Government intellect

[Xenojjin]

The joy of it . I am making this poll as I said I would in the DARE conspiracy topic .

[Seraphina]

I thought a little of both...while most of what the US government does shows absolute lunacy, I do believe they're also out for number one to a certain extent, and do seem to spend a great deal of time telling US citizens a very different story from what's actually going on

The fact that said US citizens so zealously defend them seems to show it works just fine.

[Phantom]

You're talking about the Antartican government here? USA? Scottish ? Global (?) government?

Shouldn't you include an option: This Poll Is Biased Or Stupid (Or A Little Of Both)?

[Seraphina]

When has stupidity ever stood in the way of conspiracy theories?

[reese2]

Seraphina-

Once again, instead of making blanket statements about a Government and it's policies, which you do not live under, give me something that I can sink my teeth into....

and do seem to spend a great deal of time telling US citizens a very different story from what's actually going on 

Oh come on girl, you have got to hook me up!!!! You obviously have some information on what's really going down, so please, elighten me, and all the other misled, misinformed Americans here..... I am just so surprised that an 18 year old, that studies Biology, I believe, at a University in Scotland, knows more about our policies and goings on, than we do ourselves..... I am soooo impressed...

Seraphina, I actually dig your posts most of the time. (And, I know some people do as well) I find them to be informative, and yourself, quite intelligent.. But, I have to say, that personality of yours kicks in, and rubs me the wrong way... You have the charisma, of a dry piece of toast. You come off as a know it all, when you really have no life experience, and sadly, something that you don't get yet, that can affect someone's intelligence when it comes to debate life issues. Such as punishment for crimes, Government policy....

See, that is why, this isn't the 'Bush' show here... When you crack on his IQ, it makes you look like an idiot, because he doesn't run this country alone... He stands on the backs of all his collective advisors, each coming from a diverse background, and bringing their own life experiences to the table......

Life experience adds to your intelligence.... It enables you to think outside the box, and look at all aspects before coming to a conclusive answer to anything.

You do not do that. That sadly, comes with life, and you haven't had enough of it, crammed in a University, to make a difference to me.

I shouldn't have to tell you that people can be book smart, but extremely ignorant when it comes to social skills. (That of which you lack)

I stand by what I said though, you do seem extremely intelligent, but no one is hearing that.

When it comes to a question of Biology, you go girl, my hat tips to you, for I am extremely ill informed......... But, when you talk Government policy, or what is right or wrong with our system here, you fall short girl.. All you have are the opinions of others' that you have attached yourself to, with no real credible reason on behalf of yourself..... You don't vote here, you don't pay taxes here.. have you ever even been here? If you answer no to these, then how can you ever imagine that you, would have an insight into anything that takes place here? Do you read materials from your media?

I am so interested to find out what information you have that could show us that our Government is giving us a different story, about what is really going on... Could you please elaborate on that for me... I am not asking because I don't want to believe you, what I am asking for, is for something substantial, that will change my mind. I welcome that, on any level. I want to believe in the most outlandish stories about conspiracies, but being that I am smart (a little) I just can't believe something, without taking the time to make sure it is solid... (Since most conspiracies cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, I would take, compelling evidence just to sway on one side or the other)

Here in the US, we believe that someone is innnocent, until proven guilty. So, if you want me to bash any organization, which I would gladly do, you have to be able to convince me of it.

Reese

[Seraphina]

Well since you asked...here, for example, is what Nancy said is going on in Iraq (presumably told by your government)

What have we accomplished so far in Iraq? Power restored, hospitals open, women in the work force, children back in school, businesses opening left and right, among the many improvements in a very, VERY short period of time.

The U.S.-led occupation of Iraq, sold by President Bush as a smooth road to Iraqi freedom is actually turning into a nightmare for both the Iraqi people, and the occupation forces. US soldiers are being killed almost daily, with the largest death tole since the entire affair began occuring only a couple of days ago.

Iraqi opposition to the occupation is widespread among both Sunnis and Shias, and is not limited to Saddam Hussein supporters as the Bush administration and media have claimed. When a Shia cleric in Najaf called for supporters to demonstrate against American control, thousands took to the streets in one of many such demonstrations throughout Iraq since the occupation began.

According to IraqBodyCount.net (last time I checked) the number of civilian cassualties has risen to 6113...there's progress for you Having checked, it's actually risen to between 7000 and 9000 now.

During the power outage, leaving hospitals and homes without power, Iain Pickard, a British occupation official, slammed the U.S. for moving slowly to restore power. "All the repair work has been done by Iraqis, and none by the U.S.A.," he complained.

Instead, the U.S. has focused on its own priorities - securing the profitable oil fields and searching desperately for Saddam and his supposed weapons of mass destruction in order to justify America's drive to war.

On August 13, international labor groups also criticized the U.S. for detaining 34 union leaders without cause, demonstrating that the US will attempt to prevent the development of an independent Iraqi trade union movement.

In the Sunni town of Fallujah, U.S. soldiers fired on a crowd of Iraqi protesters, killing 18 and wounding 78; within a week, several civilians demonstrating against the deaths were also killed. The backlash was so severe that the troops were forced to compensate the families of the victims - $1500 per death, $500 per injury.

The instability in Iraq and the coming U.S. elections are pushing Bush to urgently set up some sort of Iraqi government. But the current Governing Council - never elected by the Iraqi people, handpicked by the U.S., and made up largely of former exiles close to the U.S.

Things in Iraq are "not that dire," a Bush administration official recently commented in the New York Times. But many Americans disagree, with 43% saying that the occupation is not going well, compared with 13% in May. Twenty-five percent of respondents in a recent Gallup poll want the troops out now, and another 33% said they should return home if casualties continue.

I might also point out that women already WERE in work in Iraq, as I've frequently stated, it's not a fundamentalist country. However, as the Shia are beginning to grow in strength with Saddam gone, they probably won't be for long, as they are The Shia are the anti western ideology that rule in Iraq. Heck, I'm pretty sure the Iraqi ambasador to the U.S.A WAS a woman before all this

Now...I don't know how much of that was printed in the US press, or admitted by the government...buy hey, we got it so did most other countries.

Don't you find it suspect that everyone is is telling one story about how bad things are in Iraq, and the US government tells a completely different story? It's not like the UK even has a bone to pick with the US, we've been your closest allies through this

[saxcatz]

I thought a little of both...while most of what the US government does shows absolute lunacy, I do believe they're also out for number one to a certain extent, and do seem to spend a great deal of time telling US citizens a very different story from what's actually going on

The fact that said US citizens so zealously defend them seems to show it works just fine.

Blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Seraphina decides to spread hatred and ignorance again today. No matter what the topic, she WILL find a way to p*** EVERYONE OFF and spread her baseless lies.

My vote goes for stupid.

[saxcatz]

Apparantly, Seraphina never stopped to, even for a second, consider that maybe it's HER government and the oh-so-glamorous governments of "Old Europe" that are spreading the lies to further thier best interests.

Oh no! THEY could NEVER be wrong.

Not saying that they are; but did you ever consider that YOUR sources might be the ones that are wrong??? Of course not...

[Seraphina]

geez...*scratches the back of her head* and to think...when I said "zealot" they said I was making it up

True, true, my sources could be wrong...I'm not above accepting that (though obviously you're above accepting that yours could be ) However, when more than one unrelated source tells the same story and a single source is telling another, that's when you need to ask questions, no?

[saxcatz]

I do not believe that the Iraqi ambassador was a woman. Does anyone have the time to look it up and find out?

[saxcatz]

geez...*scratches the back of her head* and to think...when I said "zealot" they said I was making it up

Since all your arguments have been based on the fallacies of ad hominem, prove me wrong, and arguing from ignorance... I'm going to digress; since reasoning with you is pointless.

You are an ignorant, conceited, baseless fool. You need to take a step back, come down from your horse, and live in a world where people other than you have opinions and facts other than the ones that you have been innundated with do exist.

We've admitted our faults... I've yet to see you admit yours.

Ok, I've come down to your level. I wonder if I look as foolish as you now.

*Seraphina edited her post while I was typing this.*

[saxcatz]

geez...*scratches the back of her head* and to think...when I said "zealot" they said I was making it up

True, true, my sources could be wrong...I'm not above accepting that (though obviously you're above accepting that yours could be ) However, when more than one unrelated source tells the same story and a single source is telling another, that's when you need to ask questions, no?

You're operating off the (incorrect) assumption that only US news sources are telling "our" story. This is not true; the stories are splintered throughout the world. Undoubtedly, there is much truth in both stories. Unfortunately, you still portray the attitude that your sources are clearly correct and that no other sources could contain more (or any) of the truth... you even refuse to see the reports from your own and other news sources that tell you anything you don't want to hear. Sad. I hope you never went to university...

[Seraphina]

Excuse me? When have I said I'm above fault? I stated an alternative opinion, someone asked for how I supported that opinion, and I did.

You, in reply, call me narrow minded, concieted, and so on and so forth. Obviously, you're not all that accepting of alternative view points

I'm actually pretty critial of the UK government's handling of the situation in Iraq as well as the US's. In the long run, I don't doubt they'll be better off...however, it doesn't matter on the issue here, and that is that they're making a complete mess of the occupation, and don't seem to be giving all the facts about how badly they're going about it

And I am in Universtity, thankyou

If you disagree with me, then hell, go right ahead. Break down my arguement with facts. If all you're going to respond with is agression, and telling me how stupid I am, then you're not really mature enough to debate with me

[moe eubleck]

I do not believe that the Iraqi ambassador was a woman. Does anyone have the time to look it up and find out?

I think this may help. its part on an article I found, yes i have no life.

Having served as U.S. ambassador to Iraq since 1987, Glaspie unexpectedly found herself on July 25, 1990 meeting for the first time with Iraqi President Saddam Hussain in Baghdad. She knew Saddam never received foreign ambassadors but there she was just the same, sitting across the desk from the Iraqi strongman.

Glaspie’s own career odyssey as the first American woman ambassador to an Arab country was itself an improbable tale. When she entered the Foreign Service in 1966, her chances as a woman of becoming an ambassador were virtually nil. The State Department “culture” was against it.

Somewhere along the way, however, the Department “discovered” that it had very few woman ambassadors, and even fewer deputy chiefs of missions (DCMs, or deputy ambassadors). So the gender gap was narrowed, and Glaspie, who had an outstanding record (DCM in Damascus and a top political reporting officer citation for 1975), was sent to Baghdad as U.S. ambassador.

Notice : " the first American woman ambassador to an Arab country "

I think this may help your belief.

[saxcatz]

Excuse me? When have I said I'm above fault? I stated an alternative opinion, someone asked for how I supported that opinion, and I did.

You, in reply, call me narrow minded, concieted, and so on and so forth. Obviously, you're not all that accepting of alternative view points

I'm actually pretty critial of the UK government's handling of the situation in Iraq as well as the US's. In the long run, I don't doubt they'll be better off...however, it doesn't matter on the issue here, and that is that they're making a complete mess of the occupation, and don't seem to be giving all the facts about how badly they're going about it

A.) Your SIGNATURE; just for one.

B.) I am accepting of others opinions when they are accepting of mine... I do not feel that I have to accept the opinions of another who is not willing to listen to my own. I listened to you and respected your opinions until you began to p*** me off on a regular basis. It is your unwillingness to accept, address, or otherwise deal with other's opinions that makes you ignorant and concieted.

C.) I agree that they're making a complete mess of the situation in Iraq. And disagree with you in saying that the US media hasn't portrayed this. They have, quite well. The problem with the media you're subscribing to is it's bias. The US media both assaults the US for it's mistakes, and pats it on the back for it's accomplishments. The European media, on the other hand, seems to crucify the US for it's mistakes, and either brush over or completely ignore it's accomplishments.

I can roll my eyes all day long too, but it won't accomplish anything.

[saxcatz]

I do not believe that the Iraqi ambassador was a woman.  Does anyone have the time to look it up and find out?

I think this may help. its part on an article I found, yes i have no life.

Having served as U.S. ambassador to Iraq since 1987, Glaspie unexpectedly found herself on July 25, 1990 meeting for the first time with Iraqi President Saddam Hussain in Baghdad. She knew Saddam never received foreign ambassadors but there she was just the same, sitting across the desk from the Iraqi strongman.

Glaspie’s own career odyssey as the first American woman ambassador to an Arab country was itself an improbable tale. When she entered the Foreign Service in 1966, her chances as a woman of becoming an ambassador were virtually nil. The State Department “culture” was against it.

Somewhere along the way, however, the Department “discovered” that it had very few woman ambassadors, and even fewer deputy chiefs of missions (DCMs, or deputy ambassadors). So the gender gap was narrowed, and Glaspie, who had an outstanding record (DCM in Damascus and a top political reporting officer citation for 1975), was sent to Baghdad as U.S. ambassador.

Notice : " the first American woman ambassador to an Arab country "

I think this may help your belief.

Yes, an AMERICAN ambassador to an ARAB country. Not an ARAB ambassador to a US country. IE, I was right. Thank you.

[reese2]

You know Seraphina, I am not going to bash you, because I believe you get what I am saying. (I said before, you are intelligent, and on most every other issue, I dig what you say)

You cannot prove that your sources are reliable.. I cannot prove that mine are either. But, being that I do have some brain cells left, I am smart enough to not bash any entity, if I cannot prove that the claims that I spew are legite. I am just challenging you and anyone else, with their Bush, war, politics, claims, to back it up. Being that you are a smart gal, you know that I am not going to get the evidence that I am asking for. (You simply don't have it) I am more trying to prove a point that reading editorials, does not constitute proof. There can be 20 stories from 20 sources, that are saying the same thing, but you should know, that doesn't make it credible, it makes it repeated.

I am going to believe in my country and my President, until given good reason to sway me the other way.

Like I said Sera, when it comes to Biology, you have the scales tipped in your favor, but when it comes to American policy, you just aren't informed enough to make a rational choice either way, just by reading editorials.

It is always easier to look in through a window, then it is actually being inside. You critisize from a distance, which makes you and anyone else, appear bitter, and judgemental, along with misinformed. If you want to discuss this with me, I certainly will. As I stated before, I am so into calling someone out, when they have done a wrong. But, you have to show up to the game wearing your sneakers, if you want a fair play.

Reese

[saxcatz]

Excuse me? When have I said I'm above fault? I stated an alternative opinion, someone asked for how I supported that opinion, and I did.

You, in reply, call me narrow minded, concieted, and so on and so forth. Obviously, you're not all that accepting of alternative view points

I'm actually pretty critial of the UK government's handling of the situation in Iraq as well as the US's. In the long run, I don't doubt they'll be better off...however, it doesn't matter on the issue here, and that is that they're making a complete mess of the occupation, and don't seem to be giving all the facts about how badly they're going about it

And I am in Universtity, thankyou

If you disagree with me, then hell, go right ahead. Break down my arguement with facts. If all you're going to respond with is agression, and telling me how stupid I am, then you're not really mature enough to debate with me

I am more mature than you; as represented by the fact that I HAVE broken down your arguments with facts. Unlike you, I do not currently have time to cite sources... but what I present to you is abstract facts, nontheless.

I haven't said you're stupid Seraphina. I know you are not. Ignorance has to do with close-mindedness and conceit; which you seem to have in no short supply. This is not ALWAYS a bad thing, and can be an admirable trait. But in an argument, it leaves you at a disadvantage... as you always believe that you have an advantage, no matter what is said, and encourages you to ignore others arguments (as you have been doing) since you find yourself above them. This is the reason that I questioned wether you attending university; as typically, the close-minded better-than-thou attitude does not equal success at that academic level.

You know, I do apologize for being so harsh on you. In many ways, I admire you and find you a fun and fascinating online persona. But the fact that you ignore everything you don't want to see is something that I CANNOT ignore.

[Seraphina]

A.) Your SIGNATURE; just for one.

I've explained that one several times...why do people keep bringing up the same arguement to use against me

B.) I am accepting of others opinions when they are accepting of mine... I do not feel that I have to accept the opinions of another who is not willing to listen to my own.  I listened to you and respected your opinions until you began to p*** me off on a regular basis.

So to p*** you off, I have to disagree with you I've not disregarded anything you've said, merely argued against it. You, on the other hand, in launching into a temper tantrum as you seem to be now, are the one disregarding mine in favour of a hostile repsonse.

C.) I agree that they're making a complete mess of the situation in Iraq.  And disagree with you in saying that the US media hasn't portrayed this.  They have, quite well.  The problem with the media you're subscribing to is it's bias.  The US media both assaults the US for it's mistakes, and pats it on the back for it's accomplishments.  The European media, on the other hand, seems to crucify the US for it's mistakes, and either brush over or completely ignore it's accomplishments.

I doubt that, in fact if Blair was given any more shining an example of how wonderful the US and this struggle to releave the people of Iraq is, we'd probably be blind. Perhaps it's you who have the misconception of exactly how much foreigners hate you? I'm pointing out what I see as the gaping holes in one line of thought about what your government is reporting over Iraq, that's about it.

I can roll my eyes all day long too, but it won't accomplish anything.

Probably not, we're both pretty hard headed

[soulfire78]

So it was a US ambassador to Irag...not an Iraqi ambassador to the US....I see.

The idea of government intelligence is a bit of an oxymoron. Here you have all these university ivy league educated people running around trying to figure out how to best spend all the money they didn't earn, and doing a miserable job of it.

As far as Iraq is concerned, the US so far appears to have made a mistake. However, if the Iraqi people (and the international community) are really so mad about having Saddam gone, then I propose that we fix the problem. Pull out the troops and send them back to their families. Let the Iraqi's keep all the money we (the US) have already poured into repairing what was broken BEFORE we got there (incuding the ancient marshes that Saddam ordered drained to kill the Marsh Arab People). Then we should really find out where Saddam is and put him back in power. I'm sure thay want to go back to having a madman that would murder his own familymembers as the leader of their country again. (If you haven't noted my sarcasm by now, you're slow.) I can tell you, if the US weren't occupying Iraq, maybe Bush could concentrate on the issues waiting for him on the homefront, and it would take a lot of economic pressure off of the US's already depressed economy.

[reese2]

Saxcatz is right Sera,

Our news agencies, are always on top of the government, when there is need. If ANYONE had a good piece of evidence of anything that would implicate our policy makers in scandal, of any kind, a US news agency, would scoop that up. We would be the first to put it out there on front street.

As far as the Sera bashing.. I know you understand where this is coming from. At every opportunity you make comments about how blind we are, how we are being decieved, etc. You have to know when writing that, it will spark anger in some people. (I am the front runner on that list) I say, stick to the facts, and if you want to discuss something concerning US politics, then ask some of the many well informed people here. (Homer, Nancy, Magikman, etc..) They will give you the straight scoop.

Reese

(Sera, I like what you post as well) Stubborn as all hell, but entertaining and MOSTLY knowledgable.

[Seraphina]

At every opportunity you make comments about how blind we are, how we are being decieved, etc.

That's not...strictly true I spend a great deal of time raising an eyebrow over conspiracy theorists too. I do think there IS a limit to how much the government keeps from the public.

In any case...my belief that you're not privy to everything that's going on comes largly from the fact that...well, for example, I gave my arguement earlier here, and the responce I got was

bla bla bla bla bla bla

etc

[reese2]

Seraphina- you softy..........

You know the whole blah blah blah thing was more out of frustration, than Saxcatz putting forth a compelling argument....

Reese

[Seraphina]

Yeah, I just thought my way of putting it was funnier

whoops, return key posted instead of taking a new line..one sec, gotta add on to this

*coughs* friggin i.e...Microsoft...if ANYONE'S an evil organisation bent on world domination....

Anyway...I suppose my opinion comes from the fact that the moment anything that implied the US was botching up the Iraq occupation was mentioned, me and those others that stated it were showered in nay saying. An attempt to argue back seems to, ultimately, have lead to being accused of ignorance, orin my case being patronised as though I were a child My veiws don't just randomly pop into my head while I'm watching rugrats you know.

While accusing me of being closed minded, it seems that again and again, I'm encountered by people who argue that my ideas must be wrong, because I'm 19, and "don't know enough about the world". True, I'm not the most hardened veteren currently living in society, but I'm still able to form an opinion based on the facts as I see them.

This strange idea that young people don't know what they're talking about seems to be the more arrogant and conceted idea than anything I've yet to do or say. Dismissing me on the basis of my age, and 'worldy experience', regardless of where I get my facts or information is dumbfounding at best

[reese2]

Yeah, it was.................