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crystal sage

Basques. .TOCHARIANS. Guanches

112 posts in this topic

History... and archeological evidence... ie... the discovering of Redheaded Mummies all over the world is adding an interesting new slant to history as we know it!!!

http://www.white-history.com/hwr6a.htm

" In addition to the great White Indo-European migrations, several other waves of White migration occurred, varying in number, influence and spread - the most spectacular being a White settlement in North America dating from approximately 7000 BC.

Knowledge of these migrations has been lost for centuries - in some cases thousands of years - but due to relatively recent archeological finds, have now been rediscovered. In this way Nordic and White Mediterranean remains - sometimes preserved naturally, sometimes preserved through artificial means - have been discovered in China, the Canary Islands and in North America - most of them many thousands of years old.

The discovery of these mummies shows without question that early White migrations across seas and continents took place - it is just the exact numbers of individuals who undertook these migrations which is still a matter of debate.

THE TOCHARIANS - THE GREAT LOST WHITE CIVILIZATION IN CHINA

One of the furthermost eastern migrations of Celtic peoples - Indo-European Nordics - reached the Takla Makan desert (situated between Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tibet) in China around 1500 BC.

This great migration was unknown until the 1977 AD discovery of 3500-year-old graves of these people. As a result of the natural dryness of the environment, many of the corpses are almost perfectly preserved, with their reddish-blond hair, long noses, round eyes and finely woven tartan clothing (usually associated with the Celts in Scotland), showing undeniably White racial traits."

By the early 1990s, over a thousand Nordic corpses had been uncovered from the graveyards in the region (called Wapu); but by 1998, the Chinese government had halted further archeological expeditions to the area, quite likely for fear of exposing yet more ancient European faces to the world.

The current inhabitants of the surrounding lands, who are obviously not pure Chinese and who speak a form of Turkish, rather than Chinese, have been agitating for

An examination of one of the mummies' bodies showed incisions that virtually matched those found in Egyptian mummies, although the string used by the Guanche embalmers to close the wounds was much coarser than would have been used by the Egyptian experts.

The Guanches also possessed the art of writing, although this has not yet been the subject of any major study.

THE GUANCHE PYRAMIDS ON THE CANARY ISLANDS

However, the most stunning link between the Guanches and the Egyptians comes in the form of pyramids - the Guanches built several small step pyramids on the islands, using exactly the same model as those found in ancient Egypt and in Mesopotamia. The pyramids have an east-west alignment which also indicates that they probably had a religious purpose, associated with the rise and setting of the sun.

Carefully built stairways on the west side of each pyramid lead up to the summit, which in each case has a flat platform covered with gravel, possibly used for religious or

ceremonial purposes.

independence for some time.The position of the Canary Islands and the route of the Canaries Current to and from the Americas. The existence of the red-haired Guanches on the Canary Islands, combined with the red-haired pre-Columbus mummies found in South America and the marked similarity in pyramid building styles, indicate that Whites probably used the Canaries Current to cross the Atlantic, most likely between 2000 and 500 BC. Columbus himself used the Canaries Current, setting out from the Canary Islands on his first crossing of the Atlantic in 1492 AD.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1796497/posts

“Modern DNA and ancient DNA show that Uighurs, Kazaks, Krygyzs, the peoples of Central Asia are all mixed Caucasian and East Asian. The modern and ancient DNA tell the same story,” he said.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1796497/posts

MA ANTHROPOLOGY

MAA PHYSICAL APPEARANCE

* Polynesian Features Not Asian

* Blond Eskimos

* White Africans

* White Indians in Panama (San Blas, Darien Tribes)

* Welsh Indians

* Mandan Origin

* Red-Haired Nevada Indians

* Redmen in Africa and Madagascar

* Amerinds in China

* White Indians in New Mexico and Northwest

* Bearded Indians in Brazil

* Semitic New Guineans

* Ainu Origin

* Yellow race in Africa

* Living Neanderthals [bHE, Human-Neanderthal Hybrids]

* Chinese Characteristics of the Maya

* Asamanukpai: the Gold Coast Dwarfs

* The Maya Sacral Spot [bHA]

* New World Dwarfs

* Samurai Origin

* Whites in Polynesia

* Melungeon Origin

* Maoiri Origin

* Pre-Maori New Zealanders

* Polynesians in South America

* Long-Ears on Easter Island, the Maldives, and Elsewhere

* Whites in the Maldives

* Beothucks: Norse in Newfoundland?

* White Inca Aristocracy

* Toltecs: Carthaginian Origin?

* Basque Origin

* Sea Peoples Origin

* Berbers with Blond Hair, Blue Eyes

* White Pygmies in Paraguay

* Guanche Origin

* Blacks in America [MGT, Olmec Stone Heads]

* Titans: Who Were They?

http://www.puppstheories.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2155

"

In 1911 several mummified remains of red haired humans were found in Lovelock Cave about 70 miles NE of Reno, Nevada. They stood about 6.5 to 8 feet tall (2-2.5 metres) and were mentioned in the local legends of the Piute Indians of the area. Scientists were reluctant to look at the bones, most of which ended up being thrown away by miners. A few, including this skull which is almost a foot long,, is at the Nevada Historical Society in Reno.

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http://www.barnesreview.org/html/august1997lead.html

Blonds in the Far East and American Northwest

By Prof. Phillip Bonner

The idea that Caucasians inhabited both China and the North American continent thousands of years ago has never been acceptable to the anthropological establishment. But the discovery of blond mummies in China has caused a re-evaluation of this thesis, and whole new patterns of migration between the continents are now considered distinct possibilities.

In April 1994 the science magazine Discover published an epoch-making article called “The Mummies of Xinjiang.” Later advertisements for the magazine were to read “What are 4,000-year-old blond mummies doing in China?”

The article contains pictures of blond and red-haired mummies up to 4,000 years old from the Chinese province of Xinjiang.

The world-famous geneticist Luca Cavalli-Sforza of Stanford University, author of History and Geography of Human Genes, speculated that these were a few stray Europeans who somehow wandered thousands of miles east into China.

In the popular press there were a number of articles expressing astonishment that blond people had somehow wandered so far east so early.

Actually, some scholars who had taken the trouble to learn Chinese, Mongolian, Sogdian and other Oriental languages, as well as explorers and archeologists who had done research in Central Asia and China, had long ago figured out that white people from Europe played a major role in China since the beginning of civilization.

In 1939, Oxford University Press put out a book called Early Empires of Central Asia by William McGovern which goes into great detail about the role of white people in China and Central Asia. He quotes repeatedly from Chinese, Turkish and other historical records.

The blond mummies of Xinjiang are only the tip of the iceberg. There are skeletons, mummies, face masks, paintings, sculptures and vast historical records proving that white people have played a major role in Chinese history from the beginning.

Around 4,000 B.C. the horse was first domesticated by blond Indo-Europeans living in and around what is now Ukraine. They left the valleys and started a new way of life, that of the steppe nomad. These people had vast herds of cattle, goats, sheep and horses. They invented wagons and carts around 3,000 B.C. This nomadic group made the world’s first mobile homes, later called kibitkas, a huge wagon with far-apart wheels that carried a home constructed of wood and felt. These were pulled by up to 20 oxen.

From the riverbanks of Ukraine and Russia, this wandering tribe now spread out over the virtually uninhabited steppes, or grassland prairies. Their herds of animals provided them with meat, milk, clothing and felt. Their wagons provided them with mobility. They quickly spread in every direction through the steppes. Of note is a band of steppe between 50 and 600 miles wide and 6,000 miles long which stretches all the way from Central Europe to Manchuria, near the Pacific Ocean. Blond people speaking Indo-European languages quickly occupied this vast area.

Every several hundred years or so the steppe belt was hit with a drought. Animals and people started dying of hunger and thirst. This caused massive migrations out of the steppes. The first recorded time this occurred was around 2,000 B.C., when vast numbers of nomads poured out of the steppes and invaded Europe, Egypt, the Middle East, India and northwestern China.

Nordics just east of the Ural Mountains had invented the chariot just a hundred years earlier. This gave them a huge advantage in warfare. The similarities between chariots from the Caucusus Moun tains and China are astonishing. Chariots were associated with the ruling class in China as in Egypt, the Middle East, India and elsewhere.

In Gansu province, China, there has been found painted pottery, almost identical to pottery artifacts found in Tripolye, Ukraine and other places in between these locales. Pottery from Anau, Turk menistan, Susa, Iran and Trialeti, Romania are almost identical to pottery from the Honan and Gansu provinces of China.

Many words in ancient Chinese were borrowed from Indo-European, including words for chariot, horse, warrior, prince, spear, axe and ruler/emperor. Even the Chinese character for king comes from the west. In modern Chinese it is “wang,” but scholars tell us that the ancient Chinese pronounced it “gwang.” If we add the character for “white” to the character for “king” we get a character that is the symbol for “emperor.” If we add the character for “man” to the character for “white,” we have a character which means “duke.” In other words, a white man is a duke, and a white king is an emperor. The common people were called “the black-haired people.”

Chinese history is an endless repetition of the same pattern. In vad ers from the steppes conquer China, become Sinicized, intermarry with Chi nese, and become weak. Then they are conquered by a new wave of invasions from the steppes.

Even today frescoes of white people can be found in Ulan Bator, the capital of Mongolia. They have blue eyes and are said to be “arhats” or followers of Buddha.

The Mongols who conquered China and much of Eurasia in the 1200s were led by men who sometimes had red hair and blue or gray eyes. Marco Polo, who met Genghis Khan’s grandson Kublai Khan in person, describes him as being “white and ruddy.”

cont......

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Uhh... you've got a long, long way to go to suggest the Tocharians were related to any other Western European group. I mean, hair colour is a pretty thin rope to grasp.

--Jaylemurph

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Posted (edited)

Uhh... you've got a long, long way to go to suggest the Tocharians were related to any other Western European group. I mean, hair colour is a pretty thin rope to grasp.

--Jaylemurph

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharians

This mysterious ancient race that seeded the world with redheaded mummies... they are being found at all ends of the earth from before the time of the ice age...floods... rumoured to be linked with the Basques.. who have a distinct gene type... B) interesting....

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1160355/posts

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mttoc.html

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEA...5-11/1131918512

Edited by crystal sage

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As usual, your logic escape me.

None of these links says anything about the Tocharians being related to Western Europeans (especially the wikipedia link). About the best you can do is say they are one of the east-most speakers of an Indo-European language. A lot of your posts seem to blur language and genetics like that.

--Jaylemurph

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Posted (edited)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair

GLOBAL RED HEADED MUMMIES WEARING TARTANS!!!

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archi...ames;read=44381

What I'm interested in is how and where the redheaded race seemed to be turning up all over the world... they seemed other wordly...advanced...influential.. ..enough to be mentioned in legends... art....

We are now intrigued to find mummified remains of them all over the world.. that often predate our records or expections of when civilization accurred in those places...

now we are finding that they have unique DNA...

How do they fit in with our history of the world???

Does it need to be rewritten????

Edited by crystal sage

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Posted (edited)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair

GLOBAL RED HEADED MUMMIES WEARING TARTANS!!!

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archi...ames;read=44381

What I'm interested in is how and where the redheaded race seemed to be turning up all over the world... they seemed other wordly...advanced...influential.. ..enough to be mentioned in legends... art....

We are now intrigued to find mummified remains of them all over the world.. that often predate our records or expections of when civilization accurred in those places...

now we are finding that they have unique DNA...

How do they fit in with our history of the world???

Does it need to be rewritten????

How does having red hair in different cultures in different places make you a member of the same race?

Could we therefore extrapolate that all blonds are from /another/ mysterious ahistorical race?

'Cause less honorable people could mine that idea for unflattering blond jokes.

--Jaylemurph

Edited by jaylemurph

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cant remember if this is the correct thread, but since crystal sage is everywhere this'll do,

those blue folk u were on about....arent they sri lankans?

like krsna?

unless their really smurfs

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How does having red hair in different cultures in different places make you a member of the same race?

Could we therefore extrapolate that all blonds are from /another/ mysterious ahistorical race?

'Cause less honorable people could mine that idea for unflattering blond jokes.

--Jaylemurph

no I'm not saying they are of the same race... it's that maybe they were of another civilization completely that settled all over the world... sharing their knowledge... and what has also been brought up on other sites is that they too seem to be found near where all the pyramid style cultures existed... and ancient mining areas...

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no I'm not saying they are of the same race... it's that maybe they were of another civilization completely that settled all over the world... sharing their knowledge... and what has also been brought up on other sites is that they too seem to be found near where all the pyramid style cultures existed... and ancient mining areas...

doesnt some acidic soil turn hair red? or did i just make it up?

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Posted (edited)

doesnt some acidic soil turn hair red? or did i just make it up?

:lol: I have heard that some forms of malnutrition can cause hair to go red!!!!

^_^

No my fascination with red hair has been varied... lately it was piqued by reading of all the redheaded Mummies being dug up all over the world... and learning about the Basques who seemed to have travelled all over the world sharing some of their culture and metaphysical.. magic knowledge seen accasionally in the Druidism.. of Merlin... stonehenge technology... early inklings of withcraft... secret societies... pyramids...biblical tales... ancient Indian legends... Chinese legends.. Syrian legends...American Indian Legends... Easter Island...African Legends... Polynesian Legends... that are now being validated by the discoveries of these Redheaded Mummies at all these places!!!

With modern technology we can now check their DNA.. learn about their diets.. do hair annalasis...

History needs to be reveiwed to accomadate all these findings.... I think :tu:

Here's another interesting post ...

"Much of archeology and anthropology is not considered "politically correct", and the findings are only published in scholarly journals - which does not capture the interest of the average person. What has been established thru the few skeletons that have been found with hair still attached and, the even fewer, that have been cross-matched genetically, is that red haired peoples were once much more common than at present.

Briefly,

Ramses II had red hair (with the mummification process, hair colour is much more likely to be perserved) and it is estimated that 10-15% of the Egyptian population was red-haired at this time.

North-west China, Mongolia and Siberia were, at one time, almost exclusively Caucausoid (which is NOT the same as "white European")with a number of red haired skeletons, and dna sampling from one such skeleton which was conclusively linked to the present population.

Red haired skeletons, in fact, appear to be the most frequent finds (in skeletons that are to be found with hair)in all northern latitude areas such as Siberia.

This can be cross-referenced with the myths and legends of ancient peoples. In China, the populations were, at one time, far more diverse than at present, where the descendents of the Han now dominate. The Hmong people claim that Chi-Yu had "red hair" (Chi-Yu was a contemporary of the legendary "Yellow Emperor" who, along with the Hmong and the Han, represented the three nations that formed China) although other contemporary indigenious peoples in the area speak not of "red-haired ones" but of "yellow haired ones". Among the Inca, the Aztec, the Haida, the Okanagan and many, many others - there are legends of white-haired, or red-haired, or yellow haired, or blue eyed, people.

I could cite example after example, however, many governments and peoples are openly hostile to archeologists who wish to explore human origins and have shut their borders to them.

This is unfortunate, as the legacy belongs to us all, and it appears that early humans were far more sophisticated and widely travelled than is commonly imagined.

However, the most authentic "birth certificate" for red hair, if one could call it that, is "The History of Germania" by the Roman historian/scholar Tacitus - widely regarded as the most accurate of all ancient writers. In commenting on the physical appearance of the "Germans" (please note that the ancient Romans were not much better than the average American in lumping peoples of a geographic zone together such as the misnomer of calling anyone who lives in the Middle East an "Arab", or, even worse, a native North American an "Indian"!!!)he noted that they were exceedingly tall (archeologically this has borne up - average height male 6'5", average height female 6'), "powerfully built, and red-haired with blue eyes - the whole damn race of them!"

Unfortunately, the disappearence of the "red-haired ones" has not been an accident. Rather than get into the depressing details let it suffice to say that, in Europe (according to Tacitus), the women were venerated, and it was a matri-lineal culture. The women, and their adoring males (Tacitus also noted that "the Germans" differed from all other peoples as they were content with one wife apiece, or, perhaps it was the women who suffered no rivals!)stood vehemently opposed to imposition of the "Christian" faith. They valued freedom and were fiercely independent, fighting first the Romans and then the Catholic Church, to bring an end to Slavery - and were one of the few peoples in the world who did not base their economy on it. The women were well known for fighting in battle (the legend of the Amazons) and led many an army into battle against their enemies.

The battle against Christianity in Europe raged for over a thousand years(!)and, in order to break these people, the Church, adopted and then promoted, the belief that red-hair was evil and a product of "the devil". The on-going slaughter that resulted has changed the face of Europe. Today, in Germany, only 5% of the population is considered indigeneous. The "Germans" really only exist in myth and legend now. The Lord of the Rings - is a truer story about this past than people realize - JRR Tolkien was a mythologist (scholar).

Also provoking curiosity are the paintings by Renaissance artists such as Titian and Micheangelo, and the murals that cover the churches in Siena, Florence, Venice - dominated by red haired subjects. Reflections of their populations at the time?

The most fascinating statements that Tacitus made was that these red-haired people were considered by the Romans to be "the most ancient race" of man. HHmmm. The fact is that the history of all peoples has suffered great harm thru the loss of oral tradition, and the rise of institutionalized religions and governments that seek to legitimize themselves by wiping out all knowledge of what preceeded them (witness the burning of the Alexandria library, not once, but twice!).

It is sad, and leaves humanity the poorer for it.

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/000309.html

Edited by crystal sage

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Posted (edited)

History... and archeological evidence... ie... the discovering of Redheaded Mummies all over the world is adding an interesting new slant to history as we know it!!!

As we learn about ancient cultures, it's becoming obvious that they did way more travelling than we first thought.

For the record, though...

the color of the hair of mummies or buried people always changes over large time periods. Hair contains a mixture of black-brown (eumelanin) and red-yellow (phaeomelanin). Phaeomelanin is much more stable than eumelanin, so that the phaeomelanin in the hair is better preserved over time than the eumelanin. So the hair appears to be lighter than it was in life.

The mummy of Ramses II has greyish-red hair and it was definitely black in life.

Edited by Siara

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Anyone hear more of this???

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/08/08/europe/georgia.php

http://www.abc.se/~pa/publ/findphas.htm

\

Preview of 2000:

After the exciting discovery of what appears to be the vanished city of Phasis, PARK will continue its cooperation with the Center for Archaeological Studies (CAS) in Tbilisi in the year 2000. Several unusual programs are offered for the months of June to August 2000. Participation is limited, so early application and booking is essential. Students are invited to review with their respective schools whether credit might be obtained for their participation in these projects. Registration is to take place exclusively through PARK.

Continuation from previous year:

* Maritime archaeological survey of central Georgian Black Sea coast, Batumi to Poti, for shipwrecks of 1st mill B.C., in connection with port town of Phasis.

* Extended underwater survey and begin of underwater excavation of suspected Phasis site in estuary of Paliastomi.

* Trial excavation of a remaining tower suspected to be a Roman fort described by Arrian, previously part of Russian military airport.

After the exciting discovery of what appears to be the vanished city of Phasis, PARK will continue its cooperation with the Center for Archaeological Studies (CAS) in Tbilisi in the year 2000. Several unusual programs are offered for the months of July to August 2000. Participation is limited, so early application and booking is essential. Students are invited to review with their respective schools whether credit might be obtained for their participation in these projects. Registration is to take place exclusively through PARK, a not-for-profit organization of Texas, USA.

:huh::mellow:

What's going on here???

Georgia and the mysterious missile

http://edwardlucas.blogspot.com/2007/08/ge...us-missile.html

Why Georgia must join NATO

IT IS a fair bet that if Georgia were in NATO the missile that hit the village of Tsitelubani on the evening of August 6th would never have been fired.

The Russian view seems to be that on this and other occasions the Georgians have been inventing tales about bombing, or even bombing themselves, in order to attract western sympathy. Georgia says that two Russian Sukhoi Su-24 attack aircraft entered its airspace from Russia, fired a Raduga Kh-58 air-to-surface missile (which failed to explode) and left.

Russia insists that nothing of the kind happened. It is of course theoretically possible that Georgia is engaged in an elaborate bluff involving secret planes, faked debris, forged radar logs and diplomatic histrionics.

But it is startlingly unlikely. After all, it would be hard to conceal such a ploy from the many American and other foreign military advisers based there. If Georgia is to have a chance of persuading unenthusiastic NATO members like Germany that the club needs to take in still more members, it needs to radiate responsibility, not pull stunts. The former, not the latter, is just what President Mikhail Saakashvili and his government have been doing.

Furthermore, if the attacks were faked to whip up outside support for Georgia, they have failed miserably. In March, a mysterious raid by nightflying attack helicopters rocketed public buildings in villages in the Kodori Gorge, a region of the breakaway region of Abkhazia where Georgia has reestablished its rule. The western response was almost inaudible.

Investigating that bombing—in which, luckily, nobody was killed—was shunted off to the United Nations Observer Mission in Georgia (UNOMIG), which monitors the Russian “peacekeeping” efforts in Abkhazia. UNOMIG's bureaucrats shuffled paper for three months and then produced a feebly inconclusive report.

Wherever the latest, seemingly abortive, attack was actually aimed, it has also produced alarmingly little Western support. That may be because it is August, and most decision-makers are on their holidays. But if the result is to show for a second time that Georgia is rather isolated, that will send a useful signal to the Kremlin about any future planned adventures in the region.

It may also be that Russia wants to derail Georgia’s new and successful approach towards reintegrating the smaller breakaway region of South Ossetia. A pro-Georgian parallel government has been unnerving the Kremlin-backed administration there.

Whatever the aim, it comes at a high price: mysterious air raids just across the border from the Olympic site of Sochi hardly fit the image of stability and dependability that Russia is trying to promote. As with many other events in the Caucasus, the real explanation may lie in the Kremlin's internal power struggles, not in geopolitics or diplomacy.

The underlying lesson though is that Georgia should be in NATO sooner rather than later. Even the most paranoid Russian would presumably admit that once in the alliance, Georgia would have little need to bomb itself. NATO expansion calms things down: that is the lesson of the Baltic states, which joined—in the teeth of Russian objections—in 2004. None of Russia’s warnings about the effect of NATO expansion into the “former Soviet Union” have proved true. The Baltic region is more stable now, not less, as a result (and things would be still better if Finland and Sweden joined too).

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Hi CS!

As always lots of links to check on. As you know from previous responses I have a deep interest in Euskara, and Euskadi. I have to say that the link to Freerepublic has thrown up lots of errors. The Basque words (with one exception) do not appear as a real Vasco word (not withstanding that the Vasco language was only first written 250 years ago), so I have to discount their provenance. I have even tried replacing the "Z" with a "TX" (correct Vasco spelling) but cannot find a match.

As for the genetic similarities, the one striking thing about native Vasco's is their high preponderance of O-rh-ve blood types ( same as myself), there are no other proven genetic specific traits that I am aware of. And, certainly, the preponderant hair colouration is brown (red is very rare), blue eyes are even rarer - the preponderance is Green (again as mine) or brown.

Always a fascinating read though CS!!

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Hi CS!

As always lots of links to check on. As you know from previous responses I have a deep interest in Euskara, and Euskadi. I have to say that the link to Freerepublic has thrown up lots of errors. The Basque words (with one exception) do not appear as a real Vasco word (not withstanding that the Vasco language was only first written 250 years ago), so I have to discount their provenance. I have even tried replacing the "Z" with a "TX" (correct Vasco spelling) but cannot find a match.

As for the genetic similarities, the one striking thing about native Vasco's is their high preponderance of O-rh-ve blood types ( same as myself), there are no other proven genetic specific traits that I am aware of. And, certainly, the preponderant hair colouration is brown (red is very rare), blue eyes are even rarer - the preponderance is Green (again as mine) or brown.

Always a fascinating read though CS!!

What do you think of either the Georgian link

They have a fascinating history...

and are also very near to the underground cities of Turkey

I suspect that there are some in Georgia too...

http://www.georgiaemb.org/DisplayMedia.asp?id=252

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-A...4-04/1082202558

This potential Basque-Celtic connection is very interesting indeed.

When my husband and I first came to Georgia a few years ago, we were

told that the only hypothetical connections between the Georgian

language group (which includes Georgian, Mingrelian, Svan and Tsan, and

Georgian-Jewish [a dialect of Georgian as Yiddish is of German and

Ladino of Spanish] -- all languages restricted to the Caucasus region)

are Basque and Gaelic. Since then, we have heard that some linguists

have pooh-poohed the potential Gaelic and/or Basque connections with

Georgian -- now if they are connected with each other that adds to the

sense that there could be possible connections of Georgian with both.

The potential Basque connection with the Georgians is intriguing ...

we've always been puzzled as to why ancient East Georgia (which is where

the Udi live) was called Iberia, a term now used for Spain, although one

theory was that the Romans simply used the term for "a far-away place,"

which, of course, both Georgia and Spain were vis-à-vis ancient Rome. It

would make sense that people from the Caucasus might want to settle in

the Pyrenees, just as my Scottish ancestors were attracted to the

mountains of North Carolina (many places in Georgia remind me of both

Scotland and North Carolina).

My friend who's been working with the Udi people here actually started

with Irish voyage origin legends and worked his way back through 10

locations in the early ballads to the Caucasus. It will make an

interesting study when he finally gets a chance to write it.

At present, all we have is interesting speculation, so it would be

exciting to get some kind of scientific studies (DNA & linguistic) of

the people here. Of course, because of all the foreign invasions the

genetics of the people here are undoubtedly a vast hodge-podge. I'm told

a significant number of newborns here in Georgia carry the "Mongol spot"

-- which is common among Hungarians as well -- a large blue bruise-like

birthmark in the "small" of the backside below the waist -- an

indication of Asian genetic heritage -- I've noticed most Korean babies

have the same marking, which disappears when they get older. The Mongol

invasion of Georgia was so devastating that something like 90% of the

people were killed during that period, and the population has never

fully recovered in numbers.

B) Anyone hear of the Mongol spot before?????

http://www.questia.com/library/encyclopedia/iberians.jsp

Stalin was so offended by the idea that Basque blood might have mixed with Georgian that he forbade ... ...roughly the eastern part of present-day Georgia. ...

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Posted (edited)

It is true. We are of one ancient civilization. We are otherworldly, advanced and influential. We are powerful psychics and witches, portrayed by the ancients as Gods. Our women are worthy of the worlds veneration, and Their beauty and charm is unlike any else beheld. I alone am glorious enough to be placed in legends and art. We are mighty, though divided, and Our knowledge remains vast and immense. Ramses II, Chi-Yu, and Elizabeth I are among Our most legendary. In the future We will be united once again. Our former glory will be restored, and We will have Our rightful reign over all the land. :mellow:

I remember reading almost all of white-history.com before. It ticked me off really bad. Strange, I can't seem to remember why. :huh:

Edited by Asphodel

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I alone am glorious enough to be placed in legends and art.

?? :wacko: ??

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?? :wacko: ??

It's called BS.

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I recall reading somewhere in some BS Nutcase Site that Since RH factor is high in Basque and some mumbo jumo on Basques being related to Reptilians too.

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I recall reading somewhere in some BS Nutcase Site that Since RH factor is high in Basque and some mumbo jumo on Basques being related to Reptilians too.

All I know is that recent DNA studies prove the British are very closely related to the Basques - basically, they stayed down in the Pyrenees and we decided to go for a walk up the coast and settled in Britain. We're genetically very slightly different from much of the rest of Europe though who are descended from people who moved back into Europe after the ice age, rather than sat it out.

And if there's a genetic connection with Georgia then it must date to earlier in the last ice age - probably prior to 30,000 years ago: ie before the proto Basque / British people were isolated in SW France/N Spain at the height of the last ice age. And that far back we're genetically related to half the planet (including, of course, everyone else in Europe) ....

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Posted (edited)

What about Neanderthals, they were predisposed to red hair weren't they? Apparently they have different DNA too, also there is a link between Cro- Magnon man/Guanches and Basques. Possibly Neanderthals did mate with Cro-Magnon women....

"Rameses II had red hair" - this would fit with an article I already linked in the Seafaring topic and Golden Ages thread titled Evidence for the Ancestors of the Guanches as Founders of Pre Dynastic Egypt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manetho

also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mummies

Edited by weareallsuckers

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What do you think of either the Georgian link

They have a fascinating history...

and are also very near to the underground cities of Turkey

I suspect that there are some in Georgia too...

http://www.georgiaemb.org/DisplayMedia.asp?id=252

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-A...4-04/1082202558

B) Anyone hear of the Mongol spot before?????

http://www.questia.com/library/encyclopedia/iberians.jsp

Stalin was so offended by the idea that Basque blood might have mixed with Georgian that he forbade ... ...roughly the eastern part of present-day Georgia. ...

Hi CS... sorry for the delay in responding, having terrible problems with the internet at the moment...

Anyway, to the point....there was certaily interraction between the Cornish, and devonish, and the Basques. This is provable in genetic distribution of blood types. The Welsh connection is also verifiable, but where I have problems is the Georgian connection. The Basques had very little to trade with, no gold or silver deposits, no iron ore... etc, and their trek would have been overland. This in itself would probably have meant near instant annhilation, the Basque people being comparatively short and ill-equipped.

My own belief, and please remember that this is just my own belief, I think they are direct lineal descendants from Cro -Magnon, of course no-one today would try to prove that, it would be politially incorrect ...

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Hi CS... sorry for the delay in responding, having terrible problems with the internet at the moment...

Anyway, to the point....there was certaily interraction between the Cornish, and devonish, and the Basques. This is provable in genetic distribution of blood types. The Welsh connection is also verifiable, but where I have problems is the Georgian connection. The Basques had very little to trade with, no gold or silver deposits, no iron ore... etc, and their trek would have been overland. This in itself would probably have meant near instant annhilation, the Basque people being comparatively short and ill-equipped.

My own belief, and please remember that this is just my own belief, I think they are direct lineal descendants from Cro -Magnon, of course no-one today would try to prove that, it would be politially incorrect ...

Oh, don't give her the opportunity to sling around the mythic Caucasian/Iberian link again. She heard "Iberian" in reference to an old Alan kingdom and won't let it go; I'm waiting for the inevitable Southern US/ex-Soviet Georgia ancient history link based on no better arguments. After all, the capital of the Southern one is ATLANTa.

--Jaylemurph

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Posted (edited)

Oh, don't give her the opportunity to sling around the mythic Caucasian/Iberian link again. She heard "Iberian" in reference to an old Alan kingdom and won't let it go; I'm waiting for the inevitable Southern US/ex-Soviet Georgia ancient history link based on no better arguments. After all, the capital of the Southern one is ATLANTa.

--Jaylemurph

That is probably why Stalin who was born in Georgia wants to deny any Basquen links...didn't want to be called a neanderthall

http://www.georgiaemb.org/DisplayMedia.asp?id=252

In the first part of the display, "In Search of a Lost Iberia," the curator exhibits the paintings of two Georgians, Mr. Mikeladze, 43, and Vladimir Kandelaki, 63, that are rarely seen in the United States. In the introductory exhibit label, Mr. Zuver underlines his main thesis: Georgians and Basques spring from similar cultural and genetic roots. He writes: "A pre-Indo-European language and the rare Type O and RH negative blood factor are common to both Basques and some Georgians."[

http://rustaveli.tripod.com/mission.html

Furthermore, during the long period of Soviet ideological dictatorship much in the history of Georgian culture has been hushed, distorted, and tabooed. This field of knowledge had been placed under a kind of ban, which regrettably, continues to the present day for it is not so easy to shake oneself free of the effects of the hypnosis of that notorious period. Many issues have been falsified and usurped by Soviet imperial scholarship and subjected to its interests. Unfortunately, Georgian scholars too have come under this influence. I do not want to name them personally; they still do not dare to carry on research along lines that would shed light on these issues. All this was being done with momentous and far-reaching objectives in mind. In this connection, a major campaign was launched against the Georgian scholars Ivane Javakhishvili and Niko Marr. The studies of such major scholars as Wil-helm Humboldt and others in the sphere of the ethnogeny of the Iberi-ans were shelved. This was being done with the purpose of instilling an inferiority complex in the Georgian nation. Soviet scholarship, particularly the classics of Marxism-Leninism founded a theory (see Stalin's theory in this connection) according to which the Georgian nation allegedly took shape in the nineteenth century; prior to the indicated period - this theory would have us believe - it was neither a nation nor did it exist; the advent of capitalism in Georgia in the past century determined

according to this theory, the development of the Georgian people into a nation. This is a Marxist theory which prevails to the present day and which some of our scholars cannot get rid of, continuing to labor under it. All this had far-reaching implications.

What is the actual situation with regard to the Georgian ethnogeny? In the twentieth century, the leading Georgian scholars Acad. Ivane Javakhishvili and N. Marr made a study of the genetic roots of the Georgian nation, but their conclusions were bitterly opposed by orthodox Soviet scholarship. At the same time, as noted above, the studies, of the great German scholar Wilhelm Humboldt were passed over in silence. Wherein lay the essence of these studies, why have they been taboo to the present day, and why is modern ethnological and linguistic research not developing in this direction?

To begin with, Humboldt's research into the Basque language and the ancient population of the Iberian peninsula led him to the conclusion that the primary, autochthonous population of Southern Europe, viz. the Iberian peninsula, Italy, and the Mediterranean islands, was Iberian. This population was called proto-Iberian, the later European population stemming from it. The term Mediterranean race (or people) is also used in scholarship. In order to refer to the people of the Caucasian race use is also made of the terms palaeo-Caucasian or ancient Caucasian race and ancient-Mediterranean race, the terms being interchangeable.

Further, Marr studied the language of the Sumerians, the ancient Iberian tribes of Asia Minor and Mesopotamia, while the eminent Georgian scholar Mikheil Tsereteli re-searched the genetic relationship of Sumerian and modern Georgian.

http://www.mega.nu/protolanguage/comparison.BASQUE.4.htm

A reassessment of Basque is long overdue. As we will see in the forthcoming PL-IE-Sumerian essay, Basque shows such close relationships with this language, that the basal component of the Sumerian culture (sheep-herders) must be considered ethnically Basque.

To consider Basque an isolate when genetically, Basques are practically indistinguishable from other Europeans, and to deny the connection with Sumer is to deprive the Basques of their proud heritage.

Edited by crystal sage

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Posted (edited)

Wow ... B) ..this is interesting...

http://rustaveli.tripod.com/mission.html

You are aware of the existence of the notion of Semitic peoples and languages, as well as of Hamitic peoples related to ancient Egypt, and generally Africa. There is also the Japhetie race. The three Biblical brothers symbolically reflect branches of humankind, viz. Noah reflects the Atlantic or pre-Flood humanity i.e. the developmental stage of mankind before Atlantis was swallowed up by the sea, while his children were representatives of the post-Atlantis human race. Japhetic is one of their branches and incidentally, the Japheth of the Old Testament is re-lated to the Iapetus of ancient Greek mythology. It is not fortuitous that Iapetus was Prometheus' father; Japheth is identical to Iapetus, as is also the planet Jupiter and Jupiter's race, white race. As is known, in esoterism the races are related to the planets: the White race to Jupiter, the Black to Mercury, the Red to Venus, and the Yellow or Mongolian to Mars. The first substrate of Jupiter's race is precisely this Japhetic, proto-European or proto-Iberian mankind. This is how the mission of the proto-European, palaeo-Caucasian and Mediterranean people is linked to that of Jupiter's race. So much for the Classical, pagan period.

Now apropos of the Christian period. The advent of Christianity in Georgia is connected with the opening centuries of our era. The presence of two Apostles Andrew and Simon the Cananaian - in Georgia is not accidental; these were the first and the last apostles. Andrew was the first called, while Simon was the last to come to Christ, this being the symbol of their representing the alpha and omega; i.e. the beginning and the end. What part did the Kartvelian peoples play in the development of Christianity, in particular of Christianity propounded by the Archangel Michael, and why is the land called Georgia?

As you know, the Archangel Michael had prototypes in the Classical, i.e. pre-Christian, period. This was a being that appeared in the shape of gods protecting fertility, as gods of the weather or thunderstorms, such as Indra in ancient India, Marduk in the Mesopotamian world, Tarhu in the palaeo-Caucasian world - a panther skin god of thunderstorm. In caves, this god was always depicted as attired in the panther's skin. The panther skin is an attribute of a being known in antiquity under the name of Indra, Marduk, Tarhu, and in the Christian period as Michael and Saint George. Saint George is the earthly aspect of Michael. Michael represents the spiritual world, i.e. the mental aspect, whereas St. George is Michael's aspect on the historical plane, i.e. in the physical world. But how did the name George become linked to our country?

..also part of the lecture...../article...

In his work these people are compared symbolically to Lazarus. It may be said that here is implied not only Georgia but the entire Kartvelian ethnos; to this is related that proto-Georgian or proto-Iberian world which extended from the Iberian Peninsula to India, and - as hypothesized by N. Marr and H. Johnstone - there existed a primordial Basque-Caucasian-Dravidian language - older than the Hamitic parent Language, and the basis of all languages, this being a glottogonic or language-forming phenomenon; it was the primary language of the priests, and in general, the beginning of languages.

Such is Marr's theory, for which Stalin rebuked him; Marr's theory was anathematized because it gave an objective interpretation of the prehistoric period and the origin of the Georgian language. Our national movement too has some criticism to level against Marr. True, he did make anti-Georgian statements dictated by political considerations of the day, but his elucidation of the prehistoric period of development of the Georgian language and the Georgian people was very objective and profound. That is why he was denounced in Soviet scholarship under Stalin's leadership.

http://minaev.blogspot.com/2008/01/january...an-history.html

..or various other sites...

he Secret File of Joseph Stalin: A Hidden Life - Google Books Result

by Roman Brackman - 2001 - Biography & Autobiography - 466 pages

Nevertheless, in his articles Stalin furiously attacked Marr, castigating the ... Stalin was also disturbed by another linguistic theory, that the Basques, ...

books.google.com.au/books?isbn=0714650501...

JSTOR: The Recent Conflict in Soviet Linguistics

Once the superstructural conception of language is denied, as it is by Stalin, Marr's whole theory collapses. Stalin's main objection to considering ...

links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0097-8507(195107%2F09)27%3A3%3C281%3ATRCISL%3E2.0.CO%3B2-Q - Similar pages

JSTOR: Vvedenie v azykoznanie

Neither Marr nor Stalin had raised the problem of descriptive linguistics .... Yet Cikobava considers the Basque- Caucasian link an established fact (219), ...

links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0097-8507(195410%2F12)30%3A4%3C579%3AVVA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-O - Similar pages

More results from links.jstor.org »

[PPT]

The History of a Myth: Marr and Marrism

File Format: Microsoft Powerpoint - View as HTML

Marr tries to establish international Basque institute, but fails and turns from Western science ... especially for the Stalinist cult of personality. ...

www.unc.edu/~lajanda/slav167marr.ppt - Similar pages

Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilization - Google Books Result

by Martin Bernal - 1991 - Greece

Marr, who was born in Georgia in 1865, maintained that one linguistic super-family contained Indo-European, the Caucasian languages and Basque. ...

books.google.com.au/books?isbn=0813536553...

Georgia

It should also be noted, that some of the famed researchers (Humboldt, Beaudrimon, Filiponi, Marr and others), consider the Basques (descendants of the ...

Edited by crystal sage

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