Goddess... Mari... Mary... Maria... Isis..

August 16, 2007

Do you think they could be expressions of the same energy???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_(goddess)

here is much confusion over the origin of the name Mari. For some it is just the transposition of the Christian name of the mother of Jesus, Mary, but others prefer to believe that it is a modification of Emari (gift) or Amari (mother + the suffix of profession) by losing the first vowel. It is difficult to believe that such an important deity, actually the only known God of pre-Christian Basques (along with her consort), has a name derived from a Christian icon. In any case it is quite clear that the closeness in names may have helped to channelize the Pagan worship of the Goddess Mari into a Christian veneration of the Virgin Mary.

http://www.healingtao.org/deutsch/beschreib17a_engl.htm
The route of Santiago is a return to the bosom of the Great Goddess-the ‘One with a Thousand Names’. All churches, caves and holy wells are consecrated to the Great Goddess. It has been so since pre-Christian times. When the Christian monks adopted the route, it continued being consecrated to the Virgin Mary.

The energy of the Great Goddess is the divine feminine that lives within each of us. It is the Great Yin and maternal aspect of our being that expresses itself through our caring and nurturing nature. It is the Earth Mother that has been neglected and is being destroyed through lack of communication with our inner feminine.

It is through opening to our inner feminine caring nature that we are able to love ourselves and persevere in the energy practices which unfold our full potential.

Without activating our creative feminine aspect we cross trough the world acting in a mechanical way with a closed heart which leaves a trail of suffering and destruction.

One of the chief problems of modern energy practitioners is attempting to apply energy techniques in a mechanical way without ever awakening their nurturing nature. Enforcing the yang while starving the yin. In the great myth of Isis and Osiris, which is at the heart of the esoteric tradition of the west, it is the feminine the one that awakens the dead masculine. It is through the efforts of Isis that the luminous spirit of transcendence is born in the form of Horus

The pilgrimage along the Milky Way toward the heart of Sirius-Isis is the path of contacting the feminine in order to set in motion the process of illumination ‘at the end of the earth’ in Finisterre. This class will be an opportunity to focus on the path of the Creative Feminine; glimpse into the deep roots of the great tradition of honoring the Goddess, and perhaps become part of it by taking a great journey ‘beginning with one step’.

Mary - Is She Isis?

http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/amethystbt/MaryIsis.html

http://paranormalauthors.blogspot.com/2007...-mythology.html
The highest god in the Basque pantheon, such as it is, is actually a goddess called Mari. She is benign and helpful, protecting travelers and herds and giving good council to those who need it. The goddess of thunder and wind, she is the personification of the earth, similar to the Greek Gaia. Mari drives a chariot of four white horses across the sky and when she appears, she is a beautiful woman adorned with rainbows.

http://courses.atlas.uiuc.edu/Spring-2006/...pages/Mari.html

Edited August 16, 2007 by crystal sage

August 16, 2007

Mary wasn't a goddess. She was human. She was born human, lived human, died human. Along the way she was granted a miraculous birth, but that was all. Apart from that she was no different to you or I. The other names you mentioned were all goddesses, with divine powers and god-like abilities. Indeed, we know very little about Mary the mother of Jesus, except that she gave birth, she had Faith in God, she raised Jesus, and she saw him perform a miracle or two, and then saw him get crucified. That is all we know of her. There are no supernatural stories of her searching for the chopped up pieces of her dead lover, as happened with Isis. There are no stories of divine marriage, or weather patterns changing because of who she hung out with - this happened with Mari.

Conclusion - they are not the same, and none of these were templates for Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Of course, that's just how I see it based on the information available.

~ Regards, PA

August 16, 2007

Mary wasn't a goddess. She was human. She was born human, lived human, died human. Along the way she was granted a miraculous birth, but that was all. Apart from that she was no different to you or I. The other names you mentioned were all goddesses, with divine powers and god-like abilities. Indeed, we know very little about Mary the mother of Jesus, except that she gave birth, she had Faith in God, she raised Jesus, and she saw him perform a miracle or two, and then saw him get crucified. That is all we know of her. There are no supernatural stories of her searching for the chopped up pieces of her dead lover, as happened with Isis. There are no stories of divine marriage, or weather patterns changing because of who she hung out with - this happened with Mari.
Conclusion - they are not the same, and none of these were templates for Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Of course, that's just how I see it based on the information available.

~ Regards, PA

There goes my IVF theory!!!! Gleened from Eric von Danikan

idea that many advanced personages of the past were spawned by Angels... Gods....or Watchers....

http://www.metahistory.org/ExtraterrestrialReligion.php

http://www.elca.org/questions/Results.asp?recid=36

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/matthew.html
(2) The second theory is that Matthew, writing for a Roman gentile audience in Greek, included popular myths surrounding sons of gods, who in Roman mythology were frequently said to be born of virgins.

Matthew did not write that the virgin birth was prophesized nor fulfilled

The text in Matthew reads: "All this took place to fulfil what the Lord had said through the prophet: "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, 'God with us.'".

"As it happens, the ancient Greek translators of the Septuagint and similar translations made an ancient error. They translated the Hebrew word "almah" into the Greek "parthenos", which usually means a "virgin." "Almah" appears 9 other times in the Hebrew Scriptures; in each case it means "young woman" - a female who might have been a virgin or might have been sexually active. When the Hebrew scriptures referred to a virgin (and they do over 50 times) they always used the Hebrew word "betulah." So, Isaiah was referring to a young woman becoming pregnant (a rather ordinary event) and not to a woman having conceived while still remaining a virgin (a miracle). During the Christian era, the passage has become so famous that many modern translators find it difficult to conform to the Hebrew original. Many duplicate the error of those ancient Greek translations.

August 16, 2007

http://jcolavito.tripod.com/lostcivilizations/id6.html
Jesus' Alien Ancestors?

Sir Laurence Gardner made a name tracing the lineage of Jesus to the present day. Then he took a look back to an alien ancestry. We look for the truth about extraterrestrial genealogy.

By Jason Colavito

so Jesus was a brilliant

..enlightened... spiritually advanced Man... inspired by more than his share of God's energy.... to help humanity evolve spiritually....

God does not give more than you can handle... We are all children of God...

With a very strong loving Mother
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display.ph...ipts&id=115

The Proto-Gospel of James begins by telling how the righteous and childless Joachim, desiring a blessing, went out in the desert and lived in a tent for forty days. It also tells that when doubts were expressed by some regarding the virginity of Mary, Joseph went out into the desert to be tested, after first submitting to the "water of testing"; and after he had returned, his honor vindicated, Mary went out next to undergo the same test.26 The story is peculiar and awkward enough not to be anybody's invention, and indeed one is reminded of the great importance placed upon testing and examining the purity of all comers to the community of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and of their purging of defilements by baptisms and washings. If any doubts existed as to a person's sanctity, passing the tests of the holy covenanters of the desert would allay them.27 A valuable apocryphal source first detected by this writer recounts that it was in one of the desert communities of priests by the banks of the Jordan that Mary became betrothed to Joseph.28

So we would suggest as a possible historical kernel of the stories about the childhood of Jesus certain basic propositions: (1) the family was poor and hard-working; (2) they moved about a good deal; (3) the youthful Jesus said things that astonished and disturbed people; (4) the local ministers stirred up trouble and spread scandalous reports about the family, and (5) they had connections with the pious heretics of the desert, whose writings are full of New Testament ideas and phraseology.

http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/news/2005/j...-jesus-as-isla/
“Two-fifths of the world population, two billion people, share much more than what we had in mind. Two-fifths of the world accept Jesus’ virgin birth and his miracles,” Mahmoud said.

“With so much in common, one would wonder why there is such a divide between us,” he said.

Mahmoud explained that the Muslim tradition even borrows some narrative from the Christian Gospel.

“Jesus of Nazareth plays a very important role in Islamic tradition and the Koran, and people may not think that’s the case,” said Scott Bartchy, a professor in the history department and director of the Center for the Study of Religion.

“By the fourth century it was conventional for Christians to refer to Jesus as God’s son, and they began to think about Jesus as a God rather than the God who is simply mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures,” Bartchy said.

Though Muslims do not believe Jesus to be God, they do believe in the miracles Jesus performed, and he is termed a messiah in the Koran, Bartchy explained.

Mahmoud pointed out that within the Koran there is much writing on the Virgin Mary, and that Muslims believe in her immaculate conception, which is a continuity between the two religions.

But discontinuity still exists in how each religion reveres Jesus.

Muslims refer to textual evidence in the New Testament, which states that Jesus is a prophet, Bartchy explained.

In the book of Mark, Jesus is said to have turned to his disciples and asked who people think he is. They responded that people think he is a prophet, Bartchy said.

He noted that this may cause Christians to feel that Jesus is being demoted, but that Jesus’ first reputation as a prophet did actually originate from the Christian texts.

Muslims still hold Jesus in great esteem, and uphold many of his teachings.

Mahmoud explained that there are multiple themes embodied by Jesus’ teachings.

“Jesus said, be kind to those who are unkind to you, visit those who don’t visit you – that’s a high road of morality,” Mahmoud said, asking the audience if they would lend money to someone they knew wouldn’t repay them.

He posed further questions to the audience, showing that Jesus’ teachings are the same in the Koran and the Bible.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/MARYKRAN.HTM

Mary's childhood, as seen through the Koran narration and Islamic tradition, is entirely a miracle. Mary grows under direct divine protection, she is nourished daily by angels (III, 32) and has visions of God every day. Everything contributes to making her and her Son a signum for mankind (V, 79; XXI, 91; XXIII, 50). But if the detailed narration of Mary's childhood confirms the exceptional value of her person, it is necessary to stress that the greatness of Mary is completely related to the extraordinary event constituted by the birth of her son Jesus. The fearful and sweet vicissitudes that precede and accompany the birth and the childhood of her whom God chose above all women, are, in fact; nothing but the prelude to the coming of the Messiah (III, 40). Therefore, in the intentions of Mahomet and the whole Islamic tradition, the advent of the Man generated by the Word (III, 45) finds in the history of the little Mary the mysterious preceding fact that prepares the believer, even more than the Gospels themselves do, for an expectation full of awe and hope.

This atmosphere, so charged with expectation and wonder, certainly does not disappear at the moment of the annunciation—a moment that for Mary is the highest and most mysterious one in her earthly life, and that reveals to her at last the significance of her function in the history of men. The Koran does not indicate the place in which this mystery was carried but (XIX, 16). It asserts, on the contrary, (III, 42 FF: XIX, 17) that God sent his Spirit under the semblance of a handsome young man who, similarly to what is narrated in the Gospel of Pseudo Matthew, was the Archangel Gabriel, often identified in ancient time with the Spirit of truth or with times divine Spirit (ruh ul-amin and ruh Allah, XVI, 102; XIX, 17; XXVI, 193). It. should be pointed out that in the Koran version Mary does not utter the fiat which expresses her responsible acceptance of the divine will. Here she merely asks: "How can I give birth to a son if no man has touched me?"; receiving the answer; "Just so! God creates what he wants: when he decides something, it is enough that he should say: let it be! and it is" (III, 147; XIX, 203). A version that confirms the typically Islamic sense of the absolute authority and power of God, and the complete submission of man to his will.

.... The Koran then narrates that Mary, feeling the moment approach in which she would give birth, withdrew to a lonely place in the East. Moslem exegetics is not unanimous in recognizing Bethlehem as the place of the Messiah's birth nor does it seem to have attached much importance to the question. It lingered, on the contrary, on the episode of Mary who, tired and sad, invokes death (XIX, 22-26). The Spirit of truth answers her once more, bringing to her both spiritual and material comfort. Here, in fact, is inserted the well-known and delightful story of the Virgin who quenches her thirst with the water of a stream that suddenly gushes out under her feet, and who feeds on the dates of a palm tree.

The Koran gives no details about the birth of Jesus. It at once presents Mary who, returning among her people and showing them the Child, becomes the object of terrible slanders. The episode, brief but dramatic, is suddenly solved when the Infant, speaking unexpectedly from the cradle, takes his Mother's defence and exonerates her from all blame (XIX, 30-33). This miracle, to which the Koran refers more than once (e.g. III, 46; V, 113), is among those that have made most impression on the imagination of Moslem believers and that are still alive in their conscience. The episode, however, has also a kerigmatic importance for Islamic theology , since the fact that the Child speaks from the cradle is a violation of natural laws and therefore bears witness to the greatness of the Spirit that is in him.

http://www.ways-of-christ.net/topics/islam.htm

Edited August 16, 2007 by crystal sage

August 16, 2007

Buddha's mother was named Maya

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Maya

http://www.khandro.net/Bud_mother.htm
Mythology

Maya's name appears also in Greco-Roman (or, Classical) mythology. There was extensive commercial contact between India and the Mediterranean lands long before the time of Alexander of Macedon (ca. 350 BCE.) However, whether the Greek name had a different origin or not, is not as relevant as the fact that there, Maya or Maia was an earth goddess. Maia is usually explained as meaning Maker, for she is seen as the cause of the spring season when all that we have seen die away before winter now springs back to life. Therefore we have come to use her name to designate (in the northern hemisphere,) May, the month of flowers -- the time of rebirth.

In the mythology of ancient Greece, Maia was once the youngest of the group of stars called the Pleiades (children of Pleione, another name for Aphrodite.) Atlas, their father, was a Titan who was punished for taking part in a revolt against the gods, and so was sentenced to bear the heavens [no, not the world] on his shoulders. Unable to bear their father's humiliation, Maia and her sisters fled to highest heaven and can be seen there as the group known as The Pleiades.

But wait. Maia is called Grandmother of Magic. Seduced by Zeus, she gave birth to Hermes, the Transformer -- the one who is a Master of Disguise, a Trickster and the psycho-pomp (guide of souls to the land of the dead.) The planet Mercury is named for Hermes, and in Sanskrit the name is Budh.

The activity of the child, Hermes (Mercury, to the Romans) is reminiscent of the Indian god, Krishna. While still an infant, Hermes stole the cattle of the sun. From the shell of a tortoise, he created the lyre, and he also invented the flute from the hollow reeds of a marsh.

Barbara Walker (The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets, 1986) points out some other associations. Under the entry Maya:

"Magic," title of the Virgin Kali as the creatress of earthly appearances, i.e., all things made of matter and perceptible to the senses. She also gave birth to the Enlightened One, Buddha.

The same Goddess, called Maia by the Greeks, was the virgin mother to Hermes the Enlightened One, who had as many reincarnations as the Buddha. Sometimes Maia's partner was Volcanus (Greek Hephaestus, the divine smith and fire-god). This was another mythic mating of male fire and female water. Hindus said Agni the fire-god was the consort of Kali-Maya, though he was periodically swallowed up and "quenched" by her. According to the Tantric phrase, the Goddess quenched a blazing lingam in her yoni.

As the virgin mother of Buddha, Maya embarrassed ascetic Buddhists and was soon written out of the script. Like ascetic Christians speaking of Christ's birth, some Buddhists claimed the Enlightened One could not touch his mother's "parts of shame" and so was born through an opening in her side. This mythic Caesarian section seems to have been bungled, for a few days later Maya died -- "of joy," as Buddhist scriptures rather fatuously put it.

Nevertheless, Maya remained very much alive as one of Kali's most revered manifestations, because the very fact of "Existence"-- the material cosmos-demanded her presence. As Zimmer analyzed her:

Maya-Shakti is personified as the world-protecting, feminine, maternal side of Ultimate Being, and as such, stands for spontaneous, loving acceptance of life's tangible reality . . . he affirms, she is, she represents and enjoys, the delirium of the manifested forms . . . . Maya-Shakti is Eve, "the Eternal Feminine," das Ewig-Weibliche: she who ate, and tempted her consort to eat, and was herself the apple. From the point of view of the masculine principle of the Spirit (which is in quest of the enduring, eternally valid, and absolutely divine) she is the pre-eminent enigma.

In herself Maya embodies all three aspects of the maternal trinity. Her colors were white, red, and black, the colors of the Gunas, or the Virgin-Mother-Crone. Like every other form of Kali, she was Creator, Preserver, Destroyer. She was also a spirit dwelling perpetually in women. A Mahayana text says, "Of all the forms of Maya, woman is the most important."

Maya's son Buddha [shakyamuni] was surrounded by her symbols. He entered his trance of meditation under her sacred fig tree, which protected him from the weather. On his return from the soul-journey, his first symbolic act was to accept a dish of curds from a maiden on Full Moon Day in the month of May, the greatest of Buddhist festivals.

Not only the month but many other traditions attest to the great age and wide distribution of the Goddess Maya. She was more than the Maia who mothered Hermes; she was also Maga the Grandmother- goddess who bore Cu Chulainn's mother; and the Mandaean Christian's Almaya, called "Eternity," or "the World," or "Beings"; and Maga or Maj the May-maiden in Scandinavia. Like the Hindu Maya who brought forth earthly appearances at creation, the Scandinavian one personified the pregnant womb of chaos before the beginning: Ginnungagap. In this the World-virgin was associated with the idea of magical illusion, creating "appearances" like her Hindu counterpart.

This universal Creatress-name may have reached the western hemisphere also. The Maya people of Yucatan offered sacrifices in the same way as in northern India, at the same seasons, determined by the same stars. Mayan "scorpion stars" were the same as the constellation Scorpio on Hindu and Greek charts. As in India, Mayan divine images were painted blue and Mayan women pierced the left nostril for insertion of a jewel. Another version of the Creatress seems to have been the Mother Goddess Mayauel of the Mexican Agave, called "Woman with Four Hundred Breasts," with a strong resemblance to the world-nurturing Many-Breasted Artemis and other eastern forms of the deity who mothered all the world's creatures.

http://www.alislam.org/library/links/00000121.html
http://www.alislam.org/library/links/00000121.html

Buddha and Jesus

Bashir Ahmad Orchard

The Review of Religions, June 1990

Buddha and Jesus were both holy prophets of God who appeared in their own times for the spiritual rejuvenation of the people to whom they were sent. Buddha appeared in India about six hundred years before Jesus. In both were found a purity of life, sanctity of character and patient endurance under fierce persecution. It appears that they were both very near in resemblance as suggested by the following analogies.

1. Jesus was born of a virgin without carnal intercourse. (Matth. Chapter 1)

Buddha was born of a virgin without carnal intercourse. (Hinduism by Williams, pp. 82 and 108)

2. When Jesus was an infant in his cradle, he spoke to his mother and said: I am Jesus, the son of God. (Gospel of Infancy)

When Buddha was an infant, just born, he spoke to his mother and said: I am the greatest among men. (Hardy's Manual of Buddhism, pp. 145-6)

3. The life of Jesus was threatened by King Herod. (Matth. 2:1)

The life of Buddha was threatened by King Bimbarasa. (History of Buddha by Beal pp. 103-104)

4. When Jesus was a young boy we are told that the learned religious teachers were astonished at his understanding and answers. (Luke 2:47)

When sent to school, the young Buddha surprised his masters. (Hardy's Manual of Buddhism)

5. Jesus fasted for forty days and nights. (Matth. 4:2)

Buddha fasted for a long period. (Science of Religion by Muller, p 28)

6. It is believed that Jesus will return to this world. (Acts 1:11)

It is believed that Buddha will return to this world. (Angel-Messiah by Bunsen, Ch. 14)

7. Jesus said: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not to destroy but to fulfill. (Matth. 5:17)

Buddha came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it. (Science of Religion by Muller, p 140)

8. Jesus taught: Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you. (Matth. 5:44)

According to Buddha, the motive of all our actions should be pity, or love for our neighbour. (Science of Religion by Muller, p 249)

9. It is recorded certain of the scribes and pharisees answered, saying, Master we would see a sign from thee. (Matth. 12:38)

It is recorded in the Sacred Canon of the Buddhists that the multitude required a sign from Buddha that they might believe. (Science of Religion by Muller, p 27)

10. It is written in the New Testament that Jesus said: If thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and caste it from thee. (Matth. 5:29)

A story is related of a Buddhist ascetic whose eye offended him so he plucked it out and threw it away. (Science of Religion by Muller, p 245)

The basic teachings of Buddha are very similar to those taught by Jesus most of which are contained in his Sermon on the Mount. (Matth. ch 5)

August 16, 2007

"The female divinity of the ancient Basques was "Mari", the lady or gentlewoman who lived in the caves which reach deep down to the centre of the earth. "

http://www.buber.net/Basque/Folklore/folk1.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_mythology
Mari is considered the supreme goddess, and her consort Sugaar the supreme god. Mari is depicted in many different forms: sometimes as various women, as different red animals, as the black he-goat, etc. Sugaar, however, appears only as a man or a serpent/dragon

:innocent: Shades of David Icke!!!!

Then there is the Goddess Mari who is crowned by dolphins.... shades of Atlantis??? or to do with the fish symbol of religion???

http://www.dhushara.com/book/orsin/dhushara.htm
The Nabateans, like the Harranians, followed a complex system of astral worship, involving the sun and moon and seven major planets, in which in her varying forms, the Goddess represented Venus and the Moon (Glueck 453). As Moon Goddess she is identifiable with Tyche, Selene and Atargatis-Artemis of Hierapolis. Selene was worshipped in the new and full moon. She stands prima inter pares at the centre of the main dieties of the Nabatean pantheon the seven planets and the zodiac, although sometimes displaced by Zeus. The snake twined eagle is shown in at least one relief standing above both the sun and moon at Jebel Druze. However the fertility goddess, who was also in her aspects the dolphin-crowned Sea Goddess (Aphrodite-Mari) of seafarers and the Moon Goddess clearly dominates the sculptures at Khirbet Tannur, the outstanding Nabataean high sanctuary, archetypal of the biblical high places (Glueck).

Women played a significant role in Nabatean society. Aretas IV was on coinage with Shaqilat I, while Malichus II was alongside Shaqilat II. "Married women could bequeath and hold property and genealogy was sometimes traced through the maternal line. Pagan temples, whether inside or outside the Nabataean kingdom were dedicated to both Dushara and Allat or to localized equivalents of Zues Hadad and Atargatis. Indeed in general, Atargatis seems to have outranked her consort by far" (Glueck 166).

Jesus and Edom

During the time of Jesus, Nabatea was an independent Kingdom with influence spreading to Damascus. Herod was involved in hostilities with Aretas IV the King of Nabatea because Herodias displaced Aretas's daughter as Herod's wife. Although they were annexed by the Romans they continued to be a significant Arab power to the time of Muhammad.

Josephus' famous passage on Jesus (c 92 AD) is widely regarded as a Christian interpolation, however his later reference to the unjust execution in 62 AD of James 'the brother of Jesus called the Christ' sounds authentic. Origen (c250) expressed astonishment that Josephus while, disbelieving Jesus was the messiah, should speak so warmly of James, implying that Josephus did originally document the existence of Jesus (Wilson I 60-1).

Edited August 16, 2007 by crystal sage

August 16, 2007

This too is interesting!!!!

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_autor_whenry04.htm

The Cathars called themselves Pure Ones after the Goddess known as the Pure One, their term for the Virgin Great Creator Mother Mari (meaning ‘love’). The reason the Church resorted to the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Cathars most certainly had to do with their alternative views about Jesus.

They claimed to possess a secret Book of Love (Mari, TARA). This mysterious manuscript is attributed to Jesus who gave it to John the Divine. It was transmitted through the centuries until the Knights Templar and the Cathars adopted it. The Book of Love was the foundation of the Cathar Church of Love or Amor (the reverse of Roma).

The existence of this lost (or hidden) gospel was revealed when the Catholic Church subjected the Cathars and Templar (in 1308) to torture. Its contents were a secret skill (symbolized by the Templar skull) said to grant one the ability to control the forces of nature and to transform ordinary human blood into that of the wise, holy and pure blood of life of the immortal Illi or Illuminati. It is equated with the Holy Grail.

THE JESUS CODE

According to Catharic belief, one object of Earth life was to make over the human body as a worthy vehicle for the light of the Holy Spirit (love). The point was to know the Grail not as a cup but as a process. Jesus was its modeler. Insight into this teaching radiates from the name of the Cathar’s home, the Languedoc. Named after the pre-Flood language system the Cathar priests claimed Jesus preached in—the Language of Oc (possibly short for occamy, a corruption of alchemy) -- this place name is Cathar Jesus code.

This angakoq, writes Eliade, consists of,

“a mysterious light which the shaman suddenly feels in his body, inside his head, within his brain, an inexplicable searchlight, a luminous fire which enables him to see with both eyes, both literally and metaphorically speaking, for he can now, even with closed eyes, see through darkness and perceive things and coming events which are hidden from others.”

The emphasis here is on eyes and light.

Enlightenment is exactly what the Cathars claimed they received from the highly symbolic Language of Oc. As an investigative mythologist, it is of great interest to me that the Egyptian hieroglyph of the heron/phoenix, , the ‘bird of light’ (akh), so closely matches the stylized fish glyph of Jesus , though it predates him by millennia. In addition, these two symbols are structurally identical to , the mathematical sign sometimes used for infinity, which spells OC. It is the root for ‘octo’ or 8. These symbols suggest a continuous transmission of knowledge of the secrets of light.

CRYPTOCRACY

When the Roman Christian church began to consolidate its power in the fourth century it sought to prevent its adherents from taking up the secret path of 8 (Jesus’ number is 888) and becoming Christ- like beings. After all, they don’t pay taxes, they’re difficult to control, and they have no use for a priest.

:tu: Remember 8 is the Dragon number ... the number of power for the people of the East!!!

http://www.scoreboard-canada.com/babylon-108numerology.htm

August 16, 2007

Thanks for all that Cyrstal Sage....facinating.

I was especially drawn to the 'stuff' about the Cathars as I have had a 'thing' about

them since the mid 70s.

I want to come back to read this thread again later.

There is such a lot of information!

You really are so good at finding pieces of life's jigsaw.

Thanks for sharing :tu:

August 16, 2007

Selam

Just I want to comment on crystal sages quotes about Mary in Kuran.

Mahmoud explained that the Muslim tradition even borrows some narrative from the Christian Gospel.

This is so true, when one look at hadiths it can be seen clearly…

Mary's childhood, as seen through the Koran narration and Islamic tradition, is entirely a miracle

This is not true according Kuran, most possibly from tradition and hadiths. Actually Kuran talks a very little about the childhood of Meryem. These are all concocted stories made under the influence of Christian theology. These are the verses of Kuran talking about the childhood of Meryem;

“When the wife of Imran said: "My Lord, I have vowed to You what is in my womb, dedicated, so accept from me, You are the Hearer, the Knower." So when she delivered she said: "My Lord, I have delivered a female," and God is fully aware of what she delivered, "And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her and her progeny with You from the outcast devil." So her Lord accepted her a good acceptance, and made her grow into a good growth, and charged Zachariah with her. Every time Zachariah entered upon her in the temple enclosure, he found provisions with her. He said: "O Mary, from where did you get this?" She said: "It is from God, God provides for whom He wishes without reckoning."”(3/35-37)

Mary grows under direct divine protection, she is nourished daily by angels

There is no verse saying above in Kuran. Here is 3/32;

“Say: "Obey God and the messenger." But if they turn away, then God does not like the rejecters.”

Everything contributes to making her and her Son a signum for mankind

All the messages of God are signs for the worlds. “And We narrate to you from the news of the messengers with which We strengthen your heart. In this has come to you the truth and a lesson and a reminder for the believers.”(11/120) and the signs can be verified within or without ourselves, “We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?”(41/53), Muhammed is also called rahmet for the worlds(21/107), Abraham is also called friend of God(4:125).

But if the detailed narration of Mary's childhood confirms the exceptional value of her person, it is necessary to stress that the greatness of Mary is completely related to the extraordinary event constituted by the birth of her son Jesus.

The Qur'an clearly indicates that the role and significance of Maryam is equal in status to that of a prophet, and what distinguishes her from prophets is simply that she delivers a messenger rather than a message per se. Also Kuran never mentions virgin birth or the opposite,what Kuran tells given below if one interprets these verses under the biblical influence or biblical influenced hadiths, surely comes to the consequece of virgin birth.

“She said: "How can I have a son when no human being has been with me, nor have I desired such?" He said: "It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. And We shall make him a sign for the people and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained."”(19/20-21).

Also there are claims from some muslim scholars that İsa had a father, showing evidence of the verse 6:87, give me a quote from one of them(which i do not agree with this);

The Quran clearly mentions Jesus's father. In surah En’am verse 84-87 Allah mentions names of 18 prophets at a stretch. Of these, verse 86 specifically mentions name of Isa as: "…. And Zakariyya, and Yahya and Isa and Ilyas - everyone was of the righteous." After stating the names of the 18 prophets, in the very next verse 88 Allah goes on to say that:
6:87 And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. And We chose them and We guided them towards the Right Path.

In the verse 6:87, the Arabic words "…. Wa min aaba ihim…" is critical. Let me break down the words: Wa means And, Min means From Aaba means Fathers Ihim means Among theirs. Together it means …. And from among their fathers….

Muslim scholars are in jeopardy with this statement from Allah. They desperately try to justify their faith that Jesus did not have a father. So now they start twisting the meaning and interpretation. At this time I want to emphasize that if Jesus did not have a father then the verse 6:87 should not have included his name or should have specifically stated that illa Isa or except Isa. Or would you say it was an oversight (nauzubillah!) on part of Allah!!! If the argument is that some HAD fathers, then which other prophet did not have a father? Can you tell me who was born without a father other than Jesus?

There are several other prophets whose fathers are not specifically mentioned in the Qur-an , for example, Nuh, Dawud, Ayyub, Musa, Harun, Zakariya, whose name exists in the list of 18 prophets in the above verses. Even though we don’t find the mention of fathers of these prophets we believe these prophets did have fathers. But in case of Jesus we make the exception that he did not have a father. We make this exception because the Christian teachings tell us that Jesus did not have a father, although time and again Bible refers to his father as a person named Joseph.

Muslims are more interested to uphold the Biblical statement at the cost of the Quranic declaration.

Jesus is called Messiah, which refers to him being a descendant of David. Mary wasn't family of David, but of Aaron. Joseph was descendant of David. Only through Joseph being his father, could Jesus being called Messiah. Also Jesus's father is not mentioned because he has no importance for us. Moses's father is also not mentioned, but no one doubts about Moses being born naturally. People are taught to see a virgin-birth in those verses. Even when people read the Quran alone without using outside literature, still they grew up with this concept, or have heard about it, and by thus, their subconciousness is filled in with the virgin concept. They fill in the blanks themselves, which is very dangerous. It is what you can call a mass-illusion.

If the common believe of virginbirth was not there, I would doubt anybody would ever have read virginbirth from the Quran. The common filled subconciousness which was influenced by the Christians, has determined the interpretation more then people like to admit.

Nowhere does the Quran imply Jesus was born in an unnatural way. God doesn't break His laws. Of course He can, but He says in the Quran He will not break them, this includes laws of Nature. The comparison of Adam and Jesus, is that like the first peoples, Jesus had gone through normal development as a foetus, just like the first humans were developed through guided evolution. Adam comes from adami, meaning mankind. Many times the plural use is used with adam, showing it is not one person.

It asserts, on the contrary, (III, 42 FF: XIX, 17) that God sent his Spirit under the semblance of a handsome young man who, similarly to what is narrated in the Gospel of Pseudo Matthew, was the Archangel Gabriel, often identified in ancient time with the Spirit of truth or with times divine Spirit (ruh ul-amin and ruh Allah, XVI, 102; XIX, 17; XXVI, 193).

Some scholars interpreted Ruh El Kudüs is a Title which was given Cebrail in Kuran. He is the messenger between Allah and his prophets, and he is the one who is sent by Allah to "blow" and, thus, renders the beings who do not speak or comprehend speak and comprehend (example of humanoids who are made humans / Adam; and the example of Jesus who spoke while he was being delivered; both were "blown" into, whatever that means).

This leads us to verse 85 chapter 17: ( they ask you about al-Ruh, say it is a matter of Allah's knowledge, and you "those who ask" have been given only al ittle knowledge ...). The Ruh in this verse is also Gabriel, and not "spirit" as explained in the traditional interpretation, because Allah never mentioned "spirit" for creatures or humans, but spoke of "nafs": literally self, whose departure of the body causes death. Again, "nafs" is not attributed to other than humans in the Qur'aan (no mention of animals, e.g., having "nafs").

The Koran gives no details about the birth of Jesus

Exactly! Nor the other prophets' birth(including Muhammed) Kuran gives details.

is suddenly solved when the Infant, speaking unexpectedly from the cradle

Also some scholars take this allegorical and interpret the verse in the light of it. Keeping in mind 3/7, there can be made many interpretations. Let me quote an example;

“In verse 3:46 and 19:29 it says that Jesus talked from the crib to his people. The common interpretation is to take this literally and believe Jesus could talk while still being no more then a couple months to 2 years old. This understanding is not only completely illogical, it also rejects the very words he says from the 'crib':
19:29 Then she pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?"

19:30 But he spoke up, "Behold, I am a servant of God. He has given me Revelation and appointed me a Prophet.”

19:31 “He has made me blessed wherever I may be. He has enjoined upon me to establish the Divine System and help set up the Just Economic Order as long as I live.”

A BABY must pay Zakat! How? This is ofcourse illogical. But there is more:

19:32 “And He has made me kind to my mother, and has not made me haughty, unblessed.”

How can a baby be kind to its mother? This all does not make sense unless we see it from a more logical point. Talking from the crib means that he was very young when he spoke against the wrongdoings of his people. A person of 20 years old will not be seen as wise, and especially not old enough to speak against the priesthood or custom. No young scholar is accepted as having authority on the Religion. Most Temples and orders have a group of scholars who all follow a much older scholar. This is why it means:

3:46 Talking to people while very young and in ripe old age in good health.”

19:29 Then she pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?" (In the cradle, idiomatically means a young person. Mary and Joseph had stayed in Bethlehem for several years).”

The episode, however, has also a kerigmatic importance for Islamic theology , since the fact that the Child speaks from the cradle is a violation of natural laws and therefore bears witness to the greatness of the Spirit that is in him.

Thats why i quoted some examples rejecting miracles. But everything in the universe surrenders to God's will and follow His laws that are made for them. This does not mean that there are no other laws that have not yet been discovered, and when the universe is subjected to those laws by His will, by the command of "Be", the universe surrenders to those laws also and follows them also, for example, sea parting, chopped up birds coming to life, humans sleeping for hundreds of years etc. Just because we don't understand those laws does not mean they don't exist.

Also there are other perspectives which all the parables mentioned above are allegorical.

Also some scholars also claim that İsa had a wife showing verse 13/38 as a evidence which says “And certainly We sent apostles before you and gave them wives and children, and it is not in (the power of) an apostle to bring a sign except by Allah's permission; for every term there is an appointment.”

Lastly for the subject/claim of crucifixion of İsa and going İsa up to heaven what Kuran says:

The Quran:
3:55 “O Jesus! I will cause you to die of natural causes and I will exalt you in honor/raf'a and I will clear you of the slander of the disbelievers. ---.

The word Raf’a means honoring or exalting. "Nowhere in the Quran is there any warrant for the popular belief that God has taken up Jesus bodily into heaven."

19:56 And make mention of Idris (Enoch) in the Book. Verily, he was a man of truth, a Prophet.

19:57 And We raised him to a high station of honor/raf'a.

Muhammed Asad again:

4: 155 And so, [We punished them*] for the breaking of their pledge, and their refusal to acknowledge God's messages, and their slaying of prophets against all right, and their boast, "Our hearts are already full of knowledge"- nay, but God has sealed their hearts in result of their denial of the truth, and [now] they believe in but few things - ;**

(4: 156) and for their refusal to acknowledge the truth, and the awesome calumny which they utter against Mary,***

(4: 157) and their boast, "Behold, we have slain the Christ Jesus, son of Mary, [who claimed to be] an apostle of God!" However, they did not slay him, and neither did they crucify him, but it only seemed to them [as if it had been] so;**** and, verily, those who hold conflicting views thereon are indeed confused, having no [real] knowledge thereof, and following mere conjecture. For, of a certainty, they did not slay him:

(4: 158) nay, God exalted him unto Himsel****** - and God is indeed almighty, wise.

(4: 159) Yet there is not one of the followers of earlier revelation who does not, at the moment of his death, grasp the truth about Jesus;****** and on the Day of Resurrection he [himself] shall bear witness to the truth against them.

*The statement relating to their punishment - clearly implied here - is made explicit in verse.

**See 2: 88 and the corresponding notes.

***The calumny referred to is the popular Jewish assertion that Jesus was an illegitimate child.

****Thus, the Qur’an categorically denies the story of the crucifixion of Jesus. There exist, among Muslims, many fanciful legends telling us that at the last moment God substituted for Jesus a person closely resembling him (according to some accounts, that person was Judas), who was subsequently crucified in his place. However, none of these legends finds the slightest support in the Qur’an or in authentic Traditions, and the stories produced in this connection by the classical commentators must be summarily rejected. They represent no more than confused attempts at "harmonizing" the Qur’anic statement that Jesus was not crucified with the graphic description, in the Gospels, of his crucifixion.

The story of the crucifixion as such has been succinctly explained in the Qur’anic phrase wa-lakin shubbiha lahum, which I render as "but it only appeared to them as if it had been so" - implying that in the course of time, long after the time of Jesus, a legend had somehow grown up (possibly under the then-powerful influence of Mithraistic beliefs) to the effect that he had died on the cross in order to atone for the "original sin" with which mankind is allegedly burdened; and this legend became so firmly established among the latter-day followers of Jesus that even his enemies, the Jews, began to believe it - albeit in a derogatory sense (for crucifixion was, in those times, a heinous form of death-penalty reserved for the lowest of criminals). This, to my mind, is the only satisfactory explanation of the phrase wa-lakin shubbiha lahum, the more so as the expression shubbiha li is idiomatically synonymous with khuyyila 1i, "[a thing] became a fancied image to me", i.e., "in my mind" - in other words, "[it] seemed to me" (see Qamus, art. khayala, as well as Lane II, 833, and IV, 1500).

*****Cf. 3: 55, where God says to Jesus, "Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me." The verb rafa ahu (lit., "he raised him" or "elevated him") has always, whenever the act of raf’ ("elevating") of a human being is attributed to God, the meaning of "honouring" or "exalting".

Nowhere in the Qur’an is there any warrant for the popular belief that God has "taken up" Jesus bodily, in his lifetime, into heaven. The expression "God exalted him unto Himself" in the above verse denotes the elevation of Jesus to the realm of God's special grace - a blessing in which all prophets partake, as is evident from 19: 57, where the verb rafa nahu ("We exalted him") is used with regard to the Prophet Idris. (See also Muhammad ‘Abduh in Manar III, 316 f., and VI, 20f.) The "nay" (bal) at the beginning of the sentence is meant to stress the contrast between the belief of the Jews that they had put Jesus to a shameful death on the cross and the fact of God's having "exalted him unto Himself".

******Lit., "who does not believe in him before his death". According to this verse, all believing Jews and Christians realize at the moment of their death that Jesus was truly a prophet of God - having been neither an impostor nor "the son of God" (Zamakhshari).

I think the person who wrote the above interpretation about Mary in Kuran, took only sketchy infos from traditional scholars(who sees hadiths as holy words and an important source of Islam) related to hadiths(especially under biblical influence).

Let me finish with a comment from a muslim scholar (Seyid Ahmed Kaan) about the interpretations of Kuran;

“"Our (Muslim) commentators of the Qur'an have blindly followed the Christian traditions to forge such Ahadith. These so-called experts have assigned totally erroneous meaning to "Raf’a" or the raising of the prophets Jesus (3:55) and Enoch (19:56). The Qur'an absolutely does not portray the raising of these prophets bodily up into the heavens. It describes raising them in honor. The prophecies of the coming of Mahdi and Messiah have been introduced into our history by non-Muslims. The Qur'an is absolutely free of these ridiculous statements. (Ref. Tafseer vol I part 7 pg 123, vol 2 several pages)”

Edited August 16, 2007 by armegon

August 18, 2007

It's almost like there is a cycle of life... throughout history..this scene seems to replay of a Virgin Mother..giving birth to a divine child... of messages of hope...of light... for the enhancement... for the enlightenment of Man... of messages of Hope... of Wonder... that there is more to this life than mere existence ...than the mundane.... constant reminders , teachings of spirit...that there is more to this life... there is Heaven...there is spirit... we too are children of the divine ..

Taught through example... that there is mystical magic in this world... out of this world... that we are not alone.... that we are being watched... that there are outside interests.....that there are outside influences keeping us on the straight and narrow!!! :nw:

Following on the heels of goddesses such as Aphrodite, Astarte, Cybele, Demeter, Hathor, Inanna, Ishtar and Isis, Mary is "both virgin and mother, and, like many of them, she gives birth to a half-human, half-divine child, who dies and is reborn."

http://www.truthbeknown.com/mary.html
Concerning Isis's prototype, the Egyptian lunar virgin goddess Neith, who predated the Christian era by millennia, in The Ancient Gods (84) Rev. James observes:

…She too was the virgin mother of the Sun-god, having given birth to Re [Ra] as the great cow, and was identified with Isis as the wife of Osiris, later becoming one of the forms of Hathor. Indeed, she was "the Great Goddess, the mother of all the gods."…

…She was eternal, self-existing, self-sustaining and all-pervading, personifying the female principle from very early times. She was believed to have brought forth the transcendent Sun-god without the aid of a male partner, very much as in the Memphite Theology Ptah created all things virtually ex nihilo by thinking as the "heart" and commanding as the "tongue."

The virgin-mother goddess represents not only the moon but also the constellation of Virgo. This important information regarding the Virgin is found in ancient texts, such as the Eclogues (37 BCE) of the Roman poet Virgil, in which is described or "prophesied" the "return of the virgin," i.e., Virgo, who would bring about "a new breed of men sent down from heaven," as well as the birth of a boy "in whom…the golden race [shall] arise." This virgin-born "golden boy" is in actuality the sun.

...... From the Egyptians, the Romans took their Solar festivals, in honour of the birth of the god of light, celebrated on the 25th of December, at which time, says Servius, the Sun may, properly speaking, be said to be anew, or to have a new birth. Hence the Christmas of the Christians, which had also been previously, a Druidic festival, in honour of the solar God's birth…

Edited August 18, 2007 by crystal sage

August 19, 2007

Do you think they could be expressions of the same energy???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_(goddess)

Mary - Is She Isis?

http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/amethystbt/MaryIsis.html

http://courses.atlas.uiuc.edu/Spring-2006/...pages/Mari.html

I live in a country that is essentially the world centre of the Marian Cult, as it is known. You've heard of the 3 secrets of Fatima, well belSoieve me, most catholics here are also devotees of Mary.

It is interesting that Mary has various offcial Catholic titles, some of which are amazing...

Mary's most common titles include The Blessed Virgin Mary (also abbreviated to "BVM"), Our Lady (Notre Dame, Nuestra Señora, Nossa Senhora, Madonna), Mother of God (Mater Dei), the Queen of Heaven (Regina Caeli). Mary is referred as Theotokos, "Godbearer", Saint Mary and is also known as the Immaculate Conception, a title also shared by Isis.

So yes, I completely agree that there is a concptual connection between these people or Goddesses as you call them.

The point is that none of this really has anything to do with the historical Mary the mother of Jesus. Who died (of old age) like any other mortal person on the planet, but is celebrated as having ascended to heaven just like Jesus. The 15th of August is known as Assumption day for that very reason.

I think that what we have here in Portugal can be called a decieving spirit, one who imitates the personage of Mary and is widely known as "Our Lady of Fatima". This is the same decieving spirit that appeared in Lourdes in the late 19th century and as it so happens, both Lourdes and Fatima are world wide destinations for pilgrims who come looking for a miracle...

Much like Aphrodite, Venus, Diana, Isis, Sekhmet, Astarte, Ashtoreth,, Asherah, Ishtar, Hecate, Demeter, Kali and Inanna the 1st of them all. Goddess of sexual love, fertility, and warfare of Sumerian Mythology.

August 19, 2007

But then again... people have been praying to Jesus' mother for two thousand years for help...for love.. for compassion...

I'd say that all that energy directed towards her... the constant calling on her spirit... will bind her to this earth!!!

The love and energy that the spirit has received over the last two thousand years of prayer will strengthen her spirit...

her very nuturing nature during her earthly life... her personality... will not refuse assistance to those who call for her.. were it in her power...

I don't think that God would prevent it...

I think he would have chosen carefully and well... He did after all chose her above all for the birth and nurturing of Jesus...

I don't think that she would object and would actually enjoy working along side Jesus... in helping all those in need on Earth...

She would be working as one of Gods angels...

I think those sightings may not be pretenders....but true energetic manifestations of Mary...

Do you believe in ghostly energies... guardian spirits...??? there are some troubled souls who like to hang around ..or feel impelled to hang around... and then there are those who are attached to the living...who act as guardians... and then there are those who are who have divine missions...who are there to give hope.. enlightenment...love ...compassion...inspiration...

We are always told that we are not alone...there are enough happy coincidences... miracles... to show that something else is out there... FOR US !!!

Edited August 19, 2007 by crystal sage

August 20, 2007

But then again... people have been praying to Jesus' mother for two thousand years for help...for love.. for compassion...
I'd say that all that energy directed towards her... the constant calling on her spirit... will bind her to this earth!!!

The love and energy that the spirit has received over the last two thousand years of prayer will strengthen her spirit...

her very nuturing nature during her earthly life... her personality... will not refuse assistance to those who call for her.. were it in her power...

I don't think that God would prevent it...

I think he would have chosen carefully and well... He did after all chose her above all for the birth and nurturing of Jesus...

I don't think that she would object and would actually enjoy working along side Jesus... in helping all those in need on Earth...

She would be working as one of Gods angels...

I think those sightings may not be pretenders....but true energetic manifestations of Mary...

Do you believe in ghostly energies... guardian spirits...??? there are some troubled souls who like to hang around ..or feel impelled to hang around... and then there are those who are attached to the living...who act as guardians... and then there are those who are who have divine missions...who are there to give hope.. enlightenment...love ...compassion...inspiration...

We are always told that we are not alone...there are enough happy coincidences... miracles... to show that something else is out there... FOR US !!!

Of course you are free to believe that, if you want, but what do you base that belief on? Experience?

The question you raised is tricky, since if one follows your line of reasoning, we could deify Mary, just as those same age old Goddesses were deified. It would mean also that they are all the same spirit manifested in different women, which would lead to gnosticism again, albeit mixed with pagan esoterism.

That the titles given to Mary are so similar to those given to these Pagan Goddesses is an indication that there are some in the history of the church that were trying to meld these images into one being, yet they forget that what they are actually doing is practicing deceit of the spiritual kind.

Mary does not have the power to be an intermediary much less act as a messenger. Those roles have already been taken. The 1st by Jesus and the 2nd by the "Malakim" or Angels if you prefer.

The human dead do not communicate with the living and even if they did, that would not be the case for the peaceful dead but for the restless dead. ie, those that have unfinished business, thus Mary does not fit the criteria anyway. She is part of the peaceful dead with all those that are in paradise...

So what is left but a demon? A spiritual being that is trying to decieve mankind away from a pure belief in God and is using age old symbology to do it.

People who have prayed to Jesus mother weren' following Jesus own words on the matter. Pray to God in the name of his mediator, Jesus, not in the name of his human bodys' mother. It would be like praying to the pink unicorn and hoping for a miracle.

Edited August 20, 2007 by Jor-el

August 20, 2007

I think you can judge the spirit by it's results.... Much of what I've heard about Mary is that she has brought a lot of peace and comfort... as well as a few miracles... so can this spirit be bad???

No... and .. say if you finally passed over...and had a chance to be playing pool or smelling roses in heaven.. or being reborn in another time or place... or go back and help lost hurting earthlings..from a world where they still revere remember your child fondly.... and of course her child.. too gladly spends much of his time trying to help his fellow man... wouldn't you too?? It would be like a family project..???

If you could help even a fraction of what the soul energy of Mary could... seems to be doing now... even if it is placebo...(faith hope) ... wouldn't you???

When people now ask for your help... or you see people hurting.. don't you want to help them if it is at all possible???

Or we could see it as just good manners... many people are mentally writing... praying to her for guidance.. or thanking her for bringing Jesus to earth..and doing such a good job of raising him.... can she in all honesty just ignore them??

Remember... God did say that All Prayers will be answered...

Edited August 20, 2007 by crystal sage

August 20, 2007

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/mindex5.html

http://www.tanbooks.com/doct/mysteries_marvels.htm

http://www.ourladyweb.com/news.html

The early Church Fathers saw Mary as the "new Eve" who said "yes" to God as Eve had said no. The non-canonical Gospel of James, written around 150, is an example of early devotion to Mary, advocating her perpetual virginity. Mary, as the first Christian Saint and Mother of Jesus, was deemed to be a compassionate mediator between suffering mankind and her son, Jesus, who was seen as King and Judge. Biblical support for this position was found in the story of the Marriage at Cana whereat Mary entreated Jesus to turn water into wine (Gospel of John, Chapter 2). Elizabeth's praise of Mary "blessed art thou among women" and "who am I that the mother of my Lord would visit me?" in Luke 2 are also cited, among other passages of Scripture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessed_Virgin_Mary

Devotion to the Virgin Mary as the "new Eve" lent much to the status of women during the Middle Ages. Women who had been looked down upon as daughters of Eve (first woman), came to be looked upon as objects of veneration and inspiration. The veneration of Mary both as woman and prototype of the Church was greatly responsible for transforming the Germanic Warrior code into the Code of Chivalry. This reinterpretation of women flowered in the Courtly Love poetry of Medieval and Renaissance France. Mary, as the original "vessel of Christ" may have also influenced the legends of the Holy Grail. Her selflessness, obedience and virginal humility were reinterpreted in the literary figure of Sir Galahad, finder of the Grail.

It appears that The Virgin Mary helped absolve Womenkind for the rumored disobedience temptress reputation of Eve!!!!

What better than an obedient virgin who unquestioningly does God's bidding!!!

Another reason for women who are feeling downtrodden to ask for Mary's help... surely she could intercede for them???

So in a sense both Jesus and Mary were destined to work together... in a dualistic symbiotic sense... note the number of Virgin and baby statues...

Jesus was given the mission of absolving Man's /Adam's original sin... and Mary ... Eve's part in this....

Were any other prophets... sons of God given the same mission... of absolving the original sin???? I can't recall hearing of any...

Many were called here to spread..light...knowledge and wonders of spirit..love..and teaching ideal ways to live one's life...some were able to perform supernatural feats...enough to amaze and entertain and attract followers, and get them to stick around long enough to listen to what they have to say... other's became leaders/rulers...so people had no choice but to listen .,. and so these messengers rulers...didn't really have to buff up their personality..and play nice with the masses...

Edited August 20, 2007 by crystal sage

August 20, 2007

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/mindex5.html
http://www.tanbooks.com/doct/mysteries_marvels.htm

http://www.ourladyweb.com/news.html

It appears that The Virgin Mary helped absolve Womenkind for the rumored disobedience temptress reputation of Eve!!!!

What better than an obedient virgin who unquestioningly does God's bidding!!!

Another reason for women who are feeling downtrodden to ask for Mary's help... surely she could intercede for them???

So in a sense both Jesus and Mary were destined to work together... in a dualistic symbiotic sense... note the number of Virgin and baby statues...

Jesus was given the mission of absolving Man's /Adam's original sin... and Mary ... Eve's part in this....

Were any other prophets... sons of God given the same mission... of absolving the original sin???? I can't recall hearing of any...

Many were called here to spread..light...knowledge and wonders of spirit..love..and teaching ideal ways to live one's life...some were able to perform supernatural feats...enough to amaze and entertain and attract followers, and get them to stick around long enough to listen to what they have to say... other's became leaders/rulers...so people had no choice but to listen .,. and so these messengers rulers...didn't really have to buff up their personality..and play nice with the masses...

I see, so you prefer to use your own rationale to justify this position, wheras the bible has a specific postion that is, shall we say, contrary to yours.

The fact that you equated the various names of Goddesses to Mary and I agree with that position should be a clear indication that what is being talked about is not the mother of Jesus but rather a deceiving spirit that has existed for millenia (and existed before Mary was even born), whose latest incarnation is simply the mother of Jesus...

She was 1st known as Inanna, then Isis or Ishtar, then Aphrodite but is most well known as Venus.

She is also venerated under other names today, namely Gaia or Mother Earth, among others...

August 20, 2007

I think there is little doubt that the "virgin birth" story was adopted from the very popular Isis cult and attributed to Mary. This helped do away with attacks on Jesus with regards to his questionable paternity, and made him more accessible to a Hellenized world--a world that expected great men/heroes to be of divine deliverance.

linked-image

VS

linked-image

Sean

Edited August 20, 2007 by seanph

August 20, 2007

Ultimately a lot of the classical world was develped into common religion / myth. Movement of trade and people helped move such tales, stories and the like by word of mouth.

It is isn't co-incidence either that humankind enjoys tales of god-like heroes / divine beings wrestling back evil for the good of the little guy. It's a common scenario that exisits even today in film etc.

The question of how a similar link of the females in many differing religions and times correlates is done much in the same way. It is believed that the Templars believed in a Godess named Sonia / Sonya. Hence why many confessed under torture (but that's another topic).

I think that the collective interest of most peoples of the world tend to forge similar stories, not through similar experience, but through similar existence.

August 20, 2007

I think there is little doubt that the "virgin birth" story was adopted from the very popular Isis cult and attributed to Mary. This helped do away with attacks on Jesus with regards to his questionable paternity, and made him more accessible to a Hellenized world--a world that expected great men/heroes to be of divine deliverance.

VS

Sean

Then what luck for christianity that Isaiah spoke of the "virgin birth" before it happened, that way they have a biblical basis for pulling that one out of the hat so to speak.

I have said many times that parallels and similarities don't make the objects being compared, the same, at most one can say that there are similarities and even then, not necessarily related.

August 20, 2007

How about this, if it rings true, you are not too far from the truth with this thread.

the catholic church is a thinly veiled ancient sun cult dating back from the time of the egyptans.

the virgin birth of Jesus is a direct retelling of the Egyptan legend of Horus, only the names have been changed. look at the vestoments priests wear, emblazined with the coptic cross but before that symbol was the egyptan symbol ankh meaning life.

Look at the eucharistic chamber on any alter its the shape of a blazing sun, and what is a halo its a sun disc.

look at Rome and look around look at all the oblesks,the ultimate symbol of sun worship, they are all genuine Egyptan obelisks transported to rome by pope Sixtus v,and erected in front of every major church in Rome including the Basilcia, there are more oblesks in rome than any other city in the world.

At the end of every prayer you say Amen derived from Amun the most powerful god of ancient Egypt.

Ive no links as this was told to me by word of mouth, i havent had time to really check it out yet.

August 20, 2007

How about this, if it rings true, you are not too far from the truth with this thread.
the catholic church is a thinly veiled ancient sun cult dating back from the time of the egyptans.

the virgin birth of Jesus is a direct retelling of the Egyptan legend of Horus, only the names have been changed. look at the vestoments priests wear, emblazined with the coptic cross but before that symbol was the egyptan symbol ankh meaning life.

Look at the eucharistic chamber on any alter its the shape of a blazing sun, and what is a halo its a sun disc.

look at Rome and look around look at all the oblesks,the ultimate symbol of sun worship, they are all genuine Egyptan obelisks transported to rome by pope Sixtus v,and erected in front of every major church in Rome including the Basilcia, there are more oblesks in rome than any other city in the world.

At the end of every prayer you say Amen derived from Amun the most powerful god of ancient Egypt.

Ive no links as this was told to me by word of mouth, i havent had time to really check it out yet.

And you may be right in and as far as it goes with the catholic church, but you can't say the same for christianity and christianity is not the catholic church...

August 21, 2007

Then what luck for christianity that Isaiah spoke of the "virgin birth" before it happened, that way they have a biblical basis for pulling that one out of the hat so to speak.

The Evangelist made a simple mistake. And Isaiah was not referring to a virgin birth of a coming Jewish Messiah in 7:13-14 and 9:6. Why? Because the Jewish Messiah is not supposed to be born of a prepetual virgin, be divine, crucified, die, resurrect etc. The Jews have made this abundantly clear. This is a Christian invention. Even Paul, whose epistles are the earliest books in the NT, mentions nothing of a virgin bitrth. In fact, he makes it abundantly clear that Jesus was "born of a woman!"

Again ...

Messiah: The Criteria

Judge for yourself: Did Jesus fulfill ALL these criteria?

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/jews-jesus/j...esus-index.html

Virgin birth ...

Although Matthew and Luke both go to great lengths to make Mary's virginal status clear, the whole question of the Virgin Birth is one more case of mistranslation. Way back in the prophecies of Isaiah, there were many references to a coming Savior. The author of Matthew would have used the Greek translation of the Hebrew prophet Isaiah in which the coming of the Messiah is prophesied. Once Isaiah talked about a son being born to a young woman (see page 225) ... In other words, Isaiah never prophesied a virgin birth, and he wasn't even talking about the Messiah when he prophesied the birth of a child to King Ahaz of Judah. But to fulfill the mistranslated prophecy, the author of Matthew believed that Jesus must be born of a virgin. Since neither John, Mark, or Paul in his writings discuss the Virgin Birth, some theologians have suggested that this aspect of Jesus' birth was a later invention, as with the relocation of the birth to Bethlehem, to fit the Nativity events into a prophetic scheme. Once again, the entire episode of Jesus' birth reminds readers that the Bible is a work of faith, not history or biology.--Don't Know Much About the Biblle, Davis, Kenneth, C., P., 361

AND ...

A little more on the VB ... Isaiah 7:13-14 and 9:6 are unquestionably linked. These verses refer to one King Ahaz who is surrounded by his enemies. And to make a long story short ... Isaiah is sent to provide a sign. What's that sign? A women already pregnant, will give birth to a son yadda, yadda, yadda ...

Read this in it's entirety ...

Bible Gateway: Isaiah 7:13-14

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_...&version=31

Again, Isaiah 7:13-14 has nothing to do with Jesus! It is to be read in context with Isaiah 9:6.

Also ... First, when was Jesus ever referred to as Immanuel? Did Mary give him this name? Second, why doesn't Isaiah simply say "... And will call him Jesus?" Third, this is the most widely known guffaw of "Christian prophecy" ! The Hebrew word "almah," which means "young woman" or "maiden," is mistranslated here as "virgin." The Hebrew word specifically meaning "virgin" is "bethulah!" Can you say D'OH! The Gospel writers got it seriously wrong--along with just about everything else!

AND ...

Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language (Ernest, Klein, Carta, Jerusalem, 1987):

*Almahâ"--marriageable girl, maiden, young woman.

*Bethulah"--virgin, the constellation Virgo ...

AND:

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:

VIRGIN, VIRGINITY

vur'-jin; vur-jin'-i-ti:

(1) bethulah, from a root meaning "separated," is "a woman living apart," i.e. "in her father's house," and hence "a virgin." Bethulah seems to have been the technical term for "virgin," as appears from such a combination as na`arah bhethulah, "a damsel, a virgin," in Deuteronomy 22:23,28, etc. An apparent exception is Joel 1:8, "Lament like a virgin bethulah .... for the husband of her youth," but the word is probably due to a wish to allude to the title "virgin daughter of Zion" (the translation "a betrothed maiden" is untrue to Hebrew sentiment). and the use of "virgin" for a city (Isaiah 37:22, etc.; compare Isaiah 23:12; 47:1) probably means "unsubdued," though, as often, a title may persist after its meaning is gone (Jeremiah 31:4). The King James Version and the English Revised Version frequently render bethulah by "maiden" or "maid" (Judges 19:24, etc.), but the American Standard Revised Version has used "virgin" throughout, despite the awkwardness of such a phrase as "young men and virgins" (Psalms 148:12). For "tokens of virginity" ("proofs of chastity") see the commentary on Deuteronomy 22:15.

AND:

And even the ultraconservative quack Josh McDowell states in his ETDAV that there: "... are only two Hebrew words that could have been use, "bethulah" and "almah." Bethulah means virgin, while almah means young woman of marriageable age..."

... Many of the stories about Jesus contained in these ancient documents [Gospels, canonical and not] Father Kannengiesser says, were tales commonly applied to mythical figures and heroes of the time. It was almost obligatory to have such stories available, the theologian says; they were stock stories told to convert people to Jesus. Tales of virgin births, divine heroes, and miracles workers were relatively common 2,000 years ago and simply did not mean what they do to us today.--Kerry Temple (PhD), Editor, Notre Dame Magazine

AND:

... This is where we see a variation on the Jewish practice of creative borrowing from ancient writings, for virgin birth was not a tradition in Jewish history. No Jewish story or legend spoke of the coming Messiah being born of a virgin. But there were dozens of precedents for divine-mortal coupling and virgin birth in Greek culture. Many Greek heroes were sired by gods, either through old-fashioned penetration or something more grandiose, such as ...--Gospel Truth, Shorto, Russell, pg. 27-8

AND:

Although all of these religious claims seem remarkable to the modern reader, none of them would have astounded the average citizen of the early Roman empire. Stories of heavenly portents, miraculous healings, mystical visions, and even resurrections were told about a number of demi-gods or heroes. In fact, a number of supernatural phenomena were even attributed to certain philosophers and emperors.

SOURCE: Religion in the Roman World (Mary Bonz, Harvard Theological Review)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh.../religions.html

And you may be right in and as far as it goes with the catholic church, but you can't say the same for christianity and christianity is not the catholic church...

But the RCC was the first Church--and still the largest. It is through their hands that you have your Bible and traditions. Protestantism is the younger child. If one is wrong ... so is the other.

Kindly,

Sean

Edited August 22, 2007 by seanph

August 21, 2007

The Hebrew prophet made a simple mistake. And Isaiah was not referring to a virgin birth of a coming Jewish Messiah. Why? Because the Jewish Messiah is not supposed to be born of a prepetual virgin, be divine, crucified, die, resurrect etc. The Jews have made this abundantly clear. This is a Christian invention. Even Paul, whose epistles are the earliest books in the NT, mentions nothing of a virgin bitrth. In fact, he makes it abundantly clear that Jesus was "born of a woman!"
Kindly,

Sean

The Hebrew prophet made a mistake... :huh: , then.. hmm, that would mean he wasn't a prophet and his book shouldn't be in the bible... I'm sure the church should be told of this right away....

but, then again maybe he didn't make a mistake and it is the scholars who can't seem to get their minds around the fact that things panned out as the prophet said they would...

And who said anything about the Messiah being born of a perpetual virgin?!!! :wacko: Don't mistake catholic dogma for christian biblical interpretation, its the same thing when it comes to the rest of Jesus' brothers who are recorded in the bible, the catholic church refuses to accept that Mary had more children and in the natural way that all women do, after all how could the hymen have remained intact after giving birth to a child, as we know in Jewish tradition, that is the indicator of virginity albeit a fallacious one.

Mary was a normal woman, she wasn't pure and without sin, she was just a woman who wanted to serve her God in faith..., because of this alone, she was chosen, the bible is also abundantly clear that after having given birth, her special role was over...

While many catholics might dispute that, that is exactly what the bible demonstrates... and if God wanted to have been born in an immortal body he would not have chosen the avenue of being born human, that is the whole point.

But the RCC was the first Church--and still the largest. It is through their hands that you have your Bible and traditions. Protestantism is the younger child. If one is wrong ... so is the other.

Untrue... if one is wrong it doesn't make the other wrong as well... the reason is the methodology used to interpret scripture, I'm sure you are familiar with the scholarly terms like "Sola Scriptura"...

Sola scriptura was a foundational doctrinal principle of the Protestant Reformation held by the reformer Martin Luther and is a definitive principle of Protestants today (see Five solas)

Sola scriptura may be contrasted with Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox teaching, in which the Bible must be interpreted by church teaching, by considering the Bible in the context of Sacred Tradition.

And here is the kicker... Sacred tradition also includes much of pagan tradition...

Edited August 21, 2007 by Jor-el

August 22, 2007

The Hebrew prophet made a mistake... , then.. hmm, that would mean he wasn't a prophet and his book shouldn't be in the bible... I'm sure the church should be told of this right away....

No worries. They'll just continue to ignore the obvious.

...but, then again maybe he didn't make a mistake and it is the scholars who can't seem to get their minds around the fact that things panned out as the prophet said they would...

Pardon me ... But what I meant was the Evangelist, not prophet. Correction made. And the prophet wasn't speaking of Jesus as pointed out above. Nothing "panned out"--save that yet another messiah-figure got himself crucified. But you continue ignoring the obvious as well.

Untrue... if one is wrong it doesn't make the other wrong as well... the reason is the methodology used to interpret scripture, I'm sure you are familiar with the scholarly terms like "Sola Scriptura"...
Sola scriptura was a foundational doctrinal principle of the Protestant Reformation held by the reformer Martin Luther and is a definitive principle of Protestants today (see Five solas)

Sola scriptura may be contrasted with Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox teaching, in which the Bible must be interpreted by church teaching, by considering the Bible in the context of Sacred Tradition.

And here is the kicker... Sacred tradition also includes much of pagan tradition...

And I thought God was not the author of confusion? Hmmm ...

Sean

Edited August 22, 2007 by seanph

August 22, 2007

Pardon me ... But what I meant was the Evangelist, not prophet. Correction made. And the prophet wasn't speaking of Jesus as pointed out above. Nothing "panned out"--save that yet another messiah-figure got himself crucified. But you continue ignoring the obvious as well.

It seems the Jews of the time didn't mind since it was never a point of contention in the Gospel records. I think if it were a point of contention, this would be apparent. ie; alot more detail on the matter than what is currently there.

Nothing panned out you say... very well Shaun, give me the actual interpretation of said prophecy and its intended recipient as per the writings of Isaiah.. that should clear up the issue... and on a personal note I would prefer your opinion rather than a quote by some other doctor...

And I thought God was not the author of confusion? Hmmm ...
Sean

And who said that the giant heirarchy we know today as the RCC was authored by God?

It is common knowledge that God never liked institutions like the one we see today... Jesus reviled them...

Goddess... Mari... Mary... Maria... Isis..

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