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cheo_vl

If A Tree Falls In The Woods...

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is the integration of a person always a prerequisite

to reality

Edited by henry9449

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If I hang myself in my solitary jail cell, and there is no-one around to hear my last struggles, or even see it, would I be dead?

Yes.

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Yes it does make a sound

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Yes it does. Sound is simply an energy and the effect this energy has on the surroundings can be measured after the fact. It is pompous of us to assume we have such influence as to be able to negate this by our absence.

No. It is pompus to assume we know what happens outside our experience of things.

An honest person understands that there is no absolute answer to this question.

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If a tree falls in an empty, lovely forest, does the tree make a sound, does it even fall, does it even exist – and does the forest exist without it and can it still be lovely?

Answer: Science shows that the sound of the tree falling in an empty forest is equal to the sound of one hand clapping multiplied by the speed of light squared over Pi pie ala mode.

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So... animals don't have ears? :w00t: only a human being can something? :w00t:

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It does make a sound. You are forgeting that there are frequencies that the human ear cannot hear but it is there anyway. Sound is the air vibrating. So if the air is vibrating then a sound is being made it doesn't matter if a person csn perceive it or not. If a light is on in a room and nobody is in there to see it is there still light in the room?

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This is a hoary old thing of little use in analysis. The problem merely plays on two different but closely related definitions of the phrase, "Make a sound."

It can mean (1) Cause sound waves (compression vibrations) in the air.

Or it can mean (2) Be interpreted as a sound by a sensate animal.

Since usually the two always go together, we don't normallly need the distinction, and therefore don't notice how the paradox is really just a confusion of the two meanings.

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eta... once a horse did a wee wee on me...that was a hell of a lot noisier..and damper.. :hmm:

Tell me - why were you lying under a horse?

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It's a self-explained question. The question already contained the answer. The word "fall" apply the rule "cause=>consequence" so we can deduct the consequence out of it. If asking a question differently "If a tree is in the forest, will it make a sound?", this way we only know that it exists, we don't know what it will do.

More importantly, "how do you know that the tree actually fell in the forest if you were not there to witness it?", the claimed "fallen" tree could be brought by someone else to the forest.

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There is a story of a monk who passed by two other monks arguing about a temple flag waving in the wind.

One said: "The flag moves"

The other said: "The wind moves"

They argued back and forth but could not agree.

The monk passing by said: "It is not the wind that moves, it is not the flag that moves; it is your mind that moves.

So in my opinion it is a matter of ones own observation and perception. Quantum physics tells us that events happen differently by way of observation.

Its like the cat in the box paradox. The cat is supposed to be dead but is alive in the box until someone opens the box and observes that the cat is dead.

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You were doing great until you introduced quantum physics.

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Sound is a sensory perception and perceptions exist only in the mind.

Therefore it doesnt matter if you are there or not as sound isnt objectively real.

If sound is only a perception... how can the right frequency/vibration break a wine glass?

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Sound is a perception; sound waves are what we call the compression waves that travel through the air and get interpreted in our minds as sound.

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I don't think it does make a sound. For there to be a sound, two things must happen: vibrations must be emitted, and, they must be "heard" by something, otherwise they are just a disturbance in the air.

The same question could be asked about smell, if a bear poops in the woods, does it still smell?

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I suspect the bear will smell it.

People make way too much of all this. We only make the point that what we think we see, hear, smell and so on is an illusion. The reality is light waves and sound waves and chemicals floating about in the air. The latter is physical and through complicated brain processes gets turned into experiences in our minds ("qualia").

These experiences are not delusions (unless there is no physical stimulus in the first place). They are illusions -- they are not the real thing but only our experience in our mind.

This was profound when the Buddha (or whoever -- it was probably understood long before him) pointed it all out, but modern neurology works with this all the time now.

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please consider the implications of the infinite IS there there is no begining no middle therefore all events fall between what was and what maybe see beyond the forest ,

one side of the trees is shade one side is sunlight and knowledge.

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Sound is a perception; sound waves are what we call the compression waves that travel through the air and get interpreted in our minds as sound.

hi Frank, that's a good distinction , Sound /perception, and, Sound Waves /physical. Yes, we perceive sound . We also perceive light, if we close our eyes does the sun stop shining? If we plug our ears does a sound stop? Does it stop being a sound the instant we no longer hear it? .. I get your distinction though.

So ,ok , from now on if a tree falls anywhere on earth and I'M not there to hear it, i'm gonna have to assume that it didn't make any noise at all. :P

*

Edited by lightly

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So... animals don't have ears? :w00t: only a human being can something? :w00t:

are you sure !!!

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are you sure !!!

perhaps you should think without the pipe

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Genocyde clarifies it: If a tree falls in the woods it produces vibrations, which are sounds when auditory organs (human or otherwise), or a recording device, are present. The idea that such energies still are "sounds," if detected after the fact by some sensitive audiometric process or another method, is questionable at best. Ships at sea blowing a foghorn make noise heard by the crew (and cetaceans and other "hearing" sea critters); but an abandoned ship with an automatic foghorn blowing at 15-second interviews makes no "sound" until ears, human or otherwise, are within range of its vibrations and can interpret them as sound. The whole practice of "soundproofing" minimizes audible vibrations, but does not eradicate sound. Physical absence of the vibrations does. Someone else already mentioned that this distinction is mainly a semantic one.

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Agree with Genocyde..

The sound wave exists but it doesn't become a sound until it hits a device that can convert the wave to sound

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if a tree falls in the woods and there's no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?

If a man jumps from the ledge of a cliff, does he suffer the consequence, or will he live unharmed because no one was there to witness the tragedy? This question is ridiculous and to say a sound isn't made is to say humans are the only beings able to comprehend sound. Sure, the sound is irrelevant to whomever wasn't witness to the falling of the tree, but the bird who was perhaps upon a branch of it surely can say different, if a bird could talk.

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Agree with Genocyde..

The sound wave exists but it doesn't become a sound until it hits a device that can convert the wave to sound

I understand this ^ ... but what if we compare sound with light? Light travels in waves (frequencies) too. Is it not Light until it hits a device that can convert it? Is it not "LIGHT" until it's seen? Light can be Felt, as heat. Sound can also be FELT .. What about a frequency that is too low to be heard , but can be FELT ? Is that not SOUND?

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I understand this ^ ... but what if we compare sound with light? Light travels in waves (frequencies) too. Is it not Light until it hits a device that can convert it? Is it not "LIGHT" until it's seen? Light can be Felt, as heat. Sound can also be FELT .. What about a frequency that is too low to be heard , but can be FELT ? Is that not SOUND?

Your not feeling the sound your feeling the wave, frequency is just a measure of the amount of vibration. which is why at certain frequency we are able to feel it

We don't hear light but we feel it we don't feel or hear the higher or extremely low frequency either unless we convert the information into an audible,

We hear sound because we have evolved to convert certain frequency, roughly the same frequency range that's achievable through speech, into sound.so we can communicate.

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