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Talking to Infinity

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Defense,ego, subjectivity and horde

Illyrius

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Do we really have a need to know or a need to prove our points of view? What role plays ego, vanity and narcissism in this light?

I think that we have a need to know. Knowledge is power, but more important than knowledge is the power gained by confirmation of our view of reality. Thus we have a horde mentality, you know, when individuals like to make clans. It is not anything unusual, it gives a sense of security, acceptance and power. Truth is hard to grasp, on the other hand since it is hard to grasp a much easier shortcut to feeling of stability security and power is through associating with fellow clan members and confirming your own points. Everybody likes it, myself included.

So how do we grow? If everybody would just confirm everything you say that would be pretty dull. So we need a tension, but the tension comes naturally since there are no two individuals with exactly the same view of reality, and when a view of reality is challenged a defense mechanism starts. Here we have one intersting thing. We may divide people here. There are those who like logic and truth and seeking the truth the hard way, and then there are those who stick with the clan and just fogging things evading the truth. Ego, vanitiy and narcissism is satisfied. The beast is fed. The problem is that those who seek harder rarely know if they are right. They doubt themselves, groving insecure because no one supports them since they break the dogma of the clan and the ego suffers. So what is better?



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A rather interesting thought to try and comprehend. Perhaps we as the human race will never truly know the answers to such questions. 

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MauriOra

Posted (edited)

Firstly Mr Argon, this is Well Thought out, and Your Mind's Process Involved is a Marvel!!

My take on the questions or the Quest in Life, is to Be Courageous, it takes Courage to * Be Thy Self *, once Mastered through the Duality and the Nature within then, it is Quite Simple.. The Clan Mentality is Easy to be Drawn to, because of strength in Numbers, though its most likely Residual, such as Like attracts Like.. You swarm to the same, familiar Harmonic Vibration Frequency..The Driving Force behind always Searching for the Who's, What's, Where's, How's, When's and Why's of life,  is A Deeper Knowing that there "Must Be More" than THIS!! . And There Is... I am One Soul, I walk, talk, speak,listen, learn, teach, SHARE, give, receive, LOVE, and PEACE, WRATH and JUSTICE.. I Stand in My Own because I Know The Answers to the Quest I Am In...and I must Give Thanks to My Teachers, Nature,Sun,Moon and the Stars...and to Love, Strength and Understanding.. This Power and Way of Living is in All of Us.... To Start off, Start peeling back the Societal Mainstream Categories, or Boxes, that our Minds thought, then Beliefs set, and lastly, Actions accomplished In the Running of Our Lives.. Change is Made through changing the thought,which in turn, changes the Set belief, and **MAGICALLY** THE ACTION IS CHANGED.... That is the Simplistic Way.. The Material realm makes things Complicated and Confusing... Peace to you and yours Sir xOx...

Edited by MauriOra
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'Do we really have a need to know' probably not if you are talking about ego and bolstering it.  However this is not the only reason operating - not in my case anyway!  I have a need to know about things since I am interested in the truth.  Yes I am on a forum to put forward my opinions BUT I am open minded and, as such, am prepared to moderate/change my stance in the light of better knowledge on the subject!   It's very clear when someone is pushing their agenda and not acknowledging/addressing evidence contradicting this.  Trump supporters are notorious for this and remind me of head in the sand mentality i.e. in denial.  They share the stubborn/myopic trait of their chosen one!

To the question of do we need to 'prove our points of view' - I guess that depends how much we have invested in it.  On a forum it can be due to saving face, not being humiliated or easily/blatantly pointing out the flaws in someone's viewpoint. I always bear in mind that it's not a private conversation but one that is read by many so can be influential.  Of course it can just be point scoring (ego) but it is also nice to see that our views are supported/popular....it gives a sense of being on the 'right' track as I am sure you are familiar with also!

I will confess that I am on a bit of mission to redress the situation where negative mindsets try to present their view as a fact!  Most people realise we can choose our reactions e.g. what we focus on.  

"It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see"  (Henry D. Thoreau)

Edited by sees
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Illyrius

Posted (edited)

On 02. 12. 2017. at 0:27 PM, sees said:

I always bear in mind that it's not a private conversation but one that is read by many so can be influential.  Of course it can just be point scoring (ego) but it is also nice to see that our views are supported/popular....it gives a sense of being on the 'right' track as I am sure you are familiar with also!

Yes, i agree. It is nice to gain support as i already explained - only, a right track.. heh.. wouldn't put it that way. From my personal perspective so far on this forum (and from my subjective point of view) i see many quality posters from opposite point of view gain much less points than very mediocre ones. horde is never the merit of quality, it is not interested in a truth but in a mere support of prefered worldview. but i am surely in a need of support from people i find as quality posters. it does really make me happy. also i am not afraid to be wrong sometimes. i admited a few mistakes when faced clearly with them. haven't seen that attitude around here from anyone else so far. and i made a great deal of pointing at logical fallacies (some of them equal to 1+1=4) - but no - only denial, and grotesque fogging.

Edited by Mr. Argon
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Illyrius

Posted (edited)

On 02. 12. 2017. at 0:27 PM, sees said:

"It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see"

if you look at the man harming an animal and see only the beauty of his punches - maybe the thing that you subjectively see is not really what matters but the objective reality of the whole scene you are looking at. (a mild example)

sorry this is not meant as a sharp critique but you can't just close your eyes to wrong things and look only at the bright side of life. i agree though that it is fine to see something positive even in bad things. and not only fine - but quite important.

Edited by Mr. Argon
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MauriOra

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Mr. Argon said:

if you look at the man harming an animal and see only the beauty of his punches - maybe the thing that you subjectively see is not really what matters but the objective reality of the whole scene you are looking at. (a mild example)

sorry this is not meant as a sharp critique but you can't just close your eyes to wrong things and look only at the bright side of life. i agree though that it is fine to see something positive even in bad things. and not only fine - but quite important.

TinoPai EhoaMa, Greetings Mr Argon..

I comprehend both views, Yours and Our Lovely Friend SEES. Many People, have looked at what's going on Around them, and Seen Good and not so Good. When the not so Good is looked at, it is seen with indifference and can be Stigmatized, and put in a category of Do We Help?We Won't Help?.. According to the Station of Your Worth in Society's Eyes.. If your a terrorist in Society's eyes then well ah screw you, if your a prostitute, you kinda deserved it whore, but if your an upstanding citizen, then you'll get any amount of Sympathy's.. This is Wrong on Every Level.. People are Alive, not Trains at a STATION. We not only need to, SEE, we Must also, Hear, Feel and Act. In Good Conscience.. Towards Humanity as a Whole..

Edited by MauriOra
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16 minutes ago, MauriOra said:

TinoPai EhoaMa, Greetings Mr Argon..

I comprehend both views, Yours and Our Lovely Friend SEES. Many People, have looked at what's going on Around them, and Seen Good and not so Good. When the not so Good is looked at, it is seen with indifference and can be Stigmatized, and put in a category of Do We Help?We Won't Help?.. According to the Station of Your Worth in Society's Eyes.. If your a terrorist in Society's eyes then well ah screw you, if your a prostitute, you kinda deserved it whore, but if your and upstanding citizen, then you'll get any amount of Sympathy's.. This is Wrong on Every Level.. People are Alive, not Trains at a STATION. We not only need to, SEE, we also Must, Hear, Feel and Act. In Good Conscience.. Towards Humanity as a Whole..

OK.

Maybe i am too hard sometimes. Sorry. Damn. Nvm.

Thanks, Sees is OK, of course, so if i said something wrong, sorry.

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MauriOra

Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said:

OK.

Maybe i am too hard sometimes. Sorry. Damn. Nvm.

Thanks, Sees is OK, of course, so if i said something wrong, sorry.

You Said Right Mr Argon. I just added my Say.... Kei te Pai EhoaMa, It is OK..

Edited by MauriOra
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7 hours ago, Mr. Argon said:

if you look at the man harming an animal and see only the beauty of his punches - maybe the thing that you subjectively see is not really what matters but the objective reality of the whole scene you are looking at. (a mild example)

sorry this is not meant as a sharp critique but you can't just close your eyes to wrong things and look only at the bright side of life. i agree though that it is fine to see something positive even in bad things. and not only fine - but quite important.

Your interpetration is an abuse of the intention of the quote. It's about perspective/mindset.  I am a realist so can look life directly in the eye.  Using the quote correctly, given your example, i.e. seeing a man harm an animal doesn't mean being deluded.  It could mean seeing the bigger picture.  Understanding why the man is doing this - having insight into his character/malfunctioning (but obviously NOT excusing it!) There is so much injustice and suffering in the world.  If I were to focus on this I would hardly be able to get out of bed.  So, I do what I can on issues that I feel I can influence and then try to not get weighed down with it all.  Balance/perspective is important.  I stave against becoming bitter or overly negative....there is enough of that in the world. 

We have choice in how we react to the cards that life deals us....THIS is the area we can most be at the steering wheel.  Why give yourself a hard time when this is understood and experienced?

Edited by sees
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18 minutes ago, sees said:

Your interpetration is an abuse of the intention of the quote. It's about perspective/mindset.  I am a realist so can look life directly in the eye.  Using the quote correctly, given your example, i.e. seeing a man harm an animal doesn't mean being deluded.  It could mean seeing the bigger picture.  Understanding why the man is doing this - having insight into his character/malfunctioning (but obviously NOT excusing it!) There is so much injustice and suffering in the world.  If I were to focus on this I would hardly be able to get out of bed.  So, I do what I can on issues that I feel I can influence and then try to not get weighed down with it all.  Balance/perspective is important.  I stave against becoming bitter or overly negative....there is enough of that in the world. 

We have choice in how we react to the cards that life deals us....THIS is the area we can most be at the steering wheel.  Why give yourself a hard time when this is understood and experienced?

Well Said My Friend..  well said!

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16 hours ago, Mr. Argon said:

Yes, i agree. It is nice to gain support as i already explained - only, a right track.. heh.. wouldn't put it that way. From my personal perspective so far on this forum (and from my subjective point of view) i see many quality posters from opposite point of view gain much less points than very mediocre ones. horde is never the merit of quality, it is not interested in a truth but in a mere support of prefered worldview. but i am surely in a need of support from people i find as quality posters. it does really make me happy. also i am not afraid to be wrong sometimes. i admited a few mistakes when faced clearly with them. haven't seen that attitude around here from anyone else so far. and i made a great deal of pointing at logical fallacies (some of them equal to 1+1=4) - but no - only denial, and grotesque fogging.

*Edited to remove drama*

I appreciate that some experiences benefit from being questioned but it is HOW this is done that's important.

I also have no problem admitting when I have realised that I have been wrong (as can be readily seen - you must have missed these posts!  There are here!)  My ego is in check and my allegiance is to the truth.

 

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Fine, since i am abuser of truth i am retiring from this conversation. Curtains down folks.

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The most seriuos blow i can recieve is to be called abuser of truth. Maybe you are right. I don't wish to participate anymore.

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28 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said:

Fine, since i am abuser of truth i am retiring from this conversation. Curtains down folks.

Wow....I did not mean to offend you but show had you misunderstood the quote.  Please try to understand.

I did not say you abused the truth - why are you twisting my words? A quote is just a quote, i.e. not necessarily the truth anyway.

Here is what I said

'Your interpretration is an abuse of the intention of the quote'   "It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see"  (Henry D. Thoreau)

Maybe it was unintentional (I accept that) but you seemed to not understand the quote by your example.

The quote is about levels of perception....you applied it to an example that lacked ANY perception, i.e. to think someone could find beauty in an animal being harmed is deluded.  I won't labour the point since you have taken a victim's stance so maybe can't see what I am saying here.

Edited by sees
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Just now, sees said:

Wow....I did not mean to offend you but show had you misunderstood the quote.  Please try to understand.

I cant at the moment i am deeply hurt. sorry. maybe later.

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Just now, Mr. Argon said:

I cant at the moment i am deeply hurt. sorry. maybe later.

I'm so sorry...you misunderstand me...I meant no harm at all (which you would know if you knew me).  I hope you can read it as intended later. 

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it's ok. you don't have to be sorry. it's my problem, my sensitivity - not yours. everything ok.

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Illyrius

Posted (edited)

i hate victim mentality btw. i am no sort of a victim. if i sometimes feel like it i hold it up for myself . i mean the reasons for that. i only genuinely said i am hurt. hurt is subjective. it is my problem. i am not a victim. though that sort of mentality has been instilled into my system so to speak - i try to resist it.

Edited by Mr. Argon
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On 02. 12. 2017. at 3:16 AM, MauriOra said:

Firstly Mr Argon, this is Well Thought out, and Your Mind's Process Involved is a Marvel!!

My take on the questions or the Quest in Life, is to Be Courageous, it takes Courage to * Be Thy Self *, once Mastered through the Duality and the Nature within then, it is Quite Simple.. The Clan Mentality is Easy to be Drawn to, because of strength in Numbers, though its most likely Residual, such as Like attracts Like.. You swarm to the same, familiar Harmonic Vibration Frequency..The Driving Force behind always Searching for the Who's, What's, Where's, How's, When's and Why's of life,  is A Deeper Knowing that there "Must Be More" than THIS!! . And There Is... I am One Soul, I walk, talk, speak,listen, learn, teach, SHARE, give, receive, LOVE, and PEACE, WRATH and JUSTICE.. I Stand in My Own because I Know The Answers to the Quest I Am In...and I must Give Thanks to My Teachers, Nature,Sun,Moon and the Stars...and to Love, Strength and Understanding.. This Power and Way of Living is in All of Us.... To Start off, Start peeling back the Societal Mainstream Categories, or Boxes, that our Minds thought, then Beliefs set, and lastly, Actions accomplished In the Running of Our Lives.. Change is Made through changing the thought,which in turn, changes the Set belief, and **MAGICALLY** THE ACTION IS CHANGED.... That is the Simplistic Way.. The Material realm makes things Complicated and Confusing... Peace to you and yours Sir xOx...

Thanks I will think about this latter, still a bit sad about a little misunerstanding with Sees. It is my fault, i started it first. Going to play chess and relax.

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On 03/12/2017 at 0:27 AM, sees said:

'Do we really have a need to know' probably not if you are talking about ego and bolstering it.  However this is not the only reason operating - not in my case anyway!  I have a need to know about things since I am interested in the truth.  Yes I am on a forum to put forward my opinions BUT I am open minded and, as such, am prepared to moderate/change my stance in the light of better knowledge on the subject!   It's very clear when someone is pushing their agenda and not acknowledging/addressing evidence contradicting this.  Trump supporters are notorious for this and remind me of head in the sand mentality i.e. in denial.  They share the stubborn/myopic trait of their chosen one!

To the question of do we need to 'prove our points of view' - I guess that depends how much we have invested in it.  On a forum it can be due to saving face, not being humiliated or easily/blatantly pointing out the flaws in someone's viewpoint. I always bear in mind that it's not a private conversation but one that is read by many so can be influential.  Of course it can just be point scoring (ego) but it is also nice to see that our views are supported/popular....it gives a sense of being on the 'right' track as I am sure you are familiar with also!

I will confess that I am on a bit of mission to redress the situation where negative mindsets try to present their view as a fact!  Most people realise we can choose our reactions e.g. what we focus on.  

"It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see"  (Henry D. Thoreau)

I love that your on this Mission SEES.. I go Do the same.. You have a Feisty Spirit.. I LIKE!!

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9 hours ago, Mr. Argon said:

The most seriuos blow i can recieve is to be called abuser of truth. Maybe you are right. I don't wish to participate anymore.

I Don't Believe our good Friend SEES, meant any intentions of DisRespect my Friend.. It is Perspective, that is All. Cheer up, All is in Good intent.. 

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59 minutes ago, Mr. Argon said:

Thanks I will think about this latter, still a bit sad about a little misunerstanding with Sees. It is my fault, i started it first. Going to play chess and relax.

TinoPai EhoaMa.. Hold your Head up towards the Sky.. And smile...

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