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THE OPIATE OF UNBELIEF

markdohle

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THE OPIATE OF UNBELIEF


The widespread and growing and always increasingly adamant denial of God and the repudiation of the spiritual dimension can be difficult to comprehend. This denial is always expressed with total conviction, no agnosticism, or questioning generally admitted.

It has long seemed to me that the inability to sense the sacred is a disability. The sense of the sacred is inherent in a human being. If this sense is lacking, it is no different from being without the ability to see, or hear, or smell. It is a disability like every other.



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On ‎23‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 8:34 PM, Helen of Annoy said:

Imagine a blind man accusing those who can see that they're insane when they claim eyes have purpose and visual information can guide you through space. 

Now imagine those who can see are contradicting others who can also see. This is where your analogy fails, "spiritual senses" are not comparable to visual perception.

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Helen of Annoy

Posted

4 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

Now imagine those who can see are contradicting others who can also see. This is where your analogy fails, "spiritual senses" are not comparable to visual perception.

Well, if you reject the existence of spiritual senses, then my analogy is failed in your opinion, absolutely. But it would fit into my analogy, seen from my point of view. 

If you would entertain the idea of spiritual senses, then they are quite like other senses, only not that limited to an physical organ - or even the body.

Please note that I'm not trying to tell you what's the ultimate truth, I'm merely telling you what it feels like from my point of view.  

It's hard for me to believe when people claim they never experienced anything remotely like spirituality, both the need and the realisation.

Maybe people expect the Heavens should open or something theatrical like that? No, it encompasses so many phenomena that we all (or not everyone, I don't know) experience daily. From prognostic (I won't say prophetic) dreams and feelings to the actual feeling of connection with the Absolute.

It's real for majority of people who had ever lived. 

Why it's so important to ridicule it and make it seem impossible today? (Please note that I'm not defending any religion here!) Is it really plausible that the majority of human kind is mentally ill? Because they feel connected and guided? But what if we are connected and guided? What if the insanity is on the side that wants to deny the reality because it doesn't fit into the strict materialist concept?  

 

By the way, I've noticed there's a lot of mistaking religion for faith and vice versa. 

I'd like to make it clear that I'm not too happy with any given religious structure (business, that is) that we've got in this world today, but it would be extremely insane to reject the obvious existence of the spiritual senses I (among billions of others) have got just because some spiritually stinky people like to hide behind the religion when doing various crimes, ranging from fraud to genocide. 

 

I hope you'll notice that my intention is not to preach anything to anyone and that I'm being completely honest, with absolutely no other motive than desire to share my own thoughts with others.

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8 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Well, if you reject the existence of spiritual senses, then my analogy is failed in your opinion, absolutely. But it would fit into my analogy, seen from my point of view

That's exactly the reason it fails.  Visual perception doesn't need your point of view.

 

8 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

If you would entertain the idea of spiritual senses, then they are quite like other senses, only not that limited to an physical organ - or even the body.

"Spiritual senses" are contradictory, so they are not like other senses.

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XenoFish

Posted

Spiritual senses are just rose tinted glasses. 

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psyche101

Posted

On 6/23/2019 at 9:04 PM, Helen of Annoy said:

Billions of people experience the spiritual, or as it was put so nicely above: sense the sacred.

It's simply not objective to dismiss them all as insane. Even if you suffer from the spiritual disability.

Imagine a blind man accusing those who can see that they're insane when they claim eyes have purpose and visual information can guide you through space. 

Appeal to authority. If one man claims to be Napoleon he is considered mentally impaired, if millions do it, its accepted. That's all spiritual senses are. An appeal to authority. If they are real and exist, such can be recorded. All that exists from these thousands of claims are anecdotes. 

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LightAngel

Posted

13 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I hope you'll notice that my intention is not to preach anything to anyone and that I'm being completely honest, with absolutely no other motive than desire to share my own thoughts with others.

 

 

If you didn't see this, then please do. :)

 

By the way, you shouldn't care about what other people think about your beliefs etc.

It's nobody's business how you live your life - as long as you don't go around harassing other people, and you don't, then you have no problems!

People who call you names are just projecting their own insecurities and faults.

I'm not a religious person, but I am a spiritual person, and I really don't care if people agree with me or not. I don't mind discussing this with mature people who can discuss in a productive manner, but I have no more time for kindergarten behavior.

I let them be them, and I will be me - live and let live! - Sometimes you must agree to disagree, it is self-destructive to fight with people over the same things all the time

When it comes to science, then things are slowly changing, it's very exciting. :tu:

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Helen of Annoy

Posted

1 hour ago, LightAngel said:

 

 

If you didn't see this, then please do. :)

 

By the way, you shouldn't care about what other people think about your beliefs etc.

It's nobody's business how you live your life - as long as you don't go around harassing other people, and you don't, then you have no problems!

People who call you names are just projecting their own insecurities and faults.

I'm not a religious person, but I am a spiritual person, and I really don't care if people agree with me or not. I don't mind discussing this with mature people who can discuss in a productive manner, but I have no more time for kindergarten behavior.

I let them be them, and I will be me - live and let live! - Sometimes you must agree to disagree, it is self-destructive to fight with people over the same things all the time

When it comes to science, then things are slowly changing, it's very exciting. :tu:

:yes:

And thank you :)  

It's not that it bothers me what people will think, I just really don't like the thought that they're doing awful things to themselves. Like forcing themselves into bizarrely nihilist beliefs, denying own experiences and emotions because they think that's 'scientific'. It's so cruel and illogical I simply have to say something from time to time, though I am aware it will be discarded since it goes against their religion (materialism obviously is a religion and also very dogmatic one).   

 

(I'll watch Rupert later, thanks for another great suggestion :) ) 

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GlitterRose

Posted

Meh. There's an opiate on both sides. Just look at the folks who quit drinking or drugs only to become religious extremists. 

The extremes on both sides are where people get super self-righteous...and really, really annoying. 

If only folks would stay somewhere in the middle. 

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XenoFish

Posted

11 minutes ago, GlitterRose said:

If only folks would stay somewhere in the middle. 

The middle doesn't exist. You are either fully in or not at all. Even agnosticism can not be completely maintained. 

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Helen of Annoy

Posted (edited)

Yes, it can. For example, I'm certain there's sense and purpose and that sentient beings are far more than their bodies, but I am at the same time aware I might be hilariously wrong and I'm sitting in a psychiatric hospital somewhere in Mongolia, imagining this conversation, the Internet, the existence of potatoes and everything that I've ever experienced. 

I also can't really accept the concept of pain being sent with any benevolent intention. I can explain it to myself, development through challenge and such, but I haven't fully accepted it. Yet. Maybe. I'm working on it. Then my mother drops by and mentions some recent horror that happened and concludes 'this planet must be Hell' and sets me back to 'very agonostic' :D     

So while my whole inner life is constantly utterly amazed with that 'more' it senses in our existence, I simply must allow it might not be real. Or that I'm stupid enough to interpret it all completely wrong. Because who the heck am I to hold the keys to the ultimate truth? 

But then, I keep seeing synchronicities way too meaningful to be called coincidences, unless one's really superstitiously afraid of the existence of higher order, but yes, these could be figment of my imagination. Maybe I am sitting in a psychiatric hospital somewhere... etc. 

 

In short, no one sane is fully in.

It's the agnosticism that leans to the faith or to the lack of it that is the only rational stance. Because we truly cannot know with absolute certainty (except if one lacks basic objectivity), but everyone has own feeling about it. 

The faith, of course, is above the rational (to those who experience it) - or below (to those who do not), but everyday life is not. Everyday life is all about being rational. And that's how I think so many people end up being actual agnostics, no matter how they declare themselves.  

And then, there're the zealots. In my opinion, their zeal almost never has anything to do with actual faith or lack of it. It has everything to do with the control, with that pesky need to tell others what to think. 

Personally, I think everyone's got all eternity for making own conclusions based on own experience. No need to rush anyone anywhere. And, of course, if materialists are right, there's nothing in which case no reason to get worked up at all.

 

Oh, this felt good. 

'scuse me for writing this all down, you should know better than to read my posts the next time :D  

 

 

edit: forgot to quote @XenoFish

Edited by Helen of Annoy

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XenoFish

Posted

You are either all in or not at all. There is still no grey area. You believe and that's it. You believe either because of indoctrination or choice. But you still believe and those things you find meaningful are ONLY meaningful to you and do not imply some divine cause. That's only YOUR interpretation. 

Everything comes down to black and white, yes and no. 

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XenoFish

Posted

I personally have an absolute hatred of religion. God is nothing more than an angry father figure who wants nothing less that absolute power over individuals. There is no god of love and peace. Just anger and wrath. God created suffering just to watch us fail. That is what god is. As for religions, they are nothing more than a control tool. A good way to brainwash people into the "Common good" which is whoever's running the cults will. 

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Helen of Annoy

Posted

10 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I personally have an absolute hatred of religion. God is nothing more than an angry father figure who wants nothing less that absolute power over individuals. There is no god of love and peace. Just anger and wrath. God created suffering just to watch us fail. That is what god is. As for religions, they are nothing more than a control tool. A good way to brainwash people into the "Common good" which is whoever's running the cults will. 

Oh, you've got problems. No, seriously. I'm not trying to insult you, it's just obvious that you really need actual help. In the sense of professional help. Again, I am not trying to insult you. Get help. This is not healthy. Healthy people can move on from their traumas caused most likely by mentally ill people abusing Bible for their sadistic needs. If you can't break free from that on your own, a psychiatrist can help you. 

Then we can discuss how disgusting religions can be. Indeed, they can be such. But it doesn't explain your state of mind. Get real help.  

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XenoFish

Posted

Did you know that by age 7 a child is basically programmed for life. Whatever went into their head became the subconscious programs they run off of, this includes everyone. So drilling certain things into a kids head on a constant if not daily bases will create their future. Sometimes there are those who have life long background programs of "Never Good Enough" that they can not escape. Where "Beat the Devil out of You" is god's will and you can never divorce yourself from that. Because it will always be there. A little voice, a whisper, and it has the worst bite. My personal favorite was "God doesn't love you, no one loves you, you'll never amount to anything."

You see abuse isn't just physical and the deepest scars can not be seen. While you and other coast through life on a cloud of magical thinking, some of us hate our very existence. And we do quite often wish we'd never existed. 

As for you not insulting me, yeah, you've insulted me. I can't blame a god that doesn't exist for the way I am, but I can blame the idea of god and what people have done because of it. In my minds eye. Those who love god so much, praise god so much. I see them standing over their kids with a belt, ready to beat the devil out of them. Spare the rod, spoil the child. 

I'm screwed up because I was programmed that way. 

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The Wistman

Posted

@XenoFish  Man, you're breaking my heart.  Violence against children....especially one's own children...is an evil, even if it comes disguised as training or for God.  I'm gasping at your scars.

I don't believe in a God, but I'm mystically inclined and pursue a spiritual path.  I don't find any conflict in that.

And, just to say for myself, if believing in God produces such humble and compassionate people as Thomas Merton and Mark Dohle, then that is reason enough to say that it can be a significant good.

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Helen of Annoy

Posted

19 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Did you know that by age 7 a child is basically programmed for life. Whatever went into their head became the subconscious programs they run off of, this includes everyone. So drilling certain things into a kids head on a constant if not daily bases will create their future. Sometimes there are those who have life long background programs of "Never Good Enough" that they can not escape. Where "Beat the Devil out of You" is god's will and you can never divorce yourself from that. Because it will always be there. A little voice, a whisper, and it has the worst bite. My personal favorite was "God doesn't love you, no one loves you, you'll never amount to anything."

You see abuse isn't just physical and the deepest scars can not be seen. While you and other coast through life on a cloud of magical thinking, some of us hate our very existence. And we do quite often wish we'd never existed. 

As for you not insulting me, yeah, you've insulted me. I can't blame a god that doesn't exist for the way I am, but I can blame the idea of god and what people have done because of it. In my minds eye. Those who love god so much, praise god so much. I see them standing over their kids with a belt, ready to beat the devil out of them. Spare the rod, spoil the child. 

I'm screwed up because I was programmed that way. 

If the child is stupid, yes. You're not stupid, you could notice already that you're not helpless anymore. You can hit back now. 

Unless you like the role of eternal victim. 

By claiming someone else screwed you up and there's nothing you could do about that, you're only showing incredible mental laziness. Someone else's fault, the world should cater to you then, there's no god since the world does not do that. Ha! Interesting idea, but it doesn't work, since none of us is the centre of the Universe. 

 

You also didn't notice I'm not trying to tell you there's god, especially not a god made into image of perverted people, I'm trying to tell you there's more than materialist concept suggests, because that is the prevalent conclusion among other humans, based on their experiences, not theories and dogmas.

Mostly agnostic as I am, I'm not sure if we really can get the exact picture of the true existence while in this life. But it doesn't matter really - what matters is the feeling of purpose, hope, the learning and growing.  

The higher power I'm aware of is not some bearded middle easterner sitting on a cloud, being mean to people to satisfy his sadistic desires. That image of god was made and perpetuated by sick people who had zero spiritual awareness. Atheists, if you will, because only an atheist could abuse the idea of higher power to suit their lowest needs. 

I'm trying to tell you that in my experience, this life is tough and weird and frustrating... but it does make sense and there's all the hope you'll ever need. It seems to me that we are here to solve the problems, to prove our humanity, to learn, to grow in strength and understanding, of each other and the existence in general... we're here for so much more than eating and ****ting. 

It's all right to complain. I complain a lot too :D But sometimes, we can do something too. You can do something, you can start living your life now, instead of agreeing to relive your childhood until the day you die. That's... bizarre. You didn't like it, of course you didn't, I didn't like mine either, but I wouldn't ever let it dictate my whole life. It's my life, it does not belong to the people who wronged me. 

 

By the way, you don't trust billions of people who sense and allow the possibility of spirituality, but you do trust the 'geniuses' who came up with the theory of human personality being irreversibly formed in the first seven years of life? 

Really? I'm walking proof that their theory is wrong, or that it has exceptions at best. 

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Helen of Annoy

Posted

37 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I trust no one, nor do I have faith in anybody. 

Well, congratulations, I guess :D 

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Helen of Annoy

Posted

On 6/25/2019 at 7:00 AM, LightAngel said:

 

 

If you didn't see this, then please do. :)

 

I finally started watching it, I'm at 20-something minute and so far I simply had to keep physically nodding my head in approval all that time :D

Rupert rocks!    

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LightAngel

Posted

On 26.6.2019 at 6:03 PM, Helen of Annoy said:

I'm walking proof that their theory is wrong, or that it has exceptions at best. 

 

You refused to become like the people who abused you, and you also refused to let your abusers define you!

You have a conscience, and it guided you to freedom!

You should work with children in need because you could help them so much! love0033.gif

 

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