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Plagues of Exodus


airika

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26 members have voted

  1. 1. Plagues of Exodus natural, or miraculous?

    • Natural Occurences
      14
    • Wrath of God
      7
    • A little of both
      5


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I have heard many people use the Plauges of Exodus, as an example of "God's Wrath". I feel that all of these can be explained by either gross exaggerations, or natural occurrences. I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

The Plagues of Exodus

The Plague of Blood

The Plague of Frogs

The Plague of Gnats

The Plague of Flies

The Plague on Livestock

The Plague of Boils

The Plague of Hail

The Plague of Locusts

The Plague of Darkness

Natural Explanations

As noted above, some science writers and Bible researchers have suggested that the plagues were passed-down accounts of ordinary natural disasters, and not supernatural miracles. Natural explanations have been suggested for most of the phenomena:

1.

(plague 1—water turned into blood, fish died)

The redness in the Nile could have actually been pollution caused by volcanic activity, which, due to the color of Nile silt, could make the Nile turn blood red, and would also render it undrinkable. Heavy rains in the red-soiled area of Lake Victoria could have caused reddened water to wash downstream.

Alternatively, a red toxic algal bloom (red tide) could have produced large quantities of toxins that would kill fish.

Earthquakes could have caused a limnic eruption the same way it happened at Lake Nyos

(plague 2—frogs) Any blight on the water that killed fish also would have caused frogs to leave the river and, probably, die.

(plagues 3 and 4—biting insects and flies) The lack of frogs in the river would have let insect populations, normally kept in check by the frogs, increase massively.

(plagues 5 and 6— livestock disease and boils) There are biting flies in the region which transmit livestock diseases; a sudden increase in their number could spark epidemics.

I would also like to point out during the hail storms, they brought the livestock in. (I thought they were all dead) :hmm:

(plague 7—hail) Volcanic activity not only brings with it ash, but brimstone, and also alters the weather system, occasionally producing hail. Hail could also have occurred as a completely independent natural weather event.

(plague 8—locusts) The weight of hail will destroy most crops, leaving several insects and other animals without a normal food source. The remaining crops therefore would become targeted heavily, and thus be destroyed by swarms of locusts which would otherwise be distributed rather thinly. Or the locusts could have increased due to a lack of predators. Even without these explanations, swarms of locusts are not uncommon today.

(plague 9—darkness) There could be several causes for unusual darkness: a solar eclipse, a sandstorm, volcanic ash, or simply swarms of locusts large enough to block out the sun.

(plague 10—death of the firstborn)

If the last plague indeed selectively tended to affect the firstborn, it could be due to food polluted during the time of darkness, either by locusts or by the black mold Cladosporium. When people emerged after the darkness, the firstborn would be given priority, as was usual, and would consequently be more likely to be affected by any toxin or disease carried by the food.

The word we know as "firstborn" may have meant the higher social class rather than literally the eldest sons, but the same argument applies.

Plagues of Exodus

Again I ask, are the Plagues of Exodus just a coincidental string of natural occurences? Or the "Wrath of an angry God"?

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I think its a little of both to be honest. I think God intervenes with nature to cause things like that to happen but thats just my opinion....I have no clue heh

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No different then if I said the sinking of the greek city of Helike was the work of Zues... and someone will then state that it was really just major earthquake.

Or if I'd say that Pompii was destroyed by the gods... and someone will then state that it was just the volcano's time to erupt.

Personaly though, it's nature at it's own will and ways.

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No different then if I said the sinking of the greek city of Helike was the work of Zues... and someone will then state that it was really just major earthquake.

Or if I'd say that Pompii was destroyed by the gods... and someone will then state that it was just the volcano's time to erupt.

Personaly though, it's nature at it's own will and ways.

I absolutely have to agree. I feel that in mythology, when something would happen, that other's didn't have a scientific explanation for, they blamed God, a god, or gods. (And yet there's still no evidence that any of the above exist)

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I selected a little of both. Exodus is my favourite book in the bible to read because of all the drama :P.

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I voted natural occurences, because there is a great deal of evidence that supports it being natural. Even if there is a God, why would he punish people to prove a point to the pharoah! How could he take sides like that, which he seems to do so much in the OT. I've read that most of these plagues could occur due to a volcanic eruption, and tectonic activity. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that a huge volcanic eruption occurred on the Greek Island of Santorini around 1500 BC, which fits in with the timeline.

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I wonder, has any account in the Egyptian archive been found that record the alleged plagues god set against Egypt, in Exodus?Gods murder of first born children, water turned into blood, swarms of locusts, etc...?

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I wonder, has any account in the Egyptian archive been found that record the alleged plagues god set against Egypt, in Exodus?Gods murder of first born children, water turned into blood, swarms of locusts, etc...?

"There is no archaeological evidence for the plagues that are accepted by archaeologists without a predisposition to believe the stories.

There is archaeological material that some Christian archaeologists, such as William F. Albright, have considered historical evidence of the Ten Plagues; for example, an ancient water-trough found in El Arish bears hieroglyphic markings detailing a period of darkness. Albright, and other Christian archaeologists have claimed that such evidence, as well as careful study of the areas ostensibly traveled by the Israelites after the Exodus, make discounting the biblical account untenable. However, their arguments have not persuaded many archaeologists who do not initially assume the Biblical account is accurate.

The Egyptian Ipuwer papyrus describes a series of calamities befalling Egypt, including a river turned to blood, men behaving as wild ibises, and the land generally turned upside down. However, this is usually thought to describe a general and long term ecological disaster lasting for a period of decades, such as that which destroyed the Old Kingdom. The document is usually dated to the end of the Middle Kingdom, or more rarely, to its beginning, fitting the Old Kingdom destruction, but in both cases long before the usual theorized dates for the Exodus.

Immanuel Velikovsky decided that the Egyptian papyrus did, in fact, describe the events of Exodus, along with the major natural catastrophes that he thought preceded it; in his opinion it was the conventional chronologies of Egypt that were wrong by several hundred years. His theory has never gained credibility among Egyptologists, not even those who are evangelical Christians such as Kenneth Kitchen."

(see the above link)

Edited by airika
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I voted natural occurences, because there is a great deal of evidence that supports it being natural. Even if there is a God, why would he punish people to prove a point to the pharoah! How could he take sides like that, which he seems to do so much in the OT. I've read that most of these plagues could occur due to a volcanic eruption, and tectonic activity. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that a huge volcanic eruption occurred on the Greek Island of Santorini around 1500 BC, which fits in with the timeline.

Great points my dear. Either one, volcanic, or tectonic, could prove to have caused all of this destruction. And yes, exactly, WHY would God punish all Egyptians, just because he's mad at the Pharoah, when the bible states clearly that God is the one that "hardened his heart".

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I have heard many people use the Plauges of Exodus, as an example of "God's Wrath". I feel that all of these can be explained by either gross exaggerations, or natural occurrences. I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

My first thought is that you left out the option I would have voted for, that these plagues never even took place.

The Plagues of Exodus

The Plague of Blood

The Plague of Frogs

The Plague of Gnats

The Plague of Flies

The Plague on Livestock

The Plague of Boils

The Plague of Hail

The Plague of Locusts

The Plague of Darkness

plague 1—water turned into blood, fish died)

The redness in the Nile could have actually been pollution caused by volcanic activity, which, due to the color of Nile silt, could make the Nile turn blood red, and would also render it undrinkable. Heavy rains in the red-soiled area of Lake Victoria could have caused reddened water to wash downstream.

Alternatively, a red toxic algal bloom (red tide) could have produced large quantities of toxins that would kill fish.

Earthquakes could have caused a limnic eruption the same way it happened at Lake Nyos

Agreed. Since this has happened in recent history, no reason to think it hasn't happened many times before.

(plague 2—frogs) Any blight on the water that killed fish also would have caused frogs to leave the river and, probably, die.

They could also easily have been overpopulated as well, since the fish eat the frogs and frog eggs.

(plagues 3 and 4—biting insects and flies) The lack of frogs in the river would have let insect populations, normally kept in check by the frogs, increase massively.
Not to mention all the nice dead fish laying around for the insects to eat and lay their eggs in.

(plagues 5 and 6— livestock disease and boils) There are biting flies in the region which transmit livestock diseases; a sudden increase in their number could spark epidemics.
No question about it.

(plague 7—hail) Volcanic activity not only brings with it ash, but brimstone, and also alters the weather system, occasionally producing hail. Hail could also have occurred as a completely independent natural weather event.

Agreed.

(plague 8—locusts) The weight of hail will destroy most crops, leaving several insects and other animals without a normal food source. The remaining crops therefore would become targeted heavily, and thus be destroyed by swarms of locusts which would otherwise be distributed rather thinly. Or the locusts could have increased due to a lack of predators. Even without these explanations, swarms of locusts are not uncommon today.

A "normal" swarm would do the trick nicely without needing any additional reasons for it to be there. The Locust Plague is an ongoing plague even today. Wonder who the Egyptians are supposed to "let go" nowadays in order to make these dern locusts stop their plagueing?

(plague 9—darkness) There could be several causes for unusual darkness: a solar eclipse, a sandstorm, volcanic ash, or simply swarms of locusts large enough to block out the sun.

I'll vote for volcanic ash/eclipse. Both of these scared the bejeesus out of the early cultures. That's probably why it was included in the Exodus myth.

(plague 10—death of the firstborn)

If the last plague indeed selectively tended to affect the firstborn, it could be due to food polluted during the time of darkness, either by locusts or by the black mold Cladosporium. When people emerged after the darkness, the firstborn would be given priority, as was usual, and would consequently be more likely to be affected by any toxin or disease carried by the food.

The word we know as "firstborn" may have meant the higher social class rather than literally the eldest sons, but the same argument applies.

The firstborn were the most important. The priests who fabricated the Exodus fairytale threw this one in because they realized that all the other plagues the pretended happened to the Egyptians in their tale could be explained naturally. It was the death of the firstborns that caused Pharoah to change his mind and "let those people go..." according to the tale, and it was because the selectivity of this last plague convinced Pharoah (and is supposed to similarly convince us) that there had to be some kind of Divine intervention involved. IOW, didn't happen.

Again I ask, are the Plagues of Exodus just a coincidental string of natural occurences? Or the "Wrath of an angry God"?

Neither. They are a collection of all the plagues the Hebrew priests could think of to throw into one fictionalized story about where they came from. As such, they were likely based on actual plagues known to the ancient people of the area, it's just that these things didn't all happen at once to the same group of people just because they wouldn't release some slaves who weren't even in Egypt at the time. They no doubt had happened at different times to different people, and there are other, non-Jewish, stories that indicate similar plagues happening to other people for other, similar reasons - such as angering the Gods and whatnot.

Just my (nonhumble) opinion.

Harte

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I think its a little of both to be honest. I think God intervenes with nature to cause things like that to happen but thats just my opinion....I have no clue heh

i'm going to have to go with hairston on this one...

the major things that i NEVER see considered that seem like they should be important questions are:

how close were these events together?

how close do they have to be before it leaves the possibility of natural occurance?

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Neither. They are a collection of all the plagues the Hebrew priests could think of to throw into one fictionalized story about where they came from. As such, they were likely based on actual plagues known to the ancient people of the area, it's just that these things didn't all happen at once to the same group of people just because they wouldn't release some slaves who weren't even in Egypt at the time. They no doubt had happened at different times to different people, and there are other, non-Jewish, stories that indicate similar plagues happening to other people for other, similar reasons - such as angering the Gods and whatnot.

Just my (nonhumble) opinion.

Harte

LOL....and a welcome opinion at that my dear! That is absolutely another possibility that I didn't think of. *Makes mental note to consult Harte first next time :blush: *

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air, this may be abit off topic, but I can't help but wonder why would anyone even consider beiliveing in a diety that had anger issues that would dream up the worst ways to terrorize folks, as a display of his displeasure and call it love..I mean no disresepct to your thread .... i can't get beyond t, the chat to even consider giving this sort of 'being' the time of day....It makes me so sad that this is the diety that is emulated/worshipped? :cry: my gosh this diety needs a hug, and some anger managment classes....

Edited by Supra Sheri
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I have heard many people use the Plauges of Exodus, as an example of "God's Wrath". I feel that all of these can be explained by either gross exaggerations, or natural occurrences. I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

The Plagues of Exodus

The Plague of Blood

The Plague of Frogs

The Plague of Gnats

The Plague of Flies

The Plague on Livestock

The Plague of Boils

The Plague of Hail

The Plague of Locusts

The Plague of Darkness

((plague 9—darkness) There could be several causes for unusual darkness: a solar eclipse, a sandstorm, volcanic ash, or simply swarms of locusts large enough to block out the sun.

(plague 10—death of the firstborn)

If the last plague indeed selectively tended to affect the firstborn, it could be due to food polluted during the time of darkness, either by locusts or by the black mold Cladosporium. When people emerged after the darkness, the firstborn would be given priority, as was usual, and would consequently be more likely to be affected by any toxin or disease carried by the food.

The word we know as "firstborn" may have meant the higher social class rather than literally the eldest sons, but the same argument applies.

Plagues of Exodus

Again I ask, are the Plagues of Exodus just a coincidental string of natural occurences? Or the "Wrath of an angry God"?

When i 1st read the story of Moses..and how God went to such desperate measures to convince a king to let a few people go..I thought it was madness and evil

One of which was killing of all the 1st born lil children WTF?? Why would God need to do this just to convince some idiot to let a few people free??

The allmighty God picks up a copy cat killing spree and kills 1st borns...who where innocent..but hey he wanted to convince the king to let some others wonder the desert for 40 years WTF??

Killing first born...heck this was going on when Moses was just a boy ...even when Jesus was just a baby...kill all 1st born...then God does it too...was it a bibical trend??

And I am supposed to believe bibles stories like this....................WHY?? :hmm:

God as a mindless killer...killing all the lil first borns to prove a stuipid point................I refuse to believe God would do this

screw that crap

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:cry: my gosh this diety needs a hug, and some anger managment classes....

:lol::w00t::lol: I have to agree. (I personally feel that God, is a mythological manifestation, used to control the masses.)

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Yeaaa Sheri darn straight...someone should hand God an anger managment booklet..to help him on his way...God you do not need to kill the 1st born..you dont need to send rotten plagues just to make a point.................there are better ways God..here have a -->((hug))) and next time you want to write out a bunch of commandments rules don't give it to the idiot that uses them to kill in your name...it gives you a bad rep God...oh and incase the world ends and you descide to create a NEW world...prevent man from writing bulls**t stories protraying your name...now..take 2 of these --> () () and call me in the morning.....WARNING may cause drowsiness dont operate any heavey machinery while taking these and dont mix with the red wine....not being a stool pigeon or anything BUT - your son keeps locked up in his mini bar...ohh yes......he sure does..he tells you its water..but he soon turns it into red wine...tsk tsk!! :unsure2::w00t:

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Yeaaa Sheri darn straight...someone should hand God an anger managment booklet..to help him on his way...God you do not need to kill the 1st born..you dont need to send rotten plagues just to make a point.................there are better ways God..here have a -->((hug))) and next time you want to write out a bunch of commandments rules don't give it to the idiot that uses them to kill in your name...it gives you a bad rep God...oh and incase the world ends and you descide to create a NEW world...prevent man from writing bulls**t stories protraying your name...now..take 2 of these --> () () and call me in the morning.....WARNING may cause drowsiness dont operate any heavey machinery while taking these and dont mix with the red wine....not being a stool pigeon or anything BUT - your son keeps locked up in his mini bar...ohh yes......he sure does..he tells you its water..but he soon turns it into red wine...tsk tsk!! :unsure2::w00t:

The kids thing really concerns me, Hitler and god seem to be cast from the same mold....IMO

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The kids thing really concerns me, Hitler and god seem to be cast from the same mold....IMO

There are many other things about the bible that concern me, and taking all of them into concideration, it seems as though he's worse then Hitler. :hmm:

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air, this may be abit off topic, but I can't help but wonder why would anyone even consider beiliveing in a diety that had anger issues that would dream up the worst ways to terrorize folks, as a display of his displeasure and call it love..I mean no disresepct to your thread .... i can't get beyond t, the chat to even consider giving this sort of 'being' the time of day....It makes me so sad that this is the diety that is emulated/worshipped? :cry: my gosh this diety needs a hug, and some anger managment classes....

I agree Sheri. Not to mention killing all but the firstborn males. hmmmm.... The OT God does need some anger management!

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The kids thing really concerns me, Hitler and god seem to be cast from the same mold....IMO

Yeaa cuz it was a hitler like man that wrote this crap..protraying God to be a killer

So if man protrays God that way...I feel sorry for those that do love and feel the need to defend thier bible...I@ve lost count how many chrsitians have done this..all give different ipions as to why we shouldt look too much into it..you gotta hand it to them for defending it

BUT see they say DON'T look too much into the harsh doings of God............yes I can see this........A LOT

BUT expect us to look hard into the GOOD things...picking and choosing. SING --- .ladeedaa...all things bright and beautiful..all creatures great and small..lets all look at the goodness the lord has done it all la la la we turn blind eyes to the harsh stuff, we don't see that as true...so we look right at the ladedaa stuff to us it makes God good ^_^

HA I just made that up :w00t:

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You should have included "None of the above", since there is no mention in Egyptian records (or any other nation's records) of these plagues. They are only mentioned in a book of mythology that wasn't written until the 6th century BCE. :yes:

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girls and Sis, i too have to go with god maybe worse....How interesting mako yet again , historically sepaking no such thing or mention, certainly frogs or locust would get some air play.....why why why do so many beleive this I can't figure it out....It seems cut and dry to me...

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Thank you for the information and link Airika. :)

air, this may be abit off topic, but I can't help but wonder why would anyone even consider beiliveing in a diety that had anger issues that would dream up the worst ways to terrorize folks, as a display of his displeasure and call it love..I mean no disresepct to your thread .... i can't get beyond t, the chat to even consider giving this sort of 'being' the time of day....It makes me so sad that this is the diety that is emulated/worshipped? :cry: my gosh this diety needs a hug, and some anger managment classes....

:lol: I always remember the Moses myth when I read another pro-population article, related to activist agendas claiming god is pro-life even going so far as to consider stem cells sacred. Yeah and to bad for those Egyptian males! In utero and out. But god is pro-life!

Yeah, I can read that. Page after page after page....

I don't understand how the image of god can be one of benevolence, when the pro-active image is one of intolerance and murderous violence. And it is murder, by definition. Murder (first degree)-The killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation ...

And then, when people commit violent acts. Kill gays, assault women, claiming it's by gods ordinance they do such grievous offense, those that claim to follow the same god say that's not their god telling those people that! Context! Indeed. :mellow:

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You should have included "None of the above", since there is no mention in Egyptian records (or any other nation's records) of these plagues. They are only mentioned in a book of mythology that wasn't written until the 6th century BCE. :yes:

Yes....I know...Harte pointed that out to me earlier :blush: I hope that everyone can forgive me.

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