Misa -

I apologize for the tone of my post and the obvious frustration that was clearly seen. As it was in answer to your post it was not focused on your post alone.

It was the build up of more than a ‘few’ posts on this thread; kind of the “proverbial straw”.

More than a “few” posts that avoided the topic of this thread in “rants” that clearly had nothing to do with the focus of this thread, to exaggerated statements that again were nothing short of, well their exaggerated questions and statements showed a serious lack of exactly what I was addressing. A "few" people have done their best to avoid focusing on the thread topic instead of looking at the serious questions being asked, the serious and yet simple examples giving to show and give understanding. To what seems like a concentrated effort to avoid answering any of the stated questions.

I mean for instance: We had a Quantum Physics Tangent – which had nothing to do with the specific topic at hand. Then we had a “tornado” brought into the picture, this was seriously NO SMALL exaggeration of what is being dialoged and so on; people reaching for extremes to avoid the simple science facts relating to the Pin Wheel. I averaged 2 PM’s a day, not counting the posts in this thread, this week asking in various forms of what I got from this one 17 year old,” Jj – … Do air molecules really rise when warmed, or did you just make that up?...” My answer to him was simple, “… Did you ever hear of Hot Air Balloons?....” To the other extreme exaggerations or total tangents that had nothing to do, again, with the posted topic of this thread.

Now it would seem unintended as it was, your posts did have “New Age” words, phrases and such; that I’ve heard and read on many New Age Groups and New Age Believers. So I apologize for the “New Age” association. I guess as they say, ‘assumed guilt by association’ – in this case the way you phrased your words. I do, again, apologize.

To close – I am simply trying to keep the thread focused on the focal point. Science –vs- Psi. Again simply put – before people try to “pass off something as Psi” – they have to make sure it’s not Science. One classic example being the pin wheel, in that it is a clear, that science facts are being ‘scammed’, in some cases and ignorantly in others, as “Psi”.

For me again the term Psi means – Controlling and or manipulation of an object with just and only one's THOUGHT/MIND.

I again apologize and hope this clears up where our misunderstandings came from.

Respectfully - Jerry

[Aere Thalia]

Risov'Misa -

I apologize for the tone of my post and the obvious frustration that was clearly seen. As it was in answer to your post it was not focused on your post alone.

It was the build up of more than a ‘few’ posts on this thread; kind of the “proverbial straw”.

More than a “few” posts that avoided the topic of this thread in “rants” that clearly had nothing to do with the focus of this thread, to exaggerated statements that again were nothing short of, well their exaggerated questions and statements showed a serious lack of exactly what I was addressing. A "few" people have done their best to avoid focusing on the thread topic instead of looking at the serious questions being asked, the serious and yet simple examples giving to show and give understanding. To what seems like a concentrated effort to avoid answering any of the stated questions.

I understand that sometimes discussions can be frustrating especially with some that don't comprehend alot of what is being said.

I mean for instance: We had a Quantum Physics Tangent – which had nothing to do with the specific topic at hand. Then we had a “tornado” brought into the picture, this was seriously NO SMALL exaggeration of what is being dialoged and so on; people reaching for extremes to avoid the simple science facts relating to the Pin Wheel. I averaged 2 PM’s a day, not counting the posts in this thread, this week asking in various forms of what I got from this one 17 year old,” Jj – … Do air molecules really rise when warmed, or did you just make that up?...” My answer to him was simple, “… Did you ever hear of Hot Air Balloons?....” To the other extreme exaggerations or total tangents that had nothing to do, again, with the posted topic of this thread.

I agree Jj, 'tornado' isn't a small exaggeration comparing to the Pin Wheel, I think perhaps some people are either trying to cause mischief or they really don't have enough information about something. So I can just imagine how hard it is to put up with some people.

Now it would seem unintended as it was, your posts did have “New Age” words, phrases and such; that I’ve heard and read on many New Age Groups and New Age Believers. So I apologize for the “New Age” association. I guess as they say, ‘assumed guilt by association’ – in this case the way you phrased your words. I do, again, apologize.

Its forgiven, there are too many ideas and concepts that New Age believers/groups have taken from various sources that they claim and embelish. So, I understand where you are coming from.

To close – I am simply trying to keep the thread focused on the focal point. Science –vs- Psi. Again simply put – before people try to “pass off something as Psi” – they have to make sure it’s not Science. One classic example being the pin wheel, in that it is a clear, that science facts are being ‘scammed’, in some cases and ignorantly in others, as “Psi”.

I understand. From observation and some study, Science is actually something that is quite informative and I believe that it is a good way to cancel and confirm some things. It has a way of pinpointing certain details of effective and ineffective materials or methods. So I see your point.

For me again the term Psi means – Controlling and or manipulation of an object with just and only one's THOUGHT/MIND.

That is actually something that I'm looking into, what I've found so far that perhaps you might find useful is that there are two main ways of 'Psi' projection (TK)...One would be emotions, which is energy in itself, but that also couples with the 'will,' as the 'will' ensures something to happen. The second is the focused thought and the object's energy of making it move along with the 'will.' Not many people can focus their mind on an thought and object, and put enough energy into it to make anything significantly move. Usually at times with certain people it happens somewhat spontaneously. The mind is usually either too cluttered, or it simply can't focus and the energy, thought, and 'will' is scattered everywhere into chaotic bits and pieces.

I again apologize and hope this clears up where our misunderstandings came from.

Respectfully - Jerry

It does clear things up, thank you Jj, I appreciate your honesty.

Sincerely,

RM

Edited December 17, 2006 by Risov'Misa

[brave_new_world]

That is actually something that I'm looking into, what I've found so far that perhaps you might find useful is that there are two main ways of 'Psi' projection (TK)...One would be emotions, which is energy in itself, but that also couples with the 'will,' as the 'will' ensures something to happen. The second is the focused thought and the object's energy of making it move along with the 'will.' Not many people can focus their mind on an thought and object, and put enough energy into it to make anything significantly move. Usually at times with certain people it happens somewhat spontaneously. The mind is usually either too cluttered, or it simply can't focus and the energy, thought, and 'will' is scattered everywhere into chaotic bits and pieces.

It does clear things up, thank you Jj, I appreciate your honesty.

Emotional stress in the subconscious can trigger off latent psychic energy, making things move about unconsiously. People often think it is ghosts when it is themselves. Some people can control it consciously.

Also anything done on an individual level involves "self-will" or "desire" so if i say that PK is the ability to move objects with my mind(different vibrational fields) i would be correct. The "will" is there without saying. It requires will for everything we do whether driven by the conscious self or subconscious.

[Leonardo]

Jj,

Sorry to butt in. I've been reading a lot of this thread over the past couple of weeks and it appears a lot of the ambiguity and frustration exhibited by yourself and others is simply down to a misunderstanding of definitions. Some people, like 3rd Rock, have given their explanation of PSI as being the 'chi' or 'life energy'. There doesn't appear to be anything wrong with this description in my opinion. You and Silentom agree on the definition being 'the ability to change the state of something using the mind'.

Again, nothing wrong with that, to me though they appear to be two perspectives of the same phenomena. To change the state of something - getting the wheel to stop spinning etc - you need to exert a force and this requires energy. It doesn't matter that this energy is manipulated by mental control, it is still required. This energy must exist already, as energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed.

Using energy to breathe, to move etc could be described as a use of PSI as the mind is controlling what we do with the chemical energy we derive from food. This still fulfills your criteria of using the mind to change the state of something. That it is your own body is immaterial.

Technically, if you used the heat output from your hands to effect this change, without touching the object you are changing the state of, meets your definition of PSI. It doesn't matter that it is science also. If PSI exists and can be explained by science it is still PSI.

What you want to ask for is an interaction that does not use any of the known energies radiated from the body to effect the change of state. So if one were to be able to interfere with gravity for example. An example of using energies the body naturally radiates but with the effect being orders of magnitude beyond what could be explained by science would suffice as well, such as stopping the pin-wheel revolving against an airflow stronger than could be generated by the heat from your hands.

I know you have tried to get your definition of PSI accepted but, in my opinion, you really do need to clarify and specify the ambiguities in what is meant by 'controlling something with your mind' as this is something we actually do every day (and energy is always involved in any interaction).

Edited December 17, 2006 by Leonardo

[drakonwick]

Emotional stress in the subconscious can trigger off latent psychic energy, making things move about unconsiously. People often think it is ghosts when it is themselves. Some people can control it consciously.

Also anything done on an individual level involves "self-will" or "desire" so if i say that PK is the ability to move objects with my mind(different vibrational fields) i would be correct. The "will" is there without saying. It requires will for everything we do whether driven by the conscious self or subconscious.

The idea that an 'unconscious' exists and influences our conscious life is one of the most widespread assumptions of psychology, though the need too assume it - or its correctness - is not accepted by all schools of psychology. However, this conception has become so common and has also been shown to improve our understanding of the human psyche in important ways, that it cannot be overlooked by any serious psychology. There is by no means one clear idea of what the unconscious consists in, which is a major source of confusion in most psychology.

The word 'unconscious' is mostly used without explanation or definition is a great weakness because so many qualities, phenomena, types of behaviour, functions or effects are variously ascribed to it. It is remarkable how many people, including professional psychologists, jumble up the various possible meanings. Established writers in the field seldom even attempt to define or explain with any satisfactory precision what they mean by it.1 So we need clear definitions to distinguish the main relevant and current meanings of the word. To what extent each of these may be valid concepts or useful hypotheses in application is then examined.

[Jjbreen]

Ok - Now that the points between Risov'Misa and myself have been made.

I would like the thread to please get back onto the focal point of this thread - Science -vs- Psi:

Spicifically at the moment - the Science of the Pin Wheel -

Thanks gang.... Jj -

[ssjtin]

Question, Jj, we know that pinwheels move through use of thermal currents. Correct, no arguement needed. Does this apply to very small, very light objects which aren't suspended in the same fashion? I.e. a tiny, tiny, only just visible portion of a tissue? I'm sure the same amount of "psychic energy" used to spin a pinwheel should be able to also move that, assuming that thermal currents don't affect it? Although I would say they probably do.

[Jjbreen]

Question, Jj, we know that pinwheels move through use of thermal currents. Correct, no arguement needed. Does this apply to very small, very light objects which aren't suspended in the same fashion? I.e. a tiny, tiny, only just visible portion of a tissue? I'm sure the same amount of "psychic energy" used to spin a pinwheel should be able to also move that, assuming that thermal currents don't affect it? Although I would say they probably do.

>IF< I understand your question - something as tiny as I think you are talking about would be subject to that, simply static electricity, heat, cold, - as small and light as I think is actually vulnerable to a lot of difference dynamics of science.

Did you ever see those white seeds flying through the air? When I was a kid, we called them "wish ferries" - if they went up (usally did) you got your wish, if they went down, well you didn't. The only time they would go down is if one cruched them while making their wish.

What I always found interesting - is that even when there was no breeze that could be felt or detected - these "wish ferries" were moved by what was obviously even the slightest of currents. As I got older I realized that even though there was no noticeable wind/breeze - the air molecules that were being warmed and rising were the cause/effect of the 'wish ferries' - they were so light that it didn't take much at all to make them go up.

Am I understanding the question??

Jj -

[mysticart1987]

So what you are saying is that you believe in some psi but not all that X-men have made to be there own!!

Psi has been around for years and you by yourself is trying to disclaim something that you or science cannot beat only try and keep up with!!

Science is trying to explain the ways of psi and any and everything that is paranormal, trying to catch up things that doesn't qualify with the rules of the science. Science is just trying to fit any and everything that is unexplainable into this little box called science and theory!!!

This world will always be mysterious, this universe will always be mysterious, people will always be mysterious, and most of all science will always be predictable in their ways of using and finding out knowledge!! Psi always brings new and improved ways of making this world work and is always ten steps ahead of you for you to comprehend the first step!!!

I am not disclaiming sci I love science and everything about it I absolutely adore science and its creations to produce things much faster!! But what was crazy not offending (hah never) is when you said that we "believers" lack scientific knowledge hahahahahaha!! This is one thing and not trying to argue is that I am very much smart in the field of science; actually my major was going to be in "nuclear technology". I understand science very much well but I love to draw and put together lines and mathematics and make blueprints and building that you live in!! So you just cannot say that we people just don't understand what you think that you know everything about!!

Knowledge will always grow and there will always be more to learn whether it is sci or psi.

Sci is only an extension of what we don't understand into something that understandable so that materials, thoughts, and life goes a lot faster and lazier!!

DhA...OraCle

-Randy W.

Edited December 17, 2006 by mysticart1987

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

I am not disclaiming sci I love science and everything about it I absolutely adore science and its creations to produce things much faster!! But what was crazy not offending (hah never) is when you said that we believers lack scientific knowledge hahahahahaha[ This is one thing and not trying to argue is that I am very much smart in the field of science; actually my major was going to be in nuclear technology I understand science very much well but I love to draw and put together lines and mathematics and make blueprints and building that you live in So you just cannot say that we people just don't understand what you think that you know everything aboutKnowledge will always grow and there will always be more to learn whether it is sci or psiSci is only an extension of what we don't understand into something that understandable so that materials, thoughts, and life goes a lot faster and lazier

DhA...OraCle

-Randy W

You love science but hate proof. Hmm. Interesting.

Edited December 17, 2006 by ericraven2003

[mysticart1987]

One thing love proof!! Another thing you and Jj are trying to tell people what they believe and what they know!!! You cannot when your knowledge is nothing really superior to the everyday college assistant professor, maybe who knows I don't. You are acting like some one with the knowledge of a child judging and basing people on their beliefs as they don't know anything, you cannot judge a book by its cover!! You are being a hypocrite or a two-faced; you believe but you don't believe!!

I love proof and that is why I am going to show mines and love to see things come to life with understanding!! Why because proof is only limited by a persons understanding, belief in its truth, or having the effect of evidence in convincing the mind!!

DhA...OraCle

-Randy W.

Edited December 17, 2006 by mysticart1987

[Jjbreen]

So what you are saying is that you believe in some psi but not all that X-men have made to be there own!!

Randy -

Dude, sorry to burst your Fantasy Bubble

X-Men are NOT REAL!! In fact they started out as a COMIC book! Based on nothing more than the imagination of the writer. Then it became a CARTOON! Then it became a {b]SCIENCE FICTION FANTASY. That is the foundation of X-Men - A COMIC BOOK!!

I really hate to 'burst your bubble' - but every character on there is PURE FICTION! People cannot shoot beams of rays out there eyes! People cannot have sharp blades come of the back of their hands. People cannot make snow, wind, fog and such 'just apear'. People cannot make ice form from their hands and will and connot make or control fire with their bare hands. ALL OF THIS IS FANTASY & FICTION!!

Jj -

[mysticart1987]

Randy -

Dude, sorry to burst your Fantasy Bubble

X-Men are NOT REAL!! In fact they started out as a COMIC book! Based on nothing more than the imagination of the writer. Then it became a CARTOON! Then it became a {b]SCIENCE FICTION FANTASY. That is the foundation of X-Men - A COMIC BOOK!!

I really hate to 'burst your bubble' - but every character on there is PURE FICTION! People cannot shoot beams of rays out there eyes! People cannot have sharp blades come of the back of their hands. People cannot make snow, wind, fog and such 'just apear'. People cannot make ice form from their hands and will and connot make or control fire with their bare hands. ALL OF THIS IS FANTASY & FICTION!!

Jj -

DUhhhhhhhhh What are you talking, just using it say that you are willing to believe some psi abilities as long as they are not X-men produced!! Comprehend patna!! And we are the ones stupid and ignorant!!!( not calling you that but you are making yourself out that way) I am naive sometimes but never unable to comprehend what someone is saying come on!!

Anyways do you know the full extent of the universe and its ways or do you know the full potential of humans anad science nooooooooooooo!! Why? Because if you did you wouldn't be here trying to find proof and belief in a subject that you are very much trying to understand!!

DhA...OraCle

-Randy W.

Edited December 17, 2006 by mysticart1987

[drakonwick]

DUhhhhhhhhh What are you talking, just using it say that you are willing to believe some psi abilities as long as they are not X-men produced!! Comprehend patna!! And we are the ones stupid and ignorant!!!( not calling you that but you are making yourself out that way) I am naive sometimes but never unable to comprehend what someone is saying come on!!

Anyways do you know the full extent of the universe and its ways or do you know the full potential of humans anad science nooooooooooooo!! Why? Because if you did you wouldn't be here trying to find proof and belief in a subject that you are very much trying to understand!!

DhA...OraCle

-Randy W.

Mysticart what does any of this you are talking about have to do with the science of how a pinwheel works? NOTHING.

That is unless you are still trying to say that psi is moving it?

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Grocerycart what does any of this you are talking about have to do with the science of how a pinwheel works? NOTHING.

All his posts are like this.

[drakonwick]

All his posts are like this.

I just feel everytime he makes a post it is only on what he thinks is going on, and mostly irrelavent from the actual topic.

usually ending up like some kind of jumbled mess that can hardly be read or understood for that matter, I have caught myself going back over his posts more than once to try and make any kind of sense out of it.

I have a simple question mysticart can you prove any other thing than what we have talked about on this thread is moving this pin-wheel?

Edited December 17, 2006 by Moro Bumbleroot

[Jjbreen]

Wow - ok, let's see if I can make this make some sense...

OK, yes I believe in Psi - Not a problem. But I do not accept statements of claims blindly or ignorantly.

Here is what I am about:

Credibility:

Accountability:

Responsibility:

Availability:

…. And NOT about excuses like, ‘only when I’m alone, does it work…’ or “I haven’t gotten there yet.” If one is ‘not there yet’, then do not make the claim. It’s just that simple!

I accept No claims that are so fine printed, that why bother making the claim? I am not about excuses, scams and fantasies and/or passing off clear laws and principles of Science or Physics as Psi.

I do not accept videos from the internet where I do not know the person. As has been seen from a few videos that people posted to “prove their point” – they were shot down as proven ILLUSIONS, LAWS OF SCIENCE CLEARLY SEEN or some no name from the orient that is not understood what he is saying, let alone what it is he is doing. There is no proof he’s not a mystic illusionist. For no one knows this 85 yr old man and what it is he did, let alone what was under the white table cloth.

I do not believe real Psi abilities are a mater of personal belief. I have experienced enough that the real thing will happen and be proven in a room full of Skeptics. What the skeptic chooses to do with the evidence is their issues not mine. But the clear evidence is presented w/little doubt as to what to place. How it happened could be open to speculation – but it was clearly evident it was NOT known and understood principles of Physics or Science.

I look at this from the “Skeptics” POV – after all we have to answer their questions, their doubts and their challenges. I expect it with what I’ve seen and done. It’s a reasonable expectation.

If one cannot answer and address the reasonable doubts, questions and observations of the skeptic, then one simply shouldn’t be making any claims.

I have presented reasonable doubts to the Pin Wheel. I have presented reasonable science that is at play. Those have not been addressed. The science at play is more than a well established FACT, since the days of fire, steam and hot air balloons to current history. Natural and normal body temps being passed off as Psi, isn’t PSI – there is NOTHING unique about it and it’s easily understood science facts that are at play. Again, it is NOT, to me, passing off understood science and physic laws as “Psi”, ie: Air Molecules when warmed rise. If you are warming those molecules with ones NATURAL body heat – that is NOT PSI it is science that can EASILY be explained.

I accept that science isn’t going to explain it – but they can validate it and ‘see’ it through observation, thermal cameras, EMF, EEG’s and/or enough validated experiences of people that are not being fooled by known science or illusionist.

Basically to me, Psi is your thoughts only –working:

…. against the normal laws of Science and Physics,

…. or despite it,

…. or when those laws cannot work for what ever reasons,

…. Or in harmony with science, but it is clearly seen this is ENHANCING science beyond what is expected under normal and expected science laws and facts. For example, one’s natural body temp is not such an enhancement.

Is this clear enough??

In other words – the Pin Wheel in all evidence thus far presented – has not proven any Psi abilities. It has proven time and again, well established principles and laws of Science and Physics.

[drakonwick]

OK, yes I believe in Psi - Not a problem. But I do not accept statements of claims blindly or ignorantly.

Here is what I am about:

Credibility:

Accountability:

Responsibility:

Availability:

…. And NOT about excuses like, ‘only when I’m alone, does it work…’ or “I haven’t gotten there yet.” If one is ‘not there yet’, then do not make the claim. It’s just that simple!

I accept No claims that are so fine printed, that why bother making the claim? I am not about excuses, scams and fantasies and/or passing off clear laws and principles of Science or Physics as Psi.

Yes this i can understand and agree with! But you know as well as i do that their are some people on here will just make up stuff about psi and it will never end because they feel so deeply that they can do these things!

And then you have the people that come on here making post's that i can't make heads or tails of what they are trying to tell us.

Edited December 17, 2006 by Moro Bumbleroot

[Jjbreen]

Yes this i can understand and agree with! But you know as well as i do that their are some people on here will just make up stuff about psi and it will never end because they feel so deeply that they can do these things!

And then you have the people that come on here making post's that i can't make heads or tails of what they are trying to tell us.

Granted and I agree - but believing one can do "these" things and doing "these" things are two different realities. One being: Honest, Credible RESULTS.

[drakonwick]

Granted and I agree - but believing one can do "these" things and doing "these" things are two different realities. One being: Honest, Credible RESULTS.

But most will say that it is impossible to do online without someone figuring out some kind of error!

Thanks

Moro